No sniveler and supershelter test report: 50 F

[FreeTheWeasel]

Greetings

In another thread I asked about a Western Mountaineering Summerlite bag vs. No Sniveller under/over quilt (http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/s...freetheweasel). I decided to purchase the quilt and take back my sleeping bag. I already own a Hennessy supershelter. I had planned to use the quilt as top cover and the supershelter underneath when I'm camping by myself. When camping with my daughter, she would get the underquilt, I would get the supershelter and we both would use big, heavy down sleeping bags as top cover.

I got the Jacks R Better quilt yesterday so, of course, I had to sleep outside last night. It turned out to be a pretty good night for testing.

I first tried the supershelter underneath and the quilt on top. I wanted to see if the quilt was comfortable or if a sleeping bag is still better. The quilt works very well in the hammock. Unlike sleeping on the ground, the hammock sides come up to cradle you, reducing the side-side room you have anyway. This keeps the quilt in place and I really didn't notice it falling off at all, even when I turned. On the ground however, this quilt might be a bit too narrow. Lying on my living room floor, rolling or shifting tended to pull an edge free which would lead to cold air rushing in. I think they make add on wings that you can use to stop the gaps from forming. If I were a ground dweller, I would want a wider quilt. Good think I'm never going back down there.

I slept in a T-shirt and shorts. No socks, long underwear, or hat. I slept really well until about 5:00 when I noticed a bit too much heat loss through my back. The wind had picked up and my thermometer read 50 degrees. I could have toughed it out, but I decided to get up and take off the supershelter and put the quilt on underneath. I used my old 15 degree sleeping bag as a top quilt.

The underquilt was warmer. I didn't feel the heat being sucked away from beneath me as I did with the supershelter. Since I was using a warmer top bag (theoretically warmer, in practice I'm not so sure) I've biased the experiment a bit. I slept the rest of the night warm and comfortable.

The quilt is well made and silly light. It is hard to imagine this thing will keep you warm into the 30's it's so light. I can't wait to try it out. Of course, I'd be wearing more clothing and a balaclava at that point. It won't be enough dressed as I was last night.

FreeTheWeasel

[BillyBob58]

So you were cold at 50 in the SS? I mostly can do a lot better than that, though I never have a NS ( as an UQ) available for direct comparison. With a wet/foggy mid 40's to lo 50's in Olympics 1st week of Sept, I slept very warm top and bottom, even with just the basic HH pad without space blanket or extra torso/kidney pads. Which pretty well confirmed my previous experience with it. I suppose you had the basic underpad only, but adjusted correctly so that it would just touch your back but not compress? I don't think you have to worry so much about compression ( the elastic has so much give in it), but if it's too loose and you get a gap, you'll be cold. Or if clothing ( or a pad) is in the undercover or on top of the underpad and it's too heavy for the amount of tension I've set, it will pull it down and you freeze.

Oh well, I figure you had it adjusted right. It's really not hard to do. It makes me think of 3 reviews at BGT. Two folks were happy with it ( with the extra kidney/torso pads) into the 20's or even low teens. But one person could never make it work below about 50. Glad to hear the NS worked well, as it seems to always do.
Bill

[FreeTheWeasel]

Greetings BillyBob,

I have used the supershelter down to 36 F (recorded on thermometer) and somewhere around freezing (frost on the ground). Both times, I was wearing thermal underwear, socks, a hat, and I had the sleeping bag hood pulled up tight around my face so that only my nose and mouth stuck out. I did not have any extra insulation underneath. I had only the open cell foam pad and the undercover. In those cases, I was pretty comfortable. Shifting around too much would cause my sleeping bag to act as a bellows, sucking in cold air which was always exciting but it always warmed right back up again.

Last night, however, I was intentionally not dressing warmly. I wanted to put myself in a position where I would be on the margins so that I could see if one would be a better solution than the other. In my unscientific test, the underquilt seemed to be a bit better but I have admit, I had a heavier sleeping bag on top for the second version of the test.

I think I had the supershelter adjusted properly, but sometimes it is hard to tell. The pad is a bit narrow and so there are more opportunities to shift off it. I also think in the two cold weather cases I mentioned above, I was sleeping in a bag which means that I had at the minimum a second layer of nylon between me and the outside, even if I was compressing the down.

The supershelter is not a bad system at all and I'm fortunate to get to try both back to back on the same night at the same temperature. Both have their advantages. The underquilt, at least last night, seemed to be slightly better. I'm always up for more testing though and fall and winter are coming!

FreeTheWeasel

[BillyBob58]

Greetings BillyBob,

I have used the supershelter down to 36 F (recorded on thermometer) and somewhere around freezing (frost on the ground). Both times, I was wearing thermal underwear, socks, a hat, and I had the sleeping bag hood pulled up tight around my face so that only my nose and mouth stuck out. I did not have any extra insulation underneath. I had only the open cell foam pad and the undercover. In those cases, I was pretty comfortable. Shifting around too much would cause my sleeping bag to act as a bellows, sucking in cold air which was always exciting but it always warmed right back up again.

Last night, however, I was intentionally not dressing warmly. I wanted to put myself in a position where I would be on the margins so that I could see if one would be a better solution than the other. In my unscientific test, the underquilt seemed to be a bit better but I have admit, I had a heavier sleeping bag on top for the second version of the test.

I think I had the supershelter adjusted properly, but sometimes it is hard to tell. The pad is a bit narrow and so there are more opportunities to shift off it. I also think in the two cold weather cases I mentioned above, I was sleeping in a bag which means that I had at the minimum a second layer of nylon between me and the outside, even if I was compressing the down.

The supershelter is not a bad system at all and I'm fortunate to get to try both back to back on the same night at the same temperature. Both have their advantages. The underquilt, at least last night, seemed to be slightly better. I'm always up for more testing though and fall and winter are coming!

FreeTheWeasel

OK, your 1st experiments listed above sounds closer to my experiences. Maybe even better if you were not using the 2 oz space blanket. If you got 32-36* from just the open cell foam and undercover, then you did about as good as can be done. I think I remember that during my "controlled experiments", the backs of my calves got a little cold at 38* with just the one OCF pad and no space blanket. There are many conflicting opinions about this, but TH still swears that the SB adds at least 10 or 15*. All I can say is it seems a good bi warmer when I use it. Of course, all of this varies greatly from person to person or even the same person from night to night. Plus variables such as wind and humidity or rain, and the bag you have on top.

One thing: did you notice, when you got cold at 50*, was it a cold spot or area that you felt specifically on your back? Or were you just cold overall? If I have inadequate insulation underneath, I usually can feel that pretty quick as an uncomfortable cold spot. In fact, read my account over in my Olympic trip report re: the night I forgot to re-secure the left side of my underpad! I woke up cussing the SS, when I needed to be cussing myself!

My pad is for the explorer and is 35" wide, and I stay on it pretty good. I think some other models are not as wide. I find the adjustments for the basic system pretty forgiving. Basically all I need is to have it attached about where the stock tarp, when centered o the suspension spectra, was supposed to attach to the prussick clips. The potential problems are when I start adding clothing underneath, but it is easily adjusted for, as long as you know to make the adjustment. If you don't, the clothing additions will just end up making you colder, the weight pulling things away from your back. But as I've said before, I actually managed to hang a 3 lb sleeping bag under there playing around one day. It snugged up to just touch the underpad just fine. Now, that was enough warmth for anyone! It was also a lot of weight and bulk, but hey, it was the back yard!

[FreeTheWeasel]

When I got cold with the Supershelter, it seemed as though I was loosing heat through my back which is odd. That was the area that should have been protected by the pad. In the past, when I've gotten cold, I've felt it on the sides: the outside of my arm or my forehead if it is lying along the edge of the hammock (side sleeping).

It is possible that I did not have the pad tight enough and that there were gaps. In my backyard, I was using a hammock stand that doesn't provide a lot room to stretch out the support line. I was also using the infamous panther nylon cleats (no problems yet!) and they were close to the hammock body. This means that I did not have a lot of room to pull the supershelter clips out which may mean I didn't have enough tension on the pad's bungee cords. I'll be sure to try it again with a more controlled experiment.

Like most things, hammock camping is a learning experience and I'm sure that someone with more experience would look at how I have things arranged and laugh. "Why are you trying to sleep balanced on the ridgeline like Snoopy?"

FreeTheWeasel

[BillyBob58]

When I got cold with the Supershelter, it seemed as though I was loosing heat through my back which is odd. That was the area that should have been protected by the pad. In the past, when I've gotten cold, I've felt it on the sides: the outside of my arm or my forehead if it is lying along the edge of the hammock (side sleeping)..................... I was also using the infamous panther nylon cleats (no problems yet!) and they were close to the hammock body. This means that I did not have a lot of room to pull the supershelter clips out which may mean I didn't have enough tension on the pad's bungee cords. I'll be sure to try it again with a more controlled experiment.
FreeTheWeasel

Ah Ha! The plot thickens! I had thought it was odd that in your first tests, you were warm at <32* - 36*, but on this last test you were cold at 50. That is some seriously different results. A gap from a too loose pad may explain the difference. Time and more experiments will tell. Not that the SS basic 1 pad (without even a space blanket) will definitely be as warm as a 2.5" thick down quilt ( I wouldn't think it would be), but I would think you could do better than that 50* and more like your first results.

But we sacrifice for the scientific method and the love of research , and I'm sure you'll get to lot's more testing and experimenting!

If you end up trying the SS in really cold temps, and you don't want to fool with a pad, consider a Garlington insulator top, bottom or both. Very little weight and money involved. A trash bag with some trapped air and a crinkled-up space blanket ( or wadded up newspaper, or leaves, etc) placed under the OCF pad, just lightly touching it. My experience indicates this gets you a big boost- I've only tried it with the space blanket. I see no reason why other stuff would not work also. I imagine even just the trash bag with trapped air would help some, but something in there to help make the trapped aair more "dead" would work a lot better.

And after my humid Olympics trip, ( first time I ever had any condensation in the SS) I have decided to always use the space blanket on top of the underpad, if for no other reason to keep any condensation of off the underpad, which will soak it up like a sponge. Have you had any SS condensation problems?

[FreeTheWeasel]

More testing! I'll be using the supershelter this weekend. I'll let you know how it goes. I'll probably be wearing warmer clothes, however, so the experiments won't be the same.

I'll have to do some more backyard camping as the temperatures drop, and when I do I'll be sure to post my results.

FreeTheWeasel

[BillyBob58]

Looking forward to it!