Any brave souls going to experiment with Vapor Barriers this winter?

[BillyBob58]

I am copying some posts from the thread about trying to insulate a HH Safari. The discussion had drifted off into VBs and I was afraid I was Hijacking so I am just starting a new thread here. But, new subject is: winter is coming. Very few folks ever try VBs, maybe for good reason. I plan to add to my previous very successful testing. Any one else? Here are the posts from other thread just to get it started:

+1 on Arrowhead Equipment, their Jarbridge is used by many with great success beyond the quilts rating of 20*. I've used the HHSS below 20* but the fiddle factor and adding a vapo barrier makes a quilt very appealing. Plus the Jarbridge is $100 with little bulk and weight penalty over the HHSS.

I like to add VBs to UQs! Well, that is not really true YET. I have only added VBs to my down PeaPod, a form of UQ. But I would not hesitate to add one to an UQ, and someday no doubt will, either in the form of a space blanket or my newest cold weather hobby, wearing VB clothing. In fact, I have had such good results with the latter that it is most likely that next time I am using an UQ, unless it is just too warm, I will have VB clothing.

EDIT: I forgot to add that the WB Yeti UQ used to have an optional radiant/Vapor blocker that snapped on or off. Must not have been very popular because I think it was discontinued, but I would have bought that option in a heart beat.

I know I will be experimenting this winter and reading the post here of what's working for the real cold weather warriors and experts here.

I have yet to spend the time to research VB clothing enough to have a good handle on best practices. I always enjoy the expertise in your post.

Well thanks for the kind words. But let's face it, I am a bit odd it must be admitted! Not only one of the few HHSS fans, but with or without HHSSs increasingly a VB fan, more so every winter! One of the very few of that group! However, if young Fronkey would just post more about his VB experiences, I wouldn't feel so alone. but I understand: he is after all a newly wed so he has better things to do than post here about VBs, and I totally understand that!

I've successfully used vapor barriers as part of my system as high as the low forties, and I'm a sweaty guy. The trick is to use them as a "near-to-skin" layer rather than a "next-to-skin" layer. I usually place a thin layer of either nylon (the hammock body) or wool (socks) between me and the VB. But, and this is a big "but", testing is even more important with VB layers than anything else: since the potential to completely wet out your sleeping insulation is there if you screw up, it behooves one to test somewhere where bailing is an option.

I've done it both to extend the temp rating of my socks (vegetable bags over my hiking socks at the 4th Annual Hang; it got down to 23* F) and to allow me to use a non-breathable UQP without loss of loft in my down underquilt (a space blanket between the hammock and my underquilt; the winds for that night were forecast to be 30+ MPH at 41* and I use a tiny asym tarp). Both times were unqualified successes.

(response to FLR)WhoooBuddy, another VB brother! Happy to know of one more belonging to our small group! What I love about your report is I think it is from FL, which is not the kind of frigid and dry cold most folks would think of using a VB in. I have also done some VB clothing experiments in north MS hiking in or working in the yard when it was not all that cold, maybe 30s and 40s, or even up to about 50?, with fine success. I just used the VB to replace one or more usual layers. Or sometimes the VB shirt was my only layer on top. I have had an occasion where I ignored the over heating I felt, did not bother to vent or remove, and sweated like a pig, if pigs sweat. Then again, I can't say I never sweat working hard in breathable layers, but it might not be as immediately obvious as a lot of it is being soaked up by my insulation.


Words of wisdom right there. Understand the theory and test it with bail out available. And have that thin for comfort layer between skin and VB, but nothing else. But, I think the best(though ugliest) piece of gear for the $ I have ever bought is my VB shirt and socks from Stephenson's Warmlite(SP?). With Fuzzystuff. So no added thin layer needed. Might be lighter also than sacrificing a separate thin layer. I have never been as warm or dry with so little(or even with a good bit more) as I was last year in my VB test at 6F.



Right, no loss of loft with a non-breathable UQP by using a space blanket right under the hammock, AKA HHSS! I know the system very well! It has worked without fail for me for 8 years now. How was your comfort, or sense of being damp or clammy? I guess it was OK if "Both times were unqualified successes".
Dejoha has a real nice report about the time he was hiking way up high on the San Francisco Peaks of N. AZ, and it was looking like he was going to flirt with hypothermia that night, even though the temps were within the quilts ratings. Since the chance of rain was about zero, he rigged his tarp as a VB and slept toasty instead.

It (VB) is a really unpopular approach, maybe the most unpopular. It probably is a great contributor all by itself to the low popularity of the HHSS. But obviously for a few folks it works like a charm.

[gunner76]

Very good info. If it ever gets cold enough around here I plan to try a VB while in my backyard testing site so if does not work I have place to escape to. I think the main thing to remember is that you need to test the setup you plan to use.

[BillyBob58]

Very good info. If it ever gets cold enough around here I plan to try a VB while in my backyard testing site so if does not work I have place to escape to. I think the main thing to remember is that you need to test the setup you plan to use.

Yep, test when no harm can come, whatever needs testing. No telling what useful thing you might find. I'm sure most of us, even if we might consider using a VB, don't need any kind of VB most of the time. Like if your insulation is more than warm enough for the expected temps. And if you feel sure that there is no danger of losing loft over a multi-day gray, rainy no sun trip, from condensation or sweat accumulation in the insulation. If that is the case, then why bother with a VB?

But, if all of the above does not apply, blocking evaporative cooling(swamp cooler effect) and preventing condensation in the insulation can be very helpful. Or if you just need to boost the warmth of the insulation you have for some reason or another.

But of course, unlike just adding more insulation, adding a VB and using it wrong can make matters much worse. Change it from a big plus to a big negative! I guess that is just one more reason why most folks just don't even consider it, and probably a good reason.

In the hammock world, there is a common misuse of VBs: the HH Super Shelter used without the space blanket/VB. But this still leaves a VB in the system, the sil-nylon undercover(UC). For some reason, folks that try this system are often very reluctant to use the recommended SB/VB. That leaves them with the worst case scenario VB, the UC VB on the outside of all insulation. So evaporative cooling is not stopped at the skin level and continues to do it's nefarious thing. But then the vapor is stopped by the outer layer VB/UC, stopped in the insulation, condensing there, leaving a damp or wet pad. And people are cold even sometimes at 40 or 50F.

I have used it OK without the SB somewhere in the 40s, years ago, I was barely warm enough if memory serves(I think my legs were a little cold). I don't remember being wet that time. This encouraged me not to bother with the SB another time, and I woke up with soaked feet and bag and pad both in the foot area. Surprisingly, still wasn't cold, HH pad and bag were synthetic maybe that's why.

But so far, over many years, as long as I have that SB the 1st layer under my HH hammock, I have remained completely dry and so has all of my insulation. But, I know there are some others who have done the same and gotten wet, I don't know what the difference is.

[DuctTape]

In the deep cold I use a VB, CCF when the mercury really drops in the cold NY winters. I do negative twenties F regularly in the colder parts of our winter. Still haven't had the opportunity to go to the neg thirties.

[BillyBob58]

In the deep cold I use a VB, CCF when the mercury really drops in the cold NY winters. I do negative twenties F regularly in the colder parts of our winter. Still haven't had the opportunity to go to the neg thirties.

Do you use any VB other than the CCF pad? If just the pad, do you stay dry?

[DuctTape]

No VB against the skin, but I have also used a sunshade reflector between me and the ccf. Stayed warm and dry. To use a VB and stay dry requires one to ensure they don't overheat. This is usually the cause of many peoples wetness, they overheat and sweat. This is why I use pads in the serious cold, not when it is just chilly. Many try the ccf in the 50's and 60's and get wet because the ccf is too warm. They assume that pads don't work, I would argue it was too warm to use ccf. Some naturally produce more insensible perspiration than others too. YMMV

[dirtwheels]

BillyBob I know I am looking forward to learning new and effective ways to stay warm. Share away!

[IRONFISH45]

Thank you for consolidating some of the information on VB, I am still working on using them effectively. For me, my SS has worked better than my UQ and QP, with the exception of getting the SS pad wet as in rained on. If that pad had gotten wet on a Hang, it would have been a major problem. The pad absorbed a huge amount of water and held it, in the places where it was exposed to the rain. I found it interesting that the water did not spread out, it just held in place, pressing the water out by gently wringing and then pressing out with large towels was the only way to get the water out, just hanging it did not work.

I have found VB clothing to work very efficiently for me. Also I layer the heck out of myself, so I can remove or add as needed.

Since I have zero idea what I am doing, I made a TQ and added a VB across the shoulder area that is where I need to be positive to keep my body warm. I have not tried it out yet in Winter weather. I tested it out a couple of weeks ago when it dropped down into the 20's, it appeared to be adequate, I was toasty warm, my UQ system was not adequate at all, luck for me I goofed making the TQ it was too wide for use in a hammock, I just wrapped the TQ around me like a cocoon, that made up for the things my UQ lacked. I will have to make major improvements to the UQ and suspension.

[Xdbass]

Thankyou the whole vapor barrier idea has always confused me. I do use a ccf when it is cooler out(below 30 degrees). Have not gone below twenty degrees yet. Still pondering if I want to or not.

[Black Wolf]

Yes ........