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  1. #81
    Senior Member TeeDee's Avatar
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    solid cylindrical dead man

    Had a thought for another dead man today.

    Since not all anchors are good or best for all soil conditions, another dead man design might be desirable.

    In particular, I was thinking that the washer dead men might not work too good in rocky soil. For rocky soil a solid, pointed cylinder would work better.

    Ideally, I want to use the same 1/4" TI driver for the second dead man also.

    So the following design occurred to me:



    The design uses a solid steel cylinder with three holes drilled in it, one end cut off on a diagonal, say 45 deg. and the other end ground to a point.

    One hole is 1/4" diameter and drilled on the cylindrical axis. The 1/4 driver is inserted in the hole to drive the dead man.

    One hole, at the mid-point between the ends and slightly above the cylindrical axis is for the anchor line. By being slightly above the cylindrical axis, it should be better to pull the dead man horizontal.

    The last hole is for the retrieval line and through the cylindrical axis and at the shoulder of the pointed end.

    Using steel for the dead man, it might be beneficial to hammer the slanted end point to make a slight spur to enhance the ability of the anchor line to pull the dead man horizontal instead of straight back up.

    I think the retrieval line would be absolutely necessary here, since a steel dead man, say 1/2" diameter, would be heavy enough that carrying more than 2 would not be desirable. I'm thinking a dead man 3" tip to tip would be sufficient, but that is based on total ignorance on my part. Since the dead man would be retrieved, the anchor and retrieval lines would probably be steel cable with loops and crimped ferrules.

    It may be that AL could be used for the dead man. Don't really know.

    Either steel or AL, the only real challenge I foresee in making the dead man would be drilling the anchor line hole off-axis.

    Any problems with this design. I think it's probably pretty close to what you have been doing Xexorz.
    Those who sacrifice freedom for safety, have neither.

    Do not dig your grave with your teeth. (Unknown)

  2. #82
    Senior Member XexorZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeeDee View Post
    Had a thought for another dead man today.

    Since not all anchors are good or best for all soil conditions, another dead man design might be desirable.

    In particular, I was thinking that the washer dead men might not work too good in rocky soil. For rocky soil a solid, pointed cylinder would work better.

    Ideally, I want to use the same 1/4" TI driver for the second dead man also.

    So the following design occurred to me:



    The design uses a solid steel cylinder with three holes drilled in it, one end cut off on a diagonal, say 45 deg. and the other end ground to a point.

    One hole is 1/4" diameter and drilled on the cylindrical axis. The 1/4 driver is inserted in the hole to drive the dead man.

    One hole, at the mid-point between the ends and slightly above the cylindrical axis is for the anchor line. By being slightly above the cylindrical axis, it should be better to pull the dead man horizontal.

    The last hole is for the retrieval line and through the cylindrical axis and at the shoulder of the pointed end.

    Using steel for the dead man, it might be beneficial to hammer the slanted end point to make a slight spur to enhance the ability of the anchor line to pull the dead man horizontal instead of straight back up.

    I think the retrieval line would be absolutely necessary here, since a steel dead man, say 1/2" diameter, would be heavy enough that carrying more than 2 would not be desirable. I'm thinking a dead man 3" tip to tip would be sufficient, but that is based on total ignorance on my part. Since the dead man would be retrieved, the anchor and retrieval lines would probably be steel cable with loops and crimped ferrules.

    It may be that AL could be used for the dead man. Don't really know.

    Either steel or AL, the only real challenge I foresee in making the dead man would be drilling the anchor line hole off-axis.

    Any problems with this design. I think it's probably pretty close to what you have been doing Xexorz.
    I tried one similar to this (one of my early revs) but without the pointed end. It used a solid 3/8 aluminum dowel and both ends were cut at 45* angles. I drilled my hole center - this turned out to be a big issue, will explain. The back end was turned on the lathe so it would fit inside and seat on the 1/2" tubing driver. My version did not have a retrieval cable - this will be a welcome addition.

    The problem I had was in getting it to set! Even though I ran my cable in from one side only and then put a swaged stop on the other end they would only set in moist ground and then only occasionally. In dry ground they would come straight back up. I think this is due to the distance from the center of rotation the cable is acting on. Welding a nut to one of these would work really well (or at least it does on the tube versions of it). Another option is to run a bolt through it and then grind / drill the end of the bolt so it acts like a lever - with the cable / rope passing through the drilled bolt end.

    As for drilling the lines off center - I don't think this will be far enough out to rotate/set reliably but I could be wrong. Also you're going to need an end mill to first cut in from the side and then drill down - or a grinder to make it psudo-flat

    A big plus to using a solid anchor is that it is bomb-proof!


    Here is where my mind has really been going with these things:

    Surface area during insertion must be SMALL. This makes driving them in easy and limits the changes of hitting small rocks but opens up design issues such as - How do we keep the moment arm far enough away from the center of rotation to make it set reliably? How to we make it strong enough not to fail once sideways? How do we mount the driver to it and still keep the driver the same or smaller diameter? The list goes on...

    New design in the works sometime next week - Keep it coming, we're getting closer!!

    (Trees? We don't need no stinkin' trees [to hang at least]...)

  3. #83
    in it for the naps oldgringo's Avatar
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    I wonder if your everyday, garden variety toggle bolt might not be adapted. Small diameter...
    Dave

    http://www.uark.edu/misc/xtimber/rna/pattonsbluff.html

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  4. #84
    Senior Member XexorZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldgringo View Post
    I wonder if your everyday, garden variety toggle bolt might not be adapted. Small diameter...
    Very keen idea indeed!

    Perhaps the threaded end could be screwed into the driver a few turns... this would be very positive and prevent deflection. EXCELLENT idea - I'm stealing it (looks around) Dang! Caught!

    EDIT:
    Aw heck I just curbed my own by excitement. You said TOGGLE bolts,.

    They fail under the loads we need - I tried it already

    You did however spawn some serious good idea (or at least that's what I keep telling myself after each failure)

  5. #85
    gargoyle's Avatar
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    http://www.fntpost.com/Products/Berk...+Cable+(Dozen) Hasn't this mouse trap already been built. Seems to me the local trapping community has been over this and we could just buy some pogoanchors from them.
    Ambulo tua ambulo.

  6. #86
    Senior Member TeeDee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gargoyle View Post
    http://www.fntpost.com/Products/Berk...+Cable+(Dozen) Hasn't this mouse trap already been built. Seems to me the local trapping community has been over this and we could just buy some pogoanchors from them.
    True, very true.

    But when I look at the drivers they use, I really wonder.

    Those drivers look to be solid steel and 3/8" to 1/2" diameter rods.

    That is HEAVY, very HEAVY. I seriously doubt my M9 bayonet weighs as much. I hefted a 24" length of 1/2" steel rod. Not bad for lifting it once. Wouldn't want to carry it for days and not use it.

    Now that is a lot weight for something that may or may not be used.

    The trappers have no doubt that they will be using it. Also, they don't need to carry it but maybe once a year.

    Also, the trappers intend to leave the anchors and re-use. Possibly for more than 1 year.

    Leaving that steel cable in the ground can be dangerous to people and wildlife. I don't think that the cables would be welcome on the AT or the PCT or any established trail. Using those would really give hammockers a really bad rep. If people think that hammocks are damaging the trees, then what are they going to think finding those cables????

    Different objectives and different solutions.
    Those who sacrifice freedom for safety, have neither.

    Do not dig your grave with your teeth. (Unknown)

  7. #87
    Senior Member XexorZ's Avatar
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    Hasn't this mouse trap already been built[?]
    Yes - it has! But like Tee-Dee said, our goal is to make one that is practical for hiking/backpacking... and if possible, ultralight backpacking - yet still be durable (and preferably reusable) - and if not reusable at least cheap enough so that the non-reusable bits are acceptable losses.... and must be as LNT as possible... So that means anything left must be invisible and biodegradable.

    Its really a very tall order... kind of like the whole "Light, Cheap, Warm - pick any two) sort of thing...

    The answer is out there - we just need to find it.


    Early man started making tools to survive - it is what "really" separated us from the rest. I guess we just can't stop... not that I'd want to

    Be well,

    Xex

  8. #88
    http://s44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...chors_0001.flv

    Nice video showing how to make DeadMan out of 1/2" conduit.

    Might be nice to add to the discussion.

  9. #89
    Senior Member XexorZ's Avatar
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    Yup - I think this one is in there already somewhere on the thread. It is a great video. Thanks for the bump - and Welcome to the community!

  10. #90
    Senior Member salmonofdoubt's Avatar
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    I'm liking the looks of these:


    http://www.fntpost.com/Products/Fox+...le+%28Dozen%29

    For monopods I'm playing with Carbon fiber and Kevlar Hockey stick shafts. They're long enough, strong enough, and at 9-12oz they are light enough for my purposes. Similar thread here: http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/s...ead.php?t=8938
    A free canoe is better than no canoe.

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