On Hammocks and Patents.

[Ramble On]

Guess we'll find out if he decides to spend the money on defending it in court.

That is really the key here...

A patent is only as good as your ability and desire to enforce it. Enforcing a patent takes $$$, and one must weigh the cost effectiveness of litigation versus flat out proffit margin.

[headchange4u]

You know Tom may be angry at the forums because we disassembled one of his hammocks and posted some instructions on how to incorporate his design features into a DIY hammock. It seems his attitude toward DIY'ers is pretty bad.

[Ewker]

You know Tom may be angry at the forums because we disassembled one of his hammocks and posted some instructions on how to incorporate his design features into a DIY hammock. It seems his attitude toward DIY'ers is pretty bad.

did you have a mouse in your pocket

[headchange4u]

I didn't disassemble anything .

I will take the blame on the tutorial, but it was bound to happen sooner or later.

[Coffee]

I have to agree that Tom puts out a good product. It seemed to me that they out numbered all other hammocks I saw at TD by a lot. But I have to agree with slowhike on this.

Minus all of the the things that slowhike says, which I agree with, what did it for me was when we were talking and saw Tom video tape the other hammocks for sale. I'm not sure his motivation for this, but I'll leave it at that.

[slowhike]

i don't know that tom's aware of the discussion & instruction on making a hh style hammock, but you never know.
don't get me wrong. what i'm saying is nothing against any of tom's hammocks. even though i clearly prefer a top entry type, i'm still greatly impressed w/ the neatness of the HH.
but that's part of my point. tom can't meet every ones needs w/ his style hammock.
and jeff's right in that tom deserves credit for a tremendous contribution to hammocking. no one should make & sell a hh. but most of the things he's trying to control (snake skins & ridge lines in particular) are going to take very little cash out of tom's pocket. might even add to his sales as there's more & more interest in hammocks.
i guess the warbonnet hammocks could be getting into a little bit of a grey area, but i would have to lean in warbonnet's favor because of the differences that are there & in the interest of new designs that meet more people's needs.
in my opinion the ridge line on the new JRB hammock (as well as the ridge line that ed speer changed to satisfy tom) shouldn't be seen as taking anything away from tom.
sorry, but it ticks me off that tom thinks he owns the rights to use any kind of structural ridge line
i'd like to get a confirmation of what tom actually said about DIY ridge lines since i wasn't present. i don't to be part of any propaganda. to much of that in this country as it is
bottom line... why is tom to be so constrictive?
is it in interest of his pocket book... & at the expense of the growing hammocking community? i think so. but maybe if the hammock community speaks out in the right way, tom will come to realize that he's putting the squeeze on something bigger that he.
i hope some of the others that were there had cameras so the rest of you could get a look at the new ridge lines & hammocks that we're talking about. ..tim

[TeeDee]

Well - I don't really agree with everything slowhike wrote. Tom may not be the best ambassador for his products, but he has come up with some great ideas. The integral structural ridgeline alone is totally great - a lot of people here have reported using one on their own DIY hammocks and practically every time a newbie mentions buying another brand, somebody mentions adding a structural ridgeline to it. I have seen nothing but praise for the structural ridgeline. So if Tom wants to protect his turf on that, I think everybody should respect him for inventing it in the first place. Competitors should give him his due and either respect his patents if they are infringing (not saying they are) or license and pay royalties.

Snake skins is another great idea used by a lot of people and a lot of DIYers are making them for their DIY gear. Again Tom is certainly entitled to protect his turf there.

It might rankle the competitors and those who think he should be contributing all of his ideas to the community in general, but he still has to make a living. He makes excellent products and thinks "outside the box" which is sorely needed in any industry.

Patents were put in place so that people would have an incentive for bringing such things to market and doing that is not cheap. Never has been. A LOT of good and excellent ideas never went anywhere because the inventor couldn't market the invention because of lack of money or lack of marketing knowledge. Patents have proven to be an excellent idea and have worked for this country very well for a long time. The patent system lately has not been working exactly the way a lot of people think it should, including myself, but getting mad at people like Tom for patenting his ideas and trying to enforce his patents to keep a competitive edge is NOT the way to make the patent system better. Kind of like "shooting the messenger". Working with your Congressmen and working to enlighten patent examiners about prior art are the best ways to accomplish that. The recent Supreme Court decision on patents will keep a lot of trash patents out of the system and make a lot more void.

So Tom deserves a lot of respect for what he has done for the hammocking community by bringing his ideas to the market. The fact that the ideas are "out there" generates more ideas. He deserves respect for that even if you do not like the guy personally or like his attitude or like the way he protects his turf. I have seen some people disparage Tom because he did patent his ideas instead of contributing them freely to the general public, but mostly I have seen in such remarks a lot of "sour grapes".

[TeeDee]

but most of the things he's trying to control (snake skins & ridge lines in particular) are going to take very little cash out of tom's pocket. might even add to his sales as there's more & more interest in hammocks.

Can you back that up with marketing data and hard facts on how many more people would buy Tom's hammocks?

in my opinion the ridge line on the new JRB hammock (as well as the ridge line that ed speer changed to satisfy tom) shouldn't be seen as taking anything away from tom.
sorry, but it ticks me off that tom thinks he owns the rights to use any kind of structural ridge line

Well maybe he does - have you actually read his patent on the structural ridgeline and are you really competent to make that judgement?? I think that Just Jeff was right, that the courts are the real place to settle such matters if JRB and Tom cannot reach an amicable agreement between them.

why is tom to be so constrictive?
is it in interest of his pocket book... & at the expense of the growing hammocking community? i think so. but maybe if the hammock community speaks out in the right way, tom will come to realize that he's putting the squeeze on something bigger that he...tim

Again, I ask do you have hard facts and data to state that Tom is working at the expense of the hammocking community??

What I'm seeing is a lot of irritation on your part about what Tom is doing and has done. From your irritation you are accusing Tom of a lot of misdeeds and smearing his reputation. And what are you basing your remarks on? I have seen you present no data or facts to base your accusations on.

Slowhike - I respect your participation and contributions to the community a great deal, but I think you should really sit back, calm down, take some really deep breaths and reflect exactly on what you are accusing Tom of having done and whether your making those accusations sits well with your professed beliefs.

[slowhike]

Well - I don't really agree with everything slowhike wrote. Tom may not be the best ambassador for his products, but he has come up with some great ideas. The integral structural ridgeline alone is totally great - a lot of people here have reported using one on their own DIY hammocks and practically every time a newbie mentions buying another brand, somebody mentions adding a structural ridgeline to it. I have seen nothing but praise for the structural ridgeline. So if Tom wants to protect his turf on that, I think everybody should respect him for inventing it in the first place. Competitors should give him his due and either respect his patents if they are infringing (not saying they are) or license and pay royalties.

Snake skins is another great idea used by a lot of people and a lot of DIYers are making them for their DIY gear. Again Tom is certainly entitled to protect his turf there.

It might rankle the competitors and those who think he should be contributing all of his ideas to the community in general, but he still has to make a living. He makes excellent products and thinks "outside the box" which is sorely needed in any industry.

Patents were put in place so that people would have an incentive for bringing such things to market and doing that is not cheap. Never has been. A LOT of good and excellent ideas never went anywhere because the inventor couldn't market the invention because of lack of money or lack of marketing knowledge. Patents have proven to be an excellent idea and have worked for this country very well for a long time. The patent system lately has not been working exactly the way a lot of people think it should, including myself, but getting mad at people like Tom for patenting his ideas and trying to enforce his patents to keep a competitive edge is NOT the way to make the patent system better. Kind of like "shooting the messenger". Working with your Congressmen and working to enlighten patent examiners about prior art are the best ways to accomplish that. The recent Supreme Court decision on patents will keep a lot of trash patents out of the system and make a lot more void.

So Tom deserves a lot of respect for what he has done for the hammocking community by bringing his ideas to the market. The fact that the ideas are "out there" generates more ideas. He deserves respect for that even if you do not like the guy personally or like his attitude or like the way he protects his turf. I have seen some people disparage Tom because he did patent his ideas instead of contributing them freely to the general public, but mostly I have seen in such remarks a lot of "sour grapes".

i understand the need to protect the idea that a person came up with & took to market, but tom uses a fixed structural ridge line not an adjustable ridge line like ed speer was using or an adjustable ridge line made of webbing like the jacks use on there new hammock.
just because he put down the money for a patent on his ridge line, doesn't make it right for him to keep anyone else from using a ridge line.
i believe tom is taking the ridge line thing way to far.
and tom doesn't provide the variations in snake skins that every one needs. some people need bigger snake skins that slide over an under quilt & possibly a top quilt. they may need longer skins. some people are experimenting w/ the snake skin made of bug net. but tom doesn't provide those so anyone that doesn't have the DIY skills or hasn't even seen those options (because they haven't found this site) never know about those options.
BTW... at trail days 2005, i told tom about my idea of the bug net snake skins. he was very interested & asked me to give a brief description of that idea along w/ my name on his tape recorder. so i did.
a lot of people like the way the hh lays but don't like the permanent bug net & bottom entry. it would be great if tom were willing to hear the hammocker's that would like to see a model that had a net that could be removed & even replaced w/ dwr treated 1.1 like headchange's great design. but i have serious doubts... mater of fact i'd hate to think the way tom would rake headchange (& others) over the coals for messing w/ his design.
tom is not just protecting his ideas & designs, but he is trying to hold on to a larger part of the hammock market that he owns. ...tim

[slowhike]

Can you back that up with marketing data and hard facts on how many more people would buy Tom's hammocks?



Well maybe he does - have you actually read his patent on the structural ridgeline and are you really competent to make that judgement?? I think that Just Jeff was right, that the courts are the real place to settle such matters if JRB and Tom cannot reach an amicable agreement between them.



Again, I ask do you have hard facts and data to state that Tom is working at the expense of the hammocking community??

What I'm seeing is a lot of irritation on your part about what Tom is doing and has done. From your irritation you are accusing Tom of a lot of misdeeds and smearing his reputation. And what are you basing your remarks on? I have seen you present no data or facts to base your accusations on.

Slowhike - I respect your participation and contributions to the community a great deal, but I think you should really sit back, calm down, take some really deep breaths and reflect exactly on what you are accusing Tom of having done and whether your making those accusations sits well with your professed beliefs.

if i tried to read those patents i'd be asleep in no time.
i'm basing what i say on something they don't seem to be teaching in our "places of higher learning"... common sense & decency.
and yes it does line up w/ my beliefs as a Christian. a large part of what's being done by lawyers & judges in our court rooms has nothing to do with what's right. i hate confrontation, but sometimes you just have to speak up about what's going on & that's why i'm am. ...tim