I don't know if anyone has done this before but it came to me as quite possibly the best method for maintaining the tarp tension, tarp position, and avoiding extra ropes on the trees.

Very interesting, but the picture is not coming up very clear and I'm not sure I quite understand.

Are you saying:
1: hammock suspension thru tree huggers in normal fashion, but before making knot/lashing
2: rope back to and thru tarp loop and
3: then knot suspension rope?

Or, are you saying to
1:hang the hammock in normal fashion
2: run a separate tarp line from the tree hugger thru the tarp loop
3: tie off tarp line to hammock suspension rope

As I read it again, I think you are saying the latter, is that correct? Or is it something entirely different.

Also, is this theory or have you already tested this and found it to work well?

Apologies for my denseness, thanks in advance for clarifying.
Bill

Took me a couple of passes, but agree it is definitely the latter. The idea is that the tarp be suspended by its own line, but affixed also to the suspension line so that when the suspension line drops with the occupant, it pulls down the tarp too.

Not seeing any reason why this shouldn't work....could be made to work even with less cord, if instead of having the tarp cord doubling back to the tarp, you used a separate small length to adjoin the tarp corner to the suspension line.

Grizz

, you used a separate small length to adjoin the tarp corner to the suspension line.

Grizz

maybe the prussik setup that is stock on an HH?
or a tensioner could work too.

sorry for the delayed response, our block lost power for a couple hours.

the intent is the later.

hang the hammock normally. then run a single line from the tree hugger to the tarp and down to the suspension line.

could use a seperate peice instead. wouldn't save any line but would make the distance from the tarp ridge to the hammock ridge adjustable.

The other thing is as the hammock drops and pulls the tarp down with it, it also tends to increase the tension on the tarp ridgeline (with some losses due to friction at the tarp tie out loop, using a mini biner or descender ring or similar would reduce the friction losses there.)

And yes I think it would still work with prusiks or similar to the suspension lines.

I actually think its pretty slick idea.

Downside would be managing drips/wicking might be more complex, and it may affect your effective ridgeline length.

i think i'll give it a try with my stock HH tarp to see if it solves the sag issue.

if it does then when i make my custom cat tarp i'll include the little descender rings

Would it not put undue pressure on the lines tying the tarp to the trees by adding your weight to line that isn't designed to hold that much weight? Or would your tarp D-rings (or whatevers) fail under the strain?

I'm not understanding the concept here.

Would it not put undue pressure on the lines tying the tarp to the trees by adding your weight to line that isn't designed to hold that much weight? Or would your tarp D-rings (or whatevers) fail under the strain?

I'm not understanding the concept here.

the tarp lines aren't carrying your weight. only a fraction if the downward force would be transfered to the tarp line to keep it tight despite stretch or wet expansion.

on a hammock without a ridgeline the adjustment might be more tricky or you could use shock cord between the tarp and hammock suspension.

Your weight (or most of it) is still going to be supported by the hammock suspension lines. Only a very small amount is going to be applied to the tarp lines. Ideally just enough to keep it tensioned.

By varying the length and attachment point of the tarp lines you can vary (somewhat) how much of your weight is on the tarp lines. No matter what happens it'll never be a significant portion of your weight (unless the hammock suspension lines fail.) Even 1.5mm spectra lines will support your weight so if you're really concerned use something like that for the tarp... If that unusual situation were to occur probably the tie out on the tarp would be the failure point.

I was picturing it being tied tight to the hammock support lines. I could see disaster happening if you tied it really tight and then got in your hammock.

Not that I would know anything about that or anything. :rolleyes:

What about the side tie outs for the tarp? If you pull the tarp down from the top wouldn't it cause slack in the sides?

What about the side tie outs for the tarp? If you pull the tarp down from the top wouldn't it cause slack in the sides?

i think this will work.

tarp tied to huggers or ring binders or biners or even the hammock susp. line - but out near the ends.

then with a second line (or tensioner) pull the tarp down to the hammock susp. line.

use tensioners on the ground stakes anyways... as they take up the slack when it rains and snugs things up during stretch.

I'm liking this and will try it out next time I get my gear out, this weekend I hope.

I have a brand spanking new HH hex tarp that came along with the netless Safari that I knew I didn't need (but I needed that tarp. ha!) It needs to be hung.

Grizz

I'm liking this and will try it out next time I get my gear out, this weekend I hope.

I have a brand spanking new HH hex tarp that came along with the netless Safari that I knew I didn't need (but I needed that tarp. ha!) It needs to be hung.

Grizz

Hey Grizz,
If you try this, can you take a pic so that we challenged folks will be able to see
this in picture form :^)
Thanks,
Michael

Ok. I can see it better now that the original picture is not in black with red lettering like it was. White with blue lettering makes it much easier to see and read.

Hey Grizz,
If you try this, can you take a pic so that we challenged folks will be able to see
this in picture form :^)
Thanks,
Michael

sure. I'm a shutterbug.

Grizz

I'm liking this and will try it out next time I get my gear out, this weekend I hope.

I have a brand spanking new HH hex tarp that came along with the netless Safari that I knew I didn't need (but I needed that tarp. ha!) It needs to be hung.

Grizz

this weekend for me too.
i'll have the stock Asym tarp.

compare and contrast. :)

this weekend for me too.
i'll have the stock Asym tarp.

compare and contrast. :)

think I'm going to try it out tonight or tomorrow using the stock HH tarp. i'll post pics.

If I understand you correctly, I've done some thing very close to that before. If you use prussiks on the hammock supports, you'll run into the same issue as the HH style - the attachment points actually get closer together as you weight the hammock, and the tarp sags. So you have to use an attachment that slides...I used minibiners from the tarp grommet to the hammock support. It worked ok...kept the tarp close to the hammock at that end (I only did one end that way).

This method also causes the top of the tarp to get closer to the ground as you weight the hammock. I used tensioners on the side tie-outs, and they took up enough slack that the tarp stayed taut.

at this point, wouldn't a wider tarp be a simplier solution?

a set up like this eliminates the problem:

http://www.jacksrbetter.com/index_files/DSC00306%20-%2011x10%20Cat%20Tarp%20-%20Tent%20-%20%20web%20large.JPG

at this point, wouldn't a wider tarp be a simplier solution?

a set up like this eliminates the problem:

http://www.jacksrbetter.com/index_files/DSC00306%20-%2011x10%20Cat%20Tarp%20-%20Tent%20-%20%20web%20large.JPG

will be...
but there is the simplicity of keeping everything on the same line.

the tarp lines aren't carrying your weight. only a fraction if the downward force would be transfered to the tarp line to keep it tight despite stretch or wet expansion.
.

how much force, depends on how tight the tarp is initally strung and how far the hammock sags, and what kind of line used, nylon would stretch and reduce the force on the line, but, unless there was tremendous drop of the weighted hammock, 1-2mm spectra strung tight would probably work fine.

good idea by the way

yes bmike...but...it is getting to the point where soon someone will devise a complex block and tackle setup with multiple pulleys that allows you adjust your hammock tension and tarp position by pulling and releasing lines strung through the pulleys and attached to loops at the side of your hammock - all of which can be adjusted without leaving your hammock. Moreover someday you'll be able to drape your hammock over yourself, attach foot and head ends to trees, and then manipulate the various ropes and pulleys until you and your tarp are in a perfect horizontal position.

which got me to thinking, lets get chris angel to devise levitation trick where he goes from standing up with a hammock draped over his head and shoulders, to lying perfectly flat. then we pay him $125 for instructions on how to do the trick and we have our system!
http://www.penguinmagic.com/product.php?ID=1232

If that unusual situation were to occur probably the tie out on the tarp would be the failure point.

definately

you could also make the short line that connects the pull tab to the main suspension line the weak link on purpose, this way you don't risk damaging anything but a few inches of line

how bout that 50# test spectra fishing line?

And is it possible to use a tarp with a mosquito protevtion?

been thinking on this.

i think for better results i'm going to run the tarp line through my ring buckles (without threading) then along the suspension line to the prussik hook (stock HH). pull everything tight as usual, and when I get in, the sag in the hammock will pull the tarp tighter, as the hammock drops, the length of the tarp line needs to get longer... pulling it tight. might work slick with a tensioner on there too.

this doesn't do much for keeping the tarp tight to the hammock... so for coverage you'll want a larger tarp - but this should tighten things up as you sag. tensioners on the land lines will help too.

but, this is all moot if one ties to the trees first, gets a nice tight tarp with some tensioners for rain / dew... :)

yes bmike...but...it is getting to the point where soon someone will devise a complex block and tackle setup with multiple pulleys that allows you adjust your hammock tension and tarp position by pulling and releasing lines strung through the pulleys and attached to loops at the side of your hammock - all of which can be adjusted without leaving your hammock. Moreover someday you'll be able to drape your hammock over yourself, attach foot and head ends to trees, and then manipulate the various ropes and pulleys until you and your tarp are in a perfect horizontal position.

which got me to thinking, lets get chris angel to devise levitation trick where he goes from standing up with a hammock draped over his head and shoulders, to lying perfectly flat. then we pay him $125 for instructions on how to do the trick and we have our system!
http://www.penguinmagic.com/product.php?ID=1232

agreed. i'm waiting for someone to start making custom hardware for this like in the 'figure 9' thread. :eek:

http://www.grainger.com/images/products/enlarged/XL-3AY60.JPG
couple of these mounted inside the hammock and you'd be all set. never have to worry bout 'stretch' either.

Don't worry the wheels are turning already.... :D

Why not, for the sake of simplicity, just preload the hammock with the side tie outs.

been thinking on this.

i think for better results i'm going to run the tarp line through my ring buckles (without threading) then along the suspension line to the prussik hook (stock HH). pull everything tight as usual, and when I get in, the sag in the hammock will pull the tarp tighter, as the hammock drops, the length of the tarp line needs to get longer... pulling it tight. might work slick with a tensioner on there too.

this doesn't do much for keeping the tarp tight to the hammock... so for coverage you'll want a larger tarp - but this should tighten things up as you sag. tensioners on the land lines will help too.

but, this is all moot if one ties to the trees first, gets a nice tight tarp with some tensioners for rain / dew... :)

Sitting in a hotel room hundreds of miles from home it is a bit frustrating not to be able to pop out into the yard and try this stuff out.

If I understand the scheme above, the arrangement is illustrated by the attachment, yellow lines being the tarp lines.

If that's true, then the only difference between this and tieing the tarp to the prussik lines is that the tarp is positioned lower---it is equivalent to tieing off the tarp lines to the rings. The tension on the tarp line will decrease when you get in, just as it does if you use the prussiks w/o rings.

Now pre-tensioning can help as BillyBob pointed out after reading the instruction manual, and having the tarp lower may be a good thing. But I don't think this will work in the same way as the original idea, which will I'm pretty sure tighten the tarp line.

time for my complimentary bowl of cheerios...

Grizz

Sitting in a hotel room hundreds of miles from home it is a bit frustrating not to be able to pop out into the yard and try this stuff out.

If I understand the scheme above, the arrangement is illustrated by the attachment, yellow lines being the tarp lines.

If that's true, then the only difference between this and tieing the tarp to the prussik lines is that the tarp is positioned lower---it is equivalent to tieing off the tarp lines to the rings. The tension on the tarp line will decrease when you get in, just as it does if you use the prussiks w/o rings.

Now pre-tensioning can help as BillyBob pointed out after reading the instruction manual, and having the tarp lower may be a good thing. But I don't think this will work in the same way as the original idea, which will I'm pretty sure tighten the tarp line.

time for my complimentary bowel of cheerios...

Grizz

Griz, we are all hoping you meant "bowl" of Cheerios! :D ;)


I've been having trouble understanding how this will not have more or less the same effect as tieing to the HH prussick sliders as in the original design. In both cases, it seems, as the hammock heads south, the tarp goes with it. With the advantage that the hammock stays close to the tarp ridge for more rain protection. With the disadvantage ( in both cases?) that the tarp gets closer to the ground stakes and thus loosens up.

But I am probably missing something, and I just need to get out there and try it out. Anybody tried it yet?

The original suggestion is quite different than the one dGrizzz is talking about above.

In the original suggestion as the hammock lowers it pulls line from the tarp tieout. So as it lowers the tarp it also tightens the tension along the tarp ridgeline as the triangles that are created require more line length than the straight line they were in when tied.

I'll try to get to it tonight and take some pics...

Don't know whether this has already been discussed and/or whether it should be a separate thread...but, does anyone attach a length of thin bungee type cord to their tarp tie downs? If pulled tight to the stakes, it might help take up any slack that occurs when the hammock pulls the tarp down. Just a thought.

Called tensioners, and they're made a few different ways. you can check here (http://www.tothewoods.net/HomemadeGearTarpTensioner.html)for one way... with links to a second...

Or if you dig about you'll find still others on the forums.

The original suggestion is quite different than the one dGrizzz is talking about above.

In the original suggestion as the hammock lowers it pulls line from the tarp tieout. So as it lowers the tarp it also tightens the tension along the tarp ridgeline as the triangles that are created require more line length than the straight line they were in when tied.

I'll try to get to it tonight and take some pics...

exactly, in theory.
i even threw it into an FEA program last night - the additional cords that tie the tarp to the hammock susp. line do go into tension as the triangle opens ip - so they should pull the tarp a bit tighter.

...but... if this were a truss, the tarp theoretically becomes a compression member (a small one, in this case with fixed points holding things up). this is what happens in the normal setup - but without tensioners there is no way to tighten the tarp. (if the tarp were rigid enough it would keep the hammock from sagging when you got in)

theoretically with the proposed setup the tension added to the tarp line might overcome the 'compression' along the tarp ridgeline when you get in the hammock to overcome the sag. angle of attachment and length of cord probably play into how successful this could be.

i don't have values programmed for spectra or lines, or silnyl, so i modeled it using steel pipe and applied a large load to get the deflection moving in the right direction. :)

can you tell i was yak shaving last night and didn't want to work?

exactly, in theory.
i even threw it into an FEA program last night - the additional cords that tie the tarp to the hammock susp. line do go into tension as the triangle opens ip - so they should pull the tarp a bit tighter.

theoretically with the proposed setup the tension added to the tarp line might overcome the 'compression' along the tarp ridgeline when you get in the hammock to overcome the sag. angle of attachment and length of cord probably play into how successful this could be.

Definitely plays into it, especially if you think of it all starting at full tension/zero sag... Consider the following situations.. 1)Tarp line goes from tree to tarp then back towards the tree a short distance before attaching to the hammock suspension line... 2) Tarp line goes from tree to tarp then dies to hammock suspension line at the nearest adjacent point... 3)Tarp line runs from tree to tarp then continues a short distance away from the tree before attaching to the hammock suspension line.

In case 1)The short line back introduces some extra slack that actually LOOSENS the tarp in the initial phases of sag, until the vertical sag distance at that point exceeds the length of the short line.

In case 2) Any sag of the hammock immediately tensions the tarp line as the sum of the two sides of the triangle is longer than the original length. And can put considerable tension on the tarp.

In case 3) The line tensions the tarp more gradually as the portion from the tarp to the suspension gets drawn down closer and closer to perpendicular to the suspension line. Once that point is reached it becomes maximal for increase in tension with increasing sag.

See attached pdf for illustration of before and after.

If the tarp is connected to the hammock supports, it does not tension when occupied. It does the opposite - the points where the tarp are connected get closer together in the horizontal plane, creating sag in the tarp.

Another thing I've done is run the hammock support through the MacCat D-rings, like you're proposing. Then I ran a tensioner from those D-rings to a higher point on the hammock support to keep the tarp tensioned all the time. It worked ok. I found it was more complication than it was worth and I lost the ability to change the tarp's height or position with the weather...and more importantly, I could no longer set up the tarp first in rainy weather, then unpack under a dry tarp to set up the hammock. Or to set up the hammock with no tarp at all. That's the main reason I gave up the system.

In the end, I decided to follow the KISS principle - store the tarp on the outside of my pack for quick access in bad weather and to let it dry, then set it up separately and only when needed. But that's just what works for me based on my style - I certainly think the experiments were worth the time and effort, though.

Be sure to post pics of what you come up with.

If the tarp is connected to the hammock supports, it does not tension when occupied. It does the opposite - the points where the tarp are connected get closer together in the horizontal plane, creating sag in the tarp.

I would amend the above to say

If the tarp is connected only to the hammock supports, it does not tension when occupied.

If the tarp ends are attached to the tree, and a connection is made between the tarp line and the suspension, the effect when the hammock is occupied is the same as if you grabbed the tarp line at two points and pulled it down. The distance a given length of tarp line now travels between its two tree connection points gets longer, so the tarp tightens up. The same is true if the tarp line goes from the tarp, to the tree, back to the tarp, and then down to the suspension line (the original proposal). Connecting to the tree gives the tarp line the outside frame of reference needed to avoid the sag.

Indeed I'm more concerned about pulling the tarp too tightly this way than I am that it sags.


Be sure to post pics of what you come up with.
Just part of drill around here sir :) A picture is worth a thousand words. Some of give you the thousand words too, for free!

Grizz

True statements, Grizz - I agree. :D

I don't know if anyone has done this before but it came to me as quite possibly the best method for maintaining the tarp tension, tarp position, and avoiding extra ropes on the trees.

I've been tieing the tarp line to tree huggers for a long time but I never thought about re-looping it back to the tarp and tying it to the hammock line...nice idea...I think I'm gonna try that...

by the way, I clicked on the picture to bring it up then clicked it again to enlarge it and make the turquoise lettering easier to read...

Experimentally learned lesson of yesterday : owing to the idiosyncrasies of my DIY bridge, there isn't anything to be gained for me by attaching the tarp-line to the suspension line.

I've got a structural ridgeline, the tarp goes over it. The tension on the tarp from the stake-outs keeps the tarp on the line, even when I'm in the hammock. I do clip a micro-biner from the tarp ring to the ridgeline just to prevent the tarp from being pulled too far to one side or the other.

The main reason to consider pitching the tarp below the ridgeline would be to make a snugger shelter in case of weather. However the wide hiking poles as spreader bars limit how closely I can pull in the sides, so the tarp stays where it is in the picture.

Grizz

after some experimenting this weekend i've decided that its impossible to get the stock asym hennessey tarp ridge tight. I believe it has to do with the fabrics thread orientation.

the fabric is run diagonal and the hemmed straight edge all the way around. almost every fabric will stretch diagonally do the thread grain. the hemmed edges don't stretch much at all. so when tightening the tarp the outer edge gets tight long before the ridge area gets close and i just can't get it any tighter.

i'm going to have to make a cat tarp to try this with.

--

side note.. i did notice that this systems effectiveness is affected a lot by the length of rope between the tree and the hammock as well as the length of the hammock vs length of the tarp. so it could work etremely well for some setups but not at all for others.