AHE on HYOH Podcast.

[Shug]

That's a difficult question to answer in some regards.

Growth it good on the hole. More people participating, more knowledge base to draw on for the community, more perspectives on solving a problem, more momentum in positive relations with resource management....referencing back to the work the Palmetto and LNT groups are doing that we all learned about in the past few episodes of HYOH.

But like all things in life that we look back on with fondness, the small group that was here when I joined was in some ways a tighter nit group. More people knew each other on a first name basis. There were fewer repeat threads with the same hashed out topics. There was a strong drive to innovate new ideas that were being shared and worked on across the board. I'm not saying thats not still happening but it's less community driven and more individual....I think anyway.

There is such a greater volume of folks on here, that now I know fewer and fewer in the old way....again probably perspective looking back. But at one point many of us would have days long conversations that would overlap from thread to thread to PM to thread and back agin...there got to be inside jokes and ribbing and banter that now is more cut to the chase. Don't know that it's something that can be "improved."

Just an old man looking back on his youth sort of thing probably.

Good things are happening here still!

I very much agree with you Paul.
It was a small town then.
The town has grown into a metropolis so there is a lot more giving directions these days to get folks where they need to go.
Shug the Codger

[Deadwood]

Thanks to Paul and the guys at HYOH for the interview. As always, it is enlightening to hear the backstory.

[kitsapcowboy]

...The small group that was here when I joined was in some ways a tighter nit group. More people knew each other on a first name basis. There were fewer repeat threads with the same hashed out topics. There was a strong drive to innovate new ideas that were being shared and worked on across the board. I'm not saying thats not still happening but it's less community driven and more individual....At one point many of us would have days long conversations that would overlap from thread to thread to PM to thread and back agin...there got to be inside jokes and ribbing and banter that now is more cut to the chase. Don't know that it's something that can be "improved."

...As Paul and Shug stated, growth is not bad but over time the presentation of the information available changes. To me there is a lot of "white noise" I have to dig through to get to the meat and taters I'm looking for. Like looking for specific information in a library full of books...

Offered with respect and in deference, some thoughts on this discussion to date from the perspective of a non-industry individual who has been an HF member for less than a year:

1) I am struck by the contrast in description of the changes in Hammock Forums contributions and content over time as reported respectively by Paul and Deadwood. Some would suggest that things were more fun in the old days precisely because of the interwoven insider commentary and banter within the tight-knit group that was present at HF's inception, while it seems the majority consensus among veteran members is that there is too much chatter from the uninitiated who have yet to earn their stripes and/or do their homework here on the forums, hence the proliferation of the offending "noise", which suggests, quite plainly, that the majority of today's banter isn't coming from the "right" group of individuals in the eyes of some veteran members.

2) If the effects of membership growth on site content are seen as a true problem, Hammock Forums management could certainly elect to close "opt-in" membership entirely in favor of an application-based system and screen new membership on an individual case-by-case basis by whatever criteria they deem appropriate. Alternatively, they could make new members default to "read-only" status until any or all of several criteria were satisfied. The privilege of posting to the forums could come only with paid membership, or one could earn the right to post only after a specified time period and/or number of log-ins/viewed posts as a "lurker". Or one could make posting privileges something granted only with a successfully screened application. Or any combination of these (or other) criteria. Regardless, if the management is in agreement with those veteran members that think that the large influx of new members has eroded the quality of this community, there are concrete actions that could be taken.

3) If the primary problem with today's Hammock Forums in the eyes of veteran members and the management is deemed to be the lower "signal to noise" ratio prevalent today, that would suggest that the appropriate course of action would be mode strict moderation by the staff. "Noisy" posts -- off-topic entries, jokes, well wishes, and "Good job" words of encouragement without other substantive content could be restricted/deleted from the threads in the forum by moderators, and punitive action could be taken against members who break the "noise" content rules repeatedly. Topics and questions re-introduced by newer members that have already been given adequate treatment in the past in the eyes of the HF staff could be moved and combined with previously established informational threads or deleted summarily. This would certainly entail more work for the people who run Hammock Forums, but it would also allow the moderators to steer the direction of new content on HF in a more streamlined and practically oriented direction, where a greater relative volume of organized information becomes available with less "filler".

4) To satisfy veteran members who want to be able to joke and banter among themselves in the way Paul describes without the nuisance of repeat "rookie" questions or otherwise unwelcome content on the forums, any or all of the possible courses of action outlined above could be introduced in conjunction with a "veteran members" forum, similar to the current donating members forum, where the most elite an experienced members could preserve unregulated space on the forums populated only by vetted members of their tight-knit group and free of the moderated constraints to which new members would remain subject.

5) Hammock Forums could choose keep the current systems for membership and moderation intact but initiate a true Block List instead of the current Ignore List. This would put more responsibility on each individual member, veteran or noob, to manage her/his own content stream -- i.e., the body of information that comes to each individual -- but it would also give all members greater control over the responses to the threads they initiate, which is why it would be superior to the current Ignore List. Don't want troublemakers to contact you via PM? Block them. Don't want the same troublemakers responding in your thread? Block them. Don't want noobs commenting on your OP? Limit the response privileges for your specific thread to certain criteria. Want to ask a question and only get answers from members who've been around longer than you? You get the idea. Implementation of some of these restrictive features might be difficult, but the advantages are clear, even if the costs are less so...

6) Of course, chief among the group of veteran members on HF are cottage vendors like Paul, as well as other industry professionals, who pay to use Hammock Forums for marketing and connection to the buying public. The same inexperienced new members who ask common questions over and over and make rookie mistakes are a large part of the rapidly growing customer base for those same vendors and industry insiders. There are likely trade-offs in the quality of forum content and interaction that vendors have to suffer through in order to connect with and provide customer service to that retail base using HF as their medium.

7) The community of long-time veteran HF members also includes people like Shug, who don't necessarily receive clear and direct large-scale profits from their participation on Hammock Forums. I wouldn't dare to assume why Shug contributes so tirelessly and generously to the HF community with his videos and advice, except to conclude that he is actually an altruist and a h*ll of a guy who genuinely appreciates being in service to others and likes helping people enjoy the same hobby he does. I am glad he does exactly what he does, whatever his reasons. I am a big fan. I bought my first camping hammock after watching some of Shug's videos, and I know I am not alone in this among HF's newer membership. I am certain even with his seemingly boundless patience and goodwill, he must sometimes get burnt out rendering the same advice to new people -- anyone would -- but I admire the 100% positive approach he took in his recent video, "How to Search for a Particular Video on YouTube" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qdus8XYOYdo), when he posted a video tutorial to help his subscribers learn to find their own answers in his preciously uploaded content. Pure class, IMHO. Pure Shug...

In this post, intended to further discussion of these points while introducing as little "noise" as possible, I would like to note that I am not suggesting any particular course of action, but instead simply attempting to outline several possible courses of action, none of which may be truly practical or viable in terms of achieving desired results without unacceptable costs.

Personally, as a noob, I will try to increase my "signal" from here out. Thanks for the opportunity to comment...

[Intimidator]

Offered with respect and in deference, some thoughts on this discussion to date from the perspective of a non-industry individual who has been an HF member for less than a year:

1) I am struck by the contrast in description of the changes in Hammock Forums contributions and content over time as reported respectively by Paul and Deadwood. Some would suggest that things were more fun in the old days precisely because of the interwoven insider commentary and banter within the tight-knight group that was present at HF's inception, while it seems the majority consensus among veteran members is that there is too much chatter from the uninitiated who have yet to earn their stripes and/or do their homework here on the forums, hence the proliferation of the offending "noise", which suggests, quite plainly, that the majority of today's banter isn't coming from the "right" group of individuals in the eyes of some veteran members.

2) If the effects of membership growth on site content are seen as a true problem, Hammock Forums management could certainly elect to close "opt-in" membership entirely in favor of an application-based system and screen new membership on an individual case-by-case basis by whatever criteria they deem appropriate. Alternatively, they could make new members default to "read-only" status until any or all of several criteria were satisfied. The privilege of posting to the forums could come only with paid membership, or one could earn the right to post only after a specified time period and/or number of log-ins/viewed posts as a "lurker". Or one could make posting privileges something granted only with a successfully screened application. Or any combination of these (or other) criteria. Regardless, if the management is in agreement with those veteran members that think that the large influx of new members has eroded the quality of this community, there are concrete actions that could be taken.

3) If the primary problem with today's Hammock Forums in the eyes of veteran members and the management is deemed to be the lower "signal to noise" ratio prevalent today, that would suggest that the appropriate course of action would be mode strict moderation by the staff. "Noisy" posts -- off-topic entries, jokes, well wishes, and "Good job" words of encouragement without other substantive content could be restricted/deleted from the threads in the forum by moderators, and punitive action could be taken against members who break the "noise" content rules repeatedly. Topics and questions re-introduced by newer members that have already been given adequate treatment in the past in the eyes of the HF staff could be moved and combined with previously established informational threads or deleted summarily. This would certainly entail more work for the people who run Hammock Forums, but it would also allow the moderators to steer the direction of new content on HF in a more streamlined and practically oriented direction, where a greater relative volume of organized information becomes available with less "filler".

4) To satisfy veteran members who want to be able to joke and banter among themselves in the way Paul describes without the nuisance of repeat "rookie" questions or otherwise unwelcome content on the forums, any or all of the possible courses of action outlined above could be introduced in conjunction with a "veteran members" forum, similar to the current donating members forum, where the most elite an experienced members could preserve unregulated space on the forums populated only by vetted members of their tight-knit group and free of the moderated constraints to which new members would remain subject.

5) Hammock Forums could choose keep the current systems for membership and moderation intact but initiate a true Block List instead of the current Ignore List. This would put more responsibility on each individual member, veteran or noob, to manage her/his own content stream -- i.e., the body of information that comes to each individual -- but it would also give all members greater control over the responses to the threads they initiate, which is why it would be superior to the current Ignore List. Don't want troublemakers to contact you via PM? Block them. Don't want the same troublemakers responding in your thread? Block them. Don't want noobs commenting on your OP? Limit the response privileges for your specific thread to certain criteria. Want to ask a question and only get answers from members who've been around longer than you? You get the idea. Implementation of some of these restrictive features might be difficult, but the advantages are clear, even if the costs are less so...

6) Of course, chief among the group of veteran members on HF are cottage vendors like Paul, as well as other industry professionals, who pay to use Hammock Forums for marketing and connection to the buying public. The same inexperienced new members who ask common questions over and over and make rookie mistakes are a large part of the rapidly growing customer base for those same vendors and industry insiders. There are likely trade-offs in the quality of forum content and interaction that vendors have to suffer through in order to connect with and provide customer service to that retail base using HF as their medium.

7) The community of long-time veteran HF members also includes people like Shug, who don't necessarily receive clear and direct large-scale profits from their participation on Hammock Forums. I wouldn't dare to assume why Shug contributes so tirelessly and generously to the HF community with his videos and advice, except to conclude that he is actually an altruist and a h*ll of a guy who genuinely appreciates being in service to others and likes helping people enjoy the same hobby he does. I am glad he does, whatever his reasons. I bought my first camping hammock after watching some of Shug's videos, and I know I am not alone in this among HF's newer membership. I am certain even with his seemingly boundless patience and goodwill, he must sometimes get burnt out rendering the same advice to new people -- anyone would -- but I admire the 100% approach he took in his recent video, "How to Search for a Particular Video on YouTube" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qdus8XYOYdo), when he posted a video tutorial to help his subscribers learn to find their own answers in his preciously uploaded content. Pure class, IMHO. Pure Shug...

In this post, intended to further discussion of these points while introducing as little "noise" as possible, I would like to note that I am not suggesting any particular course of action, but instead simply attempting to outline several possible courses of action, none of which may be truly practical or viable in terms of achieving desired results without unacceptable costs.

Personally, as a noob, I will try to increase my "signal" from here out. Thanks for the opportunity to comment...

....

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[kitsapcowboy]

...

LOL. And yes, for some the current Ignore List will work just fine. I'll consider myself added to yours, Intimidator. Best regards.

[pgibson]

I think you really headed down a habit hole that I was not pointing at in any way.

I was not saying to or asking for any change of any sort...one way or another.

[Intimidator]

LOL. And yes, for some the current Ignore List will work just fine. I'll consider myself added to yours, Intimidator.

I don't plan on ignoring anything. I enjoy your innovation, and all of the ideas you contribute, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with everything. To me it seems you are somehow personally offended by some things that most others might not take to heart. And I don't think anyone was trying to say the things you think they were (all interpretation, I could be wrong). As always, HYOH. I posted a thread with similar feelings to pgibson when I had just joined HF that you might look back on. I spent a couple days reading up on the old archives and even explored the old yahoo group, good stuff if you haven't checked it out.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[kitsapcowboy]

To me it seems you are somehow personally offended by some things that most others might...

Offended? No. Merely interested, hence my comments. I hope that clears up any misunderstanding.

I think you really headed down a habit hole that I was not pointing at in any way. I was not saying to or asking for any change of any sort...one way or another.

Clearly not my intention. So in light of the changes you've noted over time and alluded to in the podcast, do you have any advice for how HF can improve itself as a community? I think newer members could benefit from the perspective of the veterans, which is why I attempted to further the discussion, not to derail it.

[pgibson]

Never said or think that the community needs "Improved". Cars are not the same as they were in the 50's...I have always wanted a 57 corvette...



....Does not mean we need to change all cars to be like they used to be.

I had no intention of saying there was anything wrong with todays membership, leadership or direction of discussion here at HF.




One other point to note from your above post sounded as if your impression is that I as a vendor (and any other vendors for that manner) are here with a financial investment. I can't speak for everyone else but I am here to participate in the community as a hole. I enjoy taking gear...the hour and a half blabber fest that will live in infamy as the podcast should attest to that. I joined to talk gear, most of my posts here on HF by % are weighed to have nothing to do with our gear at AHE. I don't pay any $ to HF to be here....the leadership asks that vendors be donating members and that is all. We don't pay to have a sub forum, it's for organizational purposes. I participate heavily...on here everyday all day because I want to be...you will see other vendors with sub forums that don't participate at all or very little.

[kitsapcowboy]

I had no intention of saying there was anything wrong with todays membership, leadership or direction of discussion here at HF...

Alas, it seems I am having really having trouble avoiding being misunderstood today, and I take full responsibility for that. Please understand that I was not and am not in any way trying to maneuver you into making particular comments, controversial or otherwise.

...One other point to note from your above post sounded as if your impression is that I as a vendor (and any other vendors for that manner) are here with a financial investment. I can't speak for everyone else but I am here to participate in the community as a hole. I enjoy taking gear...the hour and a half blabber fest that will live in infamy as the podcast should attest to that. I joined to talk gear, most of my posts here on HF by % are weighed to have nothing to do with our gear at AHE. I don't pay any $ to HF to be here....the leadership asks that vendors be donating members and that is all. We don't pay to have a sub forum, it's for organizational purposes. I participate heavily...on here everyday all day because I want to be...you will see other vendors with sub forums that don't participate at all or very little.

Again, although that was not my impression, I will take responsibility for any misunderstanding. My point was that, in addition to your extensive long-time participation here on the forum, you also operate on HF in a professional capacity as a cottage vendor, providing a service to your customers -- among whom I number -- as part of the fiduciary responsibilities you shoulder for your company above and beyond the contributions you make personally as an experienced veteran HF member; I assumed (correctly or otherwise) that as a result of those conditions your experience of the content and interactions on HF is from a different perspective than that of veteran members who are not also vendors. Please understand that no offense or further implications were offered. I think everyone who reads this and/or spent an hour and a half listening to your podcast comments understands and appreciates the value of your both your personal and professional contributions, myself included.

...Would love to field any questions if anyone has any about the conversation.

Again, I am sorry for any misunderstanding. I took this entreat at face value. In hindsight, I see now that I should have simply let your recorded comments stand, so do I apologize for my attempts to explore and understand them more fully.