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  1. #11
    Senior Member NWAlabamaHiker's Avatar
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    Good point. I've been trying to figure out how to mark top and bottom of shell and line them up properly. As with many of the projects I've done, there will, no doubt, be a lot of planning that will probably all change to modifications on the fly once I get started!
    I'm going to do some more reading, planning and studying until I get my head around things a little more.
    If anyone else has any suggestions or have found any other guides/instructions, please let me know! Thanks
    Two heads are good, three are great, but all heads at hammockforums is the best case scenario!

  2. #12
    Dutch's Avatar
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    Since I have been thinking about this there should be a way to have a multiplier that works. Let's assume the differential is only one direction although you could argue it is 2 directions. But for simplicity sake the outer shell has to be X wider than the inner shell. I have used in the past with standard baffles 6 inches on the inside and 7 on the out side. If we kept that same ratio the outer shell would be 1.17 proportional to the inner shell. So if I am on the righte path, and I may very well not be, you could figure out where the outer baffle is located from center by multiplying the distance from center by 1.17 and make the outer shell 1.17 times the inner shell (plus the height of your baffle for the end)

    Am I off base on this? Man I want to make a Karo quilt.
    Last edited by Dutch; 03-08-2015 at 00:46.
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  3. #13
    Senior Member NWAlabamaHiker's Avatar
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    Pros/Cons Karo Step Topquilt

    That makes sense, but I'm going to have to think about it for a little while to fully wrap my head around it. Maybe I'm going to have to put this all down on a spreadsheet and do some figuring. I seem to be more of a visual thinker, so it helps for me to see the calculations in front of me. I've got spreadsheets upon spreadsheets about this stuff. I've got a spreadsheets that I made with about every option I can think of, various fabrics, different fill powers of down, various baffle material, etc from different suppliers complete with costs and shipping. All I have to do is use check boxes to select my options and it will calculate the total cost and weight with the different options! But I digress...
    I appreciate your input and your products (just placed my order a few minutes ago).
    I'm also trying to decide whether to put draft stoppers on the sides or not. I'm still obviously thinking through things, so any additional input is much appreciated!
    Last edited by NWAlabamaHiker; 03-08-2015 at 07:09.
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  4. #14
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    I'm in Alabama too. About to start on a karo underquilt. I have some Argon 67 (ripstop) and Membrane .66. Aside from the grid pattern, there's not a real noticeable difference between the two. I have a Revelation (karo) 40 degree topquilt I bought from Enlightened Equipment a few years ago. I've used it a good bit and the only time I had any issue with it was a trip where it was in the mid 40's but windy. That had more to do with the shell fabrics not being as wind proof as needed and too be fair, I probably didn't pick the best campsite location (west side of Cheaha is a wind magnet). It wasn't that big a deal. EE has moved to a different material (Phantom) in their newer stuff that blocks wind better. I had it 1 oz overstuffed and that really helps keep the baffles in place. Being able to shift down has been useful a few times. I don't have any cold spots. I was going to make my UQ following the same 9/6 pattern (9" box with 6" walls) as my topquilt. As for diff cutting, I'm not going to get too hung up on trying to make the seams line up in the center of the quilt edges. I think if I make my outer shell width equal to a little less than my needed loft plus the width of the inner shell, it should work. I can't imagine using one of the diff cut calculators would be too far off what I might need to measure when adapting tubes to karo. Is there much difference in 8, 9" wide karo baffles running the same direction as a 9" wide tube baffle? If one of the resident math wizzes can jump in and show differently, please do. Karos have the benefit of having walls in both directions, so any shift from the width should be minimized. By the time I hang it, it's going to compress a little along the channels which should allow gravity to shift the down toward the bottom.

  5. #15
    Member G Maurice's Avatar
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    Does anyone have any experience with Enlightened Equipment KARO quilts?
    "The clearest way into the Universe is through a forest wilderness." John Muir

  6. #16
    Senior Member NWAlabamaHiker's Avatar
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    Pros/Cons Karo Step Topquilt

    Ok this is my thinking, someone please jump in and tell me if I'm wrong. I can definitely understand the need for differential cuts on a down underquilt. The suspension, once you lay in the hammock, could cause areas of compression. This seems like it would be much less of an issue on a topquilt since it's just lofted up on top of you. There isn't really anything "pulling" it downward around you to compress it as much (unless you wrap yourself up in it- in which case why not just have a sleeping bag ) If you sleep with it pulled down very tightly around your sides, I guess this could be an issue, but once again, I'm in Alabama and not going to be taking it down to real cold temps. I'm thinking off making my inner shell wider than outer shell to create some draft stoppers to kind of tuck in around me and I think I'll cut outer shell wide enough to create a sort of boxed outer edge.

    If I decide to have a differential in my karo boxes, I think what I may try would be to mark off and sew my baffles to the inner shell and then literally take a box (made from cardboard?) And make it slightly taller than my baffles are. Then I can place this box on the floor on top of the inner shell and start draping my outer shell over it and pinning it to my baffles. Once I have baffle pinned, then sew it and repeat. This will cause the outer shell part of the karo box to be slightly larger than the inner shell part of the karo box directly beneath. If I'm thinking right, this will give me dual differentials on the karo step boxes.
    Does that make sense at all?
    Last edited by NWAlabamaHiker; 03-08-2015 at 14:06.
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  7. #17
    Senior Member NWAlabamaHiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G Maurice View Post
    Does anyone have any experience with Enlightened Equipment KARO quilts?
    I don't, but it sounds like heycorb does! (See his post above)
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  8. #18
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    This thread is awesome - I've been contemplating a 40 degree Karo TQ for 3 season use.

    Differentials are only necessary where the quilt has to change plane, or for a sewn-through design where tension would flatten the baffle chamber. On a flat surface with a baffled design, any differential only serves to increase the height of the center of the baffle chamber. You could achieve the same average loft depth by eliminating the differential and increasing the baffle height - tension across the inner layer will not flatten the chamber anyway. When the quilt needs to change plane, the radius of the change and the depth of the quilt determines the differential.

    For an underquilt, the catsplat calculator assumes that there are no real flat planes - the quilt is calculated as a 270 degree arc (or thereabouts). That isn't how it fits in use though - we have flattish almost-planar areas under our bodies, and the quilt suspension pulls the excess quilt into several planes around us. The plane changes are concentrated around the edges of the torso, and that is really where we need that differential. Coincidentally it is also where we need air-sealing to prevent drafts. Fortunately the catsplat design is good enough to make quilts that work for a wide range of environments, but I suspect that when the limits of a quilt are pushed that it is those areas that are felt first - hence posts here about cold butts or cold shoulders.

    I'm intrigued by some of the modern sleeping bag designs that have ergonomically designed baffles, and how some of those ideas could be applied to hammock quilts. I bet that we could make quilts that were more thermally efficient per oz by designing bigger differentials where they needed to be and smaller ones where they did not. For a major manufacturer to do that in a sleeping bag is an obvious profit decision - 3oz of expensive down x 10000 units is a good ROE on the design time. For hammock quilts there other considerations though. Firstly, it takes experience to get a consistent hang, and an quilt that was ergonomically optimised would be exposed by a bad hang. Secondly, one of the freedoms that I enjoy in my hammock is the ability to stretch out or roll around without feeling constrained. Optimising a quilt would need to allow for that movement still.

    I got slightly OT, but I see Karo baffles as a potential tool in such quilt designs. I'm not sure that I buy into the whole "I can shift down around for comfort" idea, although for filling purposes it is a big win. Build for seasonal warmth, vent or expose an arm or leg to cool. We do that in our sleep anyway and our physiology allows for adaptive cooling. The idea of shaking down from one part of the quilt to another in the middle of the night seems like a recipe for sleep-deprivation to me.

  9. #19
    Senior Member NWAlabamaHiker's Avatar
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    Pros/Cons Karo Step Topquilt

    Quote Originally Posted by genixia View Post
    This thread is awesome
    First of all, thanks! I appreciate everyone's feedback and ideas!

    Quote Originally Posted by genixia View Post
    I'm intrigued by some of the modern sleeping bag designs that have ergonomically designed baffles, and how some of those ideas could be applied to hammock quilts. I bet that we could make quilts that were more thermally efficient per oz by designing bigger differentials where they needed to be and smaller ones where they did not.
    I agree it probably would be possible, but....

    Quote Originally Posted by genixia View Post
    I enjoy in my hammock is the ability to stretch out or roll around without feeling constrained. Optimising a quilt would need to allow for that movement still.
    I, like you, enjoy the ability to be able to move around however, whenever I want in my hammock and I think it would be impossible to optimize a UQ for every scenario. Therefore we have what we have. Underquilts that work for most scenarios!
    As far as this goes,
    Quote Originally Posted by genixia View Post
    The idea of shaking down from one part of the quilt to another in the middle of the night seems like a recipe for sleep-deprivation to me.
    I can't say because I've never used one, but the ones who have seem to like it!
    Last edited by NWAlabamaHiker; 03-08-2015 at 16:07.
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  10. #20
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    Yes. Excellent quality. If you aren't going to build one yourself, call Tim Marshall at EE.

    For a 40 degree quilt, you probably don't need to try and make an anti-draft system. Make your quilt wider and that gives you everything you need. My Revelation is 50" wide lofted. If you're a bigger guy, go with 54" lofted. Any wider than that and you won't be using the lighter materials. The 50" gives me plenty to tuck in. The underquilt will be your primary windblock.
    Last edited by heycorb; 03-08-2015 at 16:42.

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