Difference in specific hammock fabrics

[sqidmark]

I've read a few threads on this topic already, but nothing that quite answered my questions.

My wife and I have Dutch's 11' Netless in Hexon 1.0 and as of last night Dobby 1.9. Both with Knotty mods. We haven't slept in the Dobby yet but our initial impressions are; though we both like the overall feel of Hexon 1.0, in comparison it seems to lack lumbar support where the Dobby is a huge improvement.

My wife has major back and hip issues and last weekend she spent 1-1/2 nights in the Hexon and got up in agony. She'll sleep test the Dobby this weekend, but after only briefly swapping back and forth she declared the Dobby the winner for her back/hips. We'll see.

BTW, we have almost no experience in hanging, in fact we're going through the process of deciding between ground and hammocks. No tarps or quilts yet, just hanging in the garage. We did meet with George Carr last week to learn about his Loco Libre quilts. Thanks George!

Our use is for backpacking primarily in warmer weather. The combination of light weight, breathability, and now lumbar support are attributes most favored. Dobby is certainly not the lightest and from what I've read, the least breathable. It may turn out that Dobby is the only one that works for my wife, regardless of breathability, but I NEED something that breathes.

So my questions are about the relative differences in various fabrics regarding the attributes listed above (I don't need the fabric weights of course). We are about 5'4", 140-150lbs.

1. By what percentage is Hexon 1.6 more firm than 1.0?
2. By what percentage is Dobby more firm than 1.6?
3. All of the above vs PolyD 1.2
4. How breathable is PolyD?

Ideally, I'd like to find something with the lumbar support of Dobby but the breathability and lighter weight of Hexon. Since PolyD is relatively inexpensive, I may just go ahead and grab 4yds as a first DIY.

What about the idea of a short 2nd layer to cover just the butt/lower back area? Hexon 1.0 for both main and short layers, or 1.0 main and 1.6 short layer? I've never seen how a double layer is constructed but I assume sewing should only occur at the side edge hems, not (across) anywhere in the hammock body, yes?

Thanks.

Tim

[hutzelbein]

I'll try to answer a couple of your questions. For the record, I don't have any health issues, but I get back aches when the hammock fabric has a certain amount of stretch. So far I haven't found a nylon hammock fabric lighter than 1.9oz that I could use in a single layer without getting back pain.

My wife and I have Dutch's 11' Netless in Hexon 1.0 and as of last night Dobby 1.9. Both with Knotty mods. We haven't slept in the Dobby yet but our initial impressions are; though we both like the overall feel of Hexon 1.0, in comparison it seems to lack lumbar support where the Dobby is a huge improvement.

This is not surprising because the Dobby is a polyester-nylon mix (polyester has very little stretch) AND it's heavier/stronger. My guess is that your wife won't find a 1.0oz nylon fabric that provides the kind of support she needs. She would need to test different fabrics to see how light she can go.

The combination of light weight, breathability, and now lumbar support are attributes most favored.

That's tricky, because from my experience, the amount of support is tied to fabric weight. In my book, a good night of sleep is worth a couple more ounces. And we're talking only about maybe 3-5oz difference.

Dobby is certainly not the lightest and from what I've read, the least breathable. It may turn out that Dobby is the only one that works for my wife, regardless of breathability, but I NEED something that breathes.

I have never had breathability issues with any hammock fabric. Granted, all hammock fabrics are synthetic - which means that they will never feels as good as e.g. cotton or silk. But if you don't use a coated fabric, it should breathe.

So my questions are about the relative differences in various fabrics regarding the attributes listed above (I don't need the fabric weights of course). We are about 5'4", 140-150lbs.

1. By what percentage is Hexon 1.6 more firm than 1.0?
2. By what percentage is Dobby more firm than 1.6?
3. All of the above vs PolyD 1.2
4. How breathable is PolyD?

I doubt you will get a satisfactory answer to those questions because any answer is highly subjective. There are plenty of people who say that 1.6oz Hexon has very little stretch. But for me it's still way too much. You will have to try the different fabrics to see what works for you.

Ideally, I'd like to find something with the lumbar support of Dobby but the breathability and lighter weight of Hexon. Since PolyD is relatively inexpensive, I may just go ahead and grab 4yds as a first DIY.

I wouldn't use the 1.2oz PolyD for a single layer hammock. It's very thin, and I have read at least 2 reports about failures. This is not what you want when you're having trouble with your back already... Rather get 1.4oz PolyD. If that's sold out, Ripstopbytheroll just launched a 1.6oz polyester ripstop that might be an alternative. The 1.4oz PolyD has extremely little stretch. So much so, that it is uncomfortable to many.

Your wife might want to try the 2.4oz Hexon. It feels really substantial under my back, providing a lot of support. Otherwise, a 1.0oz Hexon double layer hammock would probably also work.

What about the idea of a short 2nd layer to cover just the butt/lower back area? Hexon 1.0 for both main and short layers, or 1.0 main and 1.6 short layer?

This would do nothing for support. In order to provide support, the fabric needs to be directly connected to the suspension. Double layer hammocks are made from one large rectangle folded in the middle. Both layers carry the weight.

I've never seen how a double layer is constructed but I assume sewing should only occur at the side edge hems, not (across) anywhere in the hammock body, yes?

You don't even need to connect the sides. Just the ends (head/foot). A short tack in the middle of the sides helps to keep the layers from separating when you enter the hammock. But once you are in the hammock, the layers stay in place, even if they're not connected.


One last thought: are you using any bottom insulation at all, at the moment? If your back is already damaged, warmth (or the lack thereof) can make a huge difference.

[Bl@ckbird]

^ what he said.... I got Hexon 1.6 in a gathered end and bridge. There is some stretch but I weigh 220 lbs. someone you're weight I doubt would feel much stretch.

[Typicalsloan]

I just got a 1.6 Hexon from dutchware and haven't had much time in it but I feel very little stretch if any. I weight 130 Lbs so that is probably the reason.

[hutzelbein]

Well, I'm 135 lbs and my back feels the stretch in the 1.6oz Hexon. As I said, it's a very personal thing. Also, if you hang a 1.6oz and 2.4oz Hexon side by side, you will notice it clearly.

[Brewguy]

Hey just another thought on this. If you're not using pads or under quilts perhaps it is the cold getting to her back more so than the hammock?

[Typicalsloan]

Well, I'm 135 lbs and my back feels the stretch in the 1.6oz Hexon. As I said, it's a very personal thing. Also, if you hang a 1.6oz and 2.4oz Hexon side by side, you will notice it clearly.

Yeah. I don't have another gathered end hammock to compare it to. Just a 1.1 Ridgerunner.

[sqidmark]

This is not surprising because the Dobby is a polyester-nylon mix (polyester has very little stretch) AND it's heavier/stronger. My guess is that your wife won't find a 1.0oz nylon fabric that provides the kind of support she needs. She would need to test different fabrics to see how light she can go.
...
That's tricky, because from my experience, the amount of support is tied to fabric weight. In my book, a good night of sleep is worth a couple more ounces. And we're talking only about maybe 3-5oz difference.

Yeah, I already figured we'd have to steer away from stretchy nylon, such as argon. Isn't hexon also nylon but with a more substantial ripstop grid?

Agree about sleep comfort vs weight savings. This is exactly why we're exploring hammocks vs the 20oz CF tent we were considering. Lighter is generally better but only to a point. We're not members of the "stupid light" camp.

I have never had breathability issues with any hammock fabric. Granted, all hammock fabrics are synthetic - which means that they will never feels as good as e.g. cotton or silk. But if you don't use a coated fabric, it should breathe.

Dobby is calendared so it can be used to contain down. It doesn't readily breathe as far as I can tell.

My upper body sweats like a pig at night, even when I'm cool. I don't know how much difference it makes, but I can blow right through the hexon1.0 and not at all through the dobby. I spent last night in the dobby. Did pretty well. My back was sweaty but this seems to occur no matter what, it's much worse on ccf and downright unacceptable on reflectix.

My wife will sleep in the dobby tonight, so I'll be in the hexon. We'll see if there is a significant difference. I expect the breathability issue to come into play more so during the sticky humid summer months.

I doubt you will get a satisfactory answer to those questions because any answer is highly subjective. There are plenty of people who say that 1.6oz Hexon has very little stretch. But for me it's still way too much. You will have to try the different fabrics to see what works for you.

I was hesitant to even ask because I know that we all have different shapes, sizes, weights, preferences, expectations and life experiences. I was just hoping for a general consensus in the hope of narrowing it down to just a few most likely choices.

I wouldn't use the 1.2oz PolyD for a single layer hammock. It's very thin, and I have read at least 2 reports about failures. This is not what you want when you're having trouble with your back already... Rather get 1.4oz PolyD. If that's sold out, Ripstopbytheroll just launched a 1.6oz polyester ripstop that might be an alternative. The 1.4oz PolyD has extremely little stretch. So much so, that it is uncomfortable to many.

A few searches did show a couple of folks with ripped polyd1.2. Both I found had used whipped ends rather than the channels. I don't know how significant or conclusive that may be. I don't see 1.4 on Dutch's site but I'll steer clear of 1.2. I figured it was "cheap" so I wouldn't cry too much if I botched it. Are polyD and nylonD being phased out in favor of newer materials?

Your wife might want to try the 2.4oz Hexon. It feels really substantial under my back, providing a lot of support. Otherwise, a 1.0oz Hexon double layer hammock would probably also work.

The DL would probably work for me if not her. But then I don't have too much trouble with the SL. If nothing else, the DL would allow us to also try out a pad vs the ways we have tried. Trying to keep one in place while lying directly on it is the pits. Ugh!

This would do nothing for support. In order to provide support, the fabric needs to be directly connected to the suspension. Double layer hammocks are made from one large rectangle folded in the middle. Both layers carry the weight.

You don't even need to connect the sides. Just the ends (head/foot). A short tack in the middle of the sides helps to keep the layers from separating when you enter the hammock. But once you are in the hammock, the layers stay in place, even if they're not connected.

Ahhhh...I see the light. Didn't think of it this way. Makes perfect sense now, thanks for that!

One last thought: are you using any bottom insulation at all, at the moment? If your back is already damaged, warmth (or the lack thereof) can make a huge difference.

Being in the house we don't have to get too crazy with insulation yet. Our thermostats are at 60* though. That said, with nothing underneath you can easily feel the heat being sucked right out. The only thing that I've found satisfactory at this point is a mylar survival blanket used as a UQ. I'm amazed that the difference with and without is so dramatic. No doubt the mylar is pretty well masking any fabric breathability though.

Thanks again.

[hutzelbein]

Isn't hexon also nylon but with a more substantial ripstop grid?

Yes, Hexon is a nylon fabric. I guess due to the weave it's less stretchy than Argon.

Dobby is calendared so it can be used to contain down. It doesn't readily breathe as far as I can tell.

My upper body sweats like a pig at night, even when I'm cool. I don't know how much difference it makes, but I can blow right through the hexon1.0 and not at all through the dobby. I spent last night in the dobby. Did pretty well. My back was sweaty but this seems to occur no matter what, it's much worse on ccf and downright unacceptable on reflectix.

My wife will sleep in the dobby tonight, so I'll be in the hexon. We'll see if there is a significant difference. I expect the breathability issue to come into play more so during the sticky humid summer months.

Calendared fabrics are not waterproof, but they will obstruct airflow. Most hammock fabrics are uncalendared, though.

A few searches did show a couple of folks with ripped polyd1.2. Both I found had used whipped ends rather than the channels. I don't know how significant or conclusive that may be. I don't see 1.4 on Dutch's site but I'll steer clear of 1.2. I figured it was "cheap" so I wouldn't cry too much if I botched it.

Well, both 1.2oz and 1.4oz PolyD are very thin fabrics. The 1.2oz is a 20D fabric, same as 1.0oz HyperD - but polyester is not as strong as nylon. There are quite a few reports on failures of 1.1oz ripstop nylon hammocks, so I would be wary.

If you would like to experiment with some cheap ripstop, try Ripstopbytheroll's 1.9oz ripstop nylon. It's not the lightest fabric, but not that heavy if you use it in a single layer hammock. It provides a lot of support and it's breathable. I really love that fabric.

Are polyD and nylonD being phased out in favor of newer materials?

Yes, they have been replaced by Hexon.

Being in the house we don't have to get too crazy with insulation yet. Our thermostats are at 60* though. That said, with nothing underneath you can easily feel the heat being sucked right out. The only thing that I've found satisfactory at this point is a mylar survival blanket used as a UQ. I'm amazed that the difference with and without is so dramatic. No doubt the mylar is pretty well masking any fabric breathability though.

I would recommend that your wife uses good bottom insulation, even in the house. Cold can cause back pain, too, or increase it.

[sqidmark]

We both spent the past two nights in the hammocks. Neither of us had any back issues, in fact, we both slept as well as we do in bed. Based on this, so far it's looking like a thumbs up for hammocks vs ground. We have yet to be able to get adequate sleep in a tent, however we have not tried consecutive nights so not exactly a fair comparison. In fact I just spoke to her about this and she said she'd pick the hammock over a tent without any doubts. So hammocks it is! (Well, we haven't spent a night out in the woods under a tarp yet either.)

I have no doubt that a proper under insulation would be worlds better than our current setup. She did say that she felt a bit cool underneath both nights. She had a fleece sleeping bag on top along with some other kind of blanket over her lower legs. Then I draped a costco throw over the hammock at the foot end. She had on socks, sweats, fleece jacket and a buff over her head. (Remember, this is IN the house!) Yeah, she sleeps cold but she removed the jacket after getting too sweaty.

I was perfectly fine both nights with just socks, shorts, long sleeve t-shirt, fleece sleeping bag over lower legs and unmodified costco down throw over the rest of me. At times I felt a bit warm but mostly ok. I found that I could cool myself off a bit quite easily with certain exaggerated movements that would allow the mylar to act like a bellows blowing air up through the hexon.

Today I'm going to make up different under insulation out of old cotton sheets in place of the mylar to allow for better breathing. I also have a sheet of 1" open cell foam that I could sandwich in between for her. Not sure I'd need/want it for myself. Doesn't hurt to try and it's not costing us a penny, besides it's fun to experiment.

My thoughts now are that I'd like for us to try both hexon 1.6 as well as hexon 1.0 DL. I have locked shoulders so if 1.6 has a bit less squeeze I'd be grateful, but otherwise I'm ok with 1.0. I have a feeling that the dobby is going to be too hot in warm months so I suspect that she'll prefer the DL. Now that the hammock vs tent question has been answered, I won't mind spending a bit extra to find just the right setup.

Two other issues we've been having has to do with hanging the hammocks inside. This is subject for a different post, so I'll just say that last night I removed the SRL's and shortened the whoopies to increase (sitting) height from the floor (easier to get in/out). This had the negative effect of tensioning the fabric in a way that we both felt an increase in shoulder squeeze. In the dobby, the fabric folds became more pronounced. I also see why some advocate hanging the foot end higher than the head. Even though I have the foot end set up 2-4" higher, we still find ourselves gradually sliding toward the foot end. Even the non-slick side of Dobby is much more slick than hexon. With trees I could deal with this, but in the house with 19' between walls and 7' ceiling, not so easy.