The Ember's out, anyone getting it?

[Cannibal]

attrezzo, don't know what your experience is so I won't presume to assume (gotta love a rhyme this early ), but many of us have a bad taste in our mouths from some industrialization in the hammock industry. Tends to stagnate a product line for too long IMO.

Besides, I think the main point among the gritches is that there was no need for 2 things they did with this release.

1. They didn't take proper advantage of all the work that's already been done. They released a heavy, by any standard, piece of gear that doesn't need to be as heavy as it is right now.

2. They announced it's upcoming release almost a full year before they actually let it go and that includes putting it off several times because they claimed to be refining the design.

Both of those issues, to me, are inexcusable for a company like ENO. Does it take a good step towards taking all this stuff mainstream? Sure. But, why they choose to do it in the manner they did is still confusing to me. They could have released a competitive product that could still be priced in the lower end and they darn sure could have done their homework better, especially in light of all the "R&D" time they supposedly put into it.

So yeah, after all the chatter about it and the constant postponement of it's release, we were kind of expecting something, kind of, well, a little better. We're disappointed, at least I am. I was looking forward to getting one and I still may at some point far down the road, but it was at one time, near the top of my 'next purchase' list. I see no point in rewarding companies for mediocracy.

[attrezzo]

@Cannibal. I'm not saying you should guess at my experience. I'm not experienced. That's what I meant. This will be my first uq so I have nothing to compare it to or any knowledge to draw on from design aspects. I have not worked with diy uqs other than reading about them. So I'm starting at square one.

Industrialization brings costs down. That's how Henry Ford made his bucks and that's why people do it. I disagree that it will stagnate the entire industry, there will always be diyers, there will always be new innovative designs, and granted the ember is not one of them. What it is, is an obvious attempt to make a cheap, durable, wal-martish quality item. The 'stagnation' occurs because of perspective. One day there will be lots of cheap uqs of questionable quality and there will be a few really well made sleeping bags of superior quality, just like any other piece of equipment. People see "stagnation" because the cheaper items are usually the older models of questionable quality, and they're not willing to pay for the research and innovation of the shiny new model that's probably 50%-100% more. You can still diy, and if you can convince other people that you're new awesome product is worth the money they may buy it. But that's the way it works. I'm HAPPY there's a new el-cheapo uq on the market because I can convince more of my buddies to take the plunge than would normally be possible.

On your first point, I agree. It's not innovative and it's outdated compared with what's on this forums. But I've priced a diy dream quilt and it's worth well over a hundred dollars in material, tools, and time. Like I've said before what you don't pay for in dollars you pay for in comfort. I doubt this is a winter bag, if it is, I doubt many backpackers would be happy with in their packs for too long before they'd move on to something lighter/better. I don't think it was meant to be innovative, it was meant to be a baseline and create a market. They want hammocks used year round, this is the first step into that realm. A cheap, '3-season' piece of equipment that makes their other products more useful and wets the industry for better things yet to come. If it's a colossal failure they'll have invested a minimum of interest and capital in a cheap design. If not all the better. It's all business. This is how that part works.

On your second point. Marketing is marketing. It's meant to appeal to the widest audience possible, not just zealots like us that sit on the hinge of the latest/greatest. They're trying to catch the eye of not only avid hangers, but the occasional hanger, and casual outdoorsmen. To do that the old mantra is to "stick it in their eye". They are not the first, nor will they be the last, company to hype up a mediocre product for over a year before actual release, just so they can get a few more people to casually buy one and use it five or six times.

As far as their reasoning for the delays. They lied. I sincerely doubt there was much r&d as a problem. At least not as we think of it. It's more likely they delayed because they had supply problems, or quality problems, or legal issues, or any number of other issues that come up when you mass produce a product. More nefariously, it could have all been a marketing ploy.

Both of those issues aren't spectacular in one way or the other to me. It's a typical big company scenario. That's what ENO is now, the big company. I guess I don't see that as a bad thing.

You may not award them for mediocrity, but I award them for price competitiveness. 20%-33% below base cost is a good start for a product that's a month old. I can see how someone with a KAQ wouldn't be impressed. Why should you be? They're selling a beetle and you have a ferrari. There's a lot of beetle owners out there though, and I'm sure that's what's on the mind of the folks at ENO.

@Arson

Of course the people here are great! I love this forum! They're completely within their right to say whatever they like! I just think it's logically a little hasty to say this is an awful product even though no one seems to have one yet.

Do I like it? I honestly think that deserves a proper review. I haven't got it out in any weather lately, and I'm not hardcore enough to get out there on christmas or anything but I'll be happy to do a writeup in the coming months. So we'll see about that. I don't want to be a hypocrite so let me answer that with a well formed response.


At this point. All I can conclusively say (from my research) is that this is the cheapest production uq available. Correct me if I'm wrong.
We can also say, that this is at least better than a sleeping bag, and in some people's opinion better than a pad.

The facts we have yet to know are, temp ratings, loft, and function.

The opinions we have yet to form are comfort, and utility.

I'll let you know after a good field test in a review. All the while feel free to hate, or love however you please. Logical or no, it makes no difference to me.

[KerMegan]

@ But I've priced a diy dream quilt and it's worth well over a hundred dollars in material, tools, and time. .

have you compared your "dream quilt" (DIY > 100$?) to the retail cost of a quilt w/ similar charateristics?
I think what I am asking here is are you comparing apples to pecans?
ie the DIY cost of a quilt comparable to the ember would likely be much less than 100$, (Syntheric, weight, temps?) while the 100+$ DIY dream quilt might be 250-400 at retail...
Just trying to understand.. KM

[Cannibal]

I'm not experienced. That's what I meant. This will be my first uq so I have nothing to compare it to or any knowledge to draw on from design aspects. I have not worked with diy uqs other than reading about them. So I'm starting at square one.

You've got me there and you do raise a valid point about perspectives.

Industrialization brings costs down. That's how Henry Ford made his bucks and that's why people do it. I disagree that it will stagnate the industry, there will always be diyers, there will always be new innovative designs, and granted the ember is not one of them. What it is, is an obvious attempt to make a cheap, durable, wal-martish quality item. The 'stagnation' occurs because of perspective. One day there will be lots of cheap uqs of questionable quality and there will be a few really well made sleeping bags of superior quality, just like any other piece of camping equipment.

Ahh, Henry Ford. An interesting comparison, but you are also comparing something that had a universally practical appeal to something that is used by a bunch of fringe lunatics (proud to be one). Totally different markets and the demand for hammock accessories will never equal demand for something like a vehicle. The stagnation I was referring to is among one manufacturer in particular who went that road. The basic design went unchanged for years and was only changed (I suspect) because they were losing market-share.

On your second point. Marketing is marketing. It's meant to appeal to the widest audience possible, not just zealots like us that sit on the hinge of the latest/greatest. They are not the first, nor will they be the last, company to hype up a mediocre product for over a year before actual release.

But again, I have to point out that there is no wide audience at this point. The groundlings go out of their way in many cases to avoid reading anything about hammocks because hammock hangers are an evil fringe group of zealots who believe they are founding a new religion. Yes, I've seen that said in variations a number of times. As I see it, ENO was trying to appeal to 3 (at best) demographics:

1. Possibly the camping market
2. Climbers
3. Casual Backpackers

The camping market I don't think is going to show any love to hammocks for a few years, but I'll give them credit for trying to get in on the ground floor of that market. Climbers are the traditional target market for ENO. I can see this group having mixed feelings. I'm not a climber, so I don't know if the norm is to camp near both the climbing area and parking, or if they often hike in. Still, climbers are probably even more sensitive to the weight of gear than us long distance hikers...and that's saying a lot. So, in that regard, they failed their bread and butter customers. Casual backpackers are probably their best bet as they don't know enough yet to know better.

I hope you don't believe that I think ill of ENO as a whole. I very much like their hammocks and the service I've received from them. I'm very curious about several of their new catalog products from 2009 and I really, really wanted the Ember to be a success. However, if you're selling hammock stuff, you really probably ought to design, market, and sell to the group most likely to use your equipment because they are the ones that are going to be doing the 'mainstreaming' of your gear to the general public. If you sour the users, they aren't going to spread the word.

I would most definitely read your review of the Ember once you get a chance to use it in some cold/cool conditions. I spend a good part of my free time helping get people like you into the idea of hammock camping, so entry level gear used by newly elevated hangers is of great interest to me. However, considering a person could spend an extra $5 to get a proven design like the KAQ, I would be hard pressed to recommend this UQ above a KAQ to one of the people just getting started.

Also, please don't take offense by anything I've said. One of the truly great things about hammock forums is the ability to have differences of opinion (opinions are really all this is about) without hostility or hurt feelings; I intend neither with my posts. I honestly enjoy reading posts from people new to the hammock world as they often see something that I fail to see because I've become so set in my ways. So, keep challenging us with different views. Keeps us from becoming complacent like say maybe, I dunno, a groundling.

[attrezzo]

have you compared your "dream quilt" (DIY > 100$?) to the retail cost of a quilt w/ similar charateristics?
I think what I am asking here is are you comparing apples to pecans?
ie the DIY cost of a quilt comparable to the ember would likely be much less than 100$, (Syntheric, weight, temps?) while the 100+$ DIY dream quilt might be 250-400 at retail...
Just trying to understand.. KM

A DIY might be worth $30 total in materials delivered (shipping incl.). About 2 hours in research and shopping. An hour or two in time to actually make it, I bet I could get a sewing machine on craigslist for another $30. I get paid about $25 bucks an hour so taking that into account, 4x25=$100. So I could have a diy one with some hassle and stress for $160. Subsequent ones for about $80.

So, for $100 bucks I could have one delivered to my door, with a one year warranty, and about 15 minutes of my time. 100+25x.25=106.25. The wife won't complain about my project taking up space, and I don't screw anything up like stitching for the first time.

DIY is for the love, not for the profit. You don't usually save much money on diy for first run stuff. It's fun, it's part of the reason I'm here, but it's not because I want cheap. And it certainly isn't for everyone.

It's easier to convince a buddy to buy an ENO Ember than it is to convince him to diy, or buy a $200 dollar uq. And he's still happier than he was with his wal-mart blue pad.

[attrezzo]

nuts. I need to make these things shorter.

On Ford, a correction, not patronization. Before Ford "roads" didn't even exist. Automobiles were toys for the wealthy and owned by the fringe lunatic tinkerers that could afford them. It was only after the Model A and T that cars became possible for the common man. The entire industry largely owes it's wide scale adoption to Henry Ford.

I don't take an offence to anyone's posts. And I hope the same goes for all of you about my comments.

Again, I only posted to point out that there's an awful lot of scrutiny for a product that hasn't been tested yet. But imho, the price point is a major topic of credit.

PS. A KAQ for $105 ??? where!?!

[KerMegan]

Thank you- seems I had the 'Dream' quilt and the ember in 2 different mental catagories..

[attrezzo]

Thank you- seems I had the 'Dream' quilt and the ember in 2 different mental catagories..

Oh no no, you're right. The ember is not my "dream" quilt. It's going to be 'ol blue'. The standby, the beat up toyota good for most things but not the best race horse.

It seems though that a diy starter version of the ember couldn't easily be done with a good price case. A labor of love maybe, but not a cheap start.

If I wanted super cheap I'd buy a wal-mart sleeping back and put some shock cord in it. Problem solved.

[Cannibal]

PS. A KAQ for $105 ??? where!?!

My bad, I was basing that off of the ENO website price. I didn't account for the secondary market.

Again, I only posted to point out that there's an awful lot of scrutiny for a product that hasn't been tested yet.

But.....that's what we do here!

Actually, it helps when folks are reviewing the piece of gear in question because they already know certain things they need to verify or disprove. Besides, some of us are hopeful that ENO has HF lurkers that will then report some of our concerns to the designers so that the next generation is superior to the current one.

Paved roads didn't exist, but people still had a need to travel from A to B. Ford filled the need with his innovations. Until everybody has a need to hang from trees (which they should!), hammocks won't have the demand. To carry the analogy forward, hammocks would be like the power window option in a car; nice to have, but not really needed. Now, when the day comes that people come to their senses and throw away those big, ugly, back wrecking mattresses, well then we'll see the real value of industrialization in the hammock industry. I patiently await such a day.

Does anybody live near attrezzo that has a KAQ? I'd be interested in hearing about a side to side comparison of the two quilts.

[Arson]

I've done some research on the web. Does the ember completely enclose the hammock like a peapod if desired? That might change some thoughts on the ember if you can ditch your top cover. I couldn't find any pictures of it totally enclosed.