Permethrin treatments

[Beast 71]

@ B.Bob; I think that part of the problem for cats compared to dogs is in the way that they groom themselves. When you put permethrin on a cat it will lick it off to get clean. When you put it on a dog it will roll in dead fish or dung to get clean .

I think that the Sawyer's brand for humans would be the safest bet for clothing. I only do my outerwear (pants, long-sleeved bug shirt (both by soaking), and the outside of my hat and boots(with a spray pump). I also do my entire Warbonet Blackbird(by soaking, straps and all.

Whichever one you use (Tractor Supply or Sawyer's) I think it's quite literally a matter of picking your poison. I can't imagine either is absolutely safe, but not doing it isn't safe either if you have to deal with lifelong complications from meningitis, west Nile or Lymes' disease.

[DemostiX]

You can likely find the most info from the World Health Organization.(WHO) for malaria control. When you search, you'll see -- as the expert we are fortunate enough to have weighed in well knows -- that there is a family of ...ethrins used as insecticides.

My sense is that permethrin has some greater life and appearance of safety because it gets associated with the chrysanthemum-like-flower extract that was its motivation. The extract being the "natural" stuff.

I wouldn't trust intuitive thinking to estimate toxicity of any of these poison for humans. I'd trust toxicologists.

I especially appreciate an explanation which is otherwise hard to find, for differences in concentration level. Or rather an explanation of what ELSE is going on in packaging besides dilution levels.

[BillyBob58]

Well, I would prefer a big "put on your clothing" on the label, no doubt. Still, there is info like this:

http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/fac...methrin_fs.htm

Additionally, the Agency classified permethrin as “Likely to be Carcinogenic to Humans” by the oral route. This classification was based on two reproducible benign tumor types (lung and liver) in the mouse, equivocal evidence of carcinogenicity in Long- Evans rats, and supporting structural activity relationship information.

Risks

Dietary

• Acute, chronic non-cancer, and cancer dietary (food and drinking water) risks from permethrin were below the Agency’s level of concern (LOC).

Residential

• All non-cancer (dermal and inhalation) risks for individuals handling permethrin products in a residential setting were below the Agency’s LOC. All cancer risk estimates were also below the Agency’s LOC, except for the following scenario: mixing/loading/applying the EC formulation via sponge to horses.
• The non-cancer post-application risk estimates for adults and youth aged children exposed to an environment treated with permethrin were below the Agency’s LOC; however, the risk estimate for toddlers exposed to permethrin treated indoor surfaces (carpets) were above the Agency’s LOC. The cancer risk estimates for adults exposed to indoor surfaces treated with permethrin from directed surface sprays or total release foggers were also above the Agency’s LOC.
• The Agency considered post-application exposure to both outdoor residential misting systems and permethrin treated clothing. All scenarios were below the Agency’s non-cancer and cancer LOCs.

Aggregate Risks

• The acute aggregate risk non-cancer and cancer estimate from food and drinking water does not exceed the Agency’s LOC.
• Aggregate short-term (1-30 days) non-cancer risk estimates, which include the contribution of risk from chronic dietary sources (food + drinking water) and short-term residential sources, exceeded the Agency’s LOC for toddlers exposed to permethrin through food and drinking water, and through post-application exposure during high contact activities on lawns and indoor surfaces. The risk driver for the aggregate non-cancer risk estimate was post-application exposure to permethrin on treated indoor surfaces (carpets).
  
• The aggregate cancer risk estimate exceeded the Agency’s LOC for adults exposed to permethrin through food and drinking water, and through post application exposure during high contact activity on lawns and indoor surfaces. Similar to the non-cancer aggregate risk assessment, post-application exposure to treated indoor carpets was the risk driver.
• All residential/recreational exposures are expected to be short-term in duration. Therefore, no intermediate-term (1-6 months) or long-term (>6 months) aggregate risk was assessed.
• EPA believes that the appropriate way to consider the pharmaceutical use of permethrin in its risk assessment is to examine the impact that the additional nonoccupational pesticide exposures would have to a pharmaceutical patient exposed to a related (or, in some cases, the same) compound. Based on a worse case scenario assessment, EPA estimates that the permethrin exposure a patient is expected to receive from a typical single application of a 1% and 5% permethrin pharmaceutical cream, respectively, is 450 to 2300 times greater than the combined exposure from the dietary and other non-occupational sources of permethrin. FDA has reviewed these estimates and determined that pesticide exposure in patients receiving treatment with a pharmaceutical permethrin drug product would fall within the expected range of exposure following treatment with permethrin drug product alone, and would not present an increased safety risk.

.................................................. ...............

Risk/Benefit Balance Analysis

The Agency also assessed the significance of permethrin use, and conducted a risk/benefit balancing analysis. Given the significance of the use of permethrin and the mitigated nature of the risks of permethrin, the Agency believes, on balance, that the benefits of permethrin outweigh the risks. ...With regard to the treatment of fabrics, permethrin is the only pesticide registered to pre-treat fabrics, which the AFPMB strongly supports as a method of preventing many diseases that might afflict military personnel in the field. On other uses, such as residential uses, where there may be a potential for ecological effects due to urban runoff, the Agency intends to identify steps which can be taken to allow a greater understanding of potential ecological risk from urban uses of pyrethroid as a whole during Registration Review.

Here is what I don't understand: aren't these tests for Permethrin period? Not for Perm. specially formulated for clothing, but just plain and simple Perm., right? Does the above statement not indicate that Permethrin- and not some special Permethrin- is approved and even strongly supported for clothing use? Wouldn't that be any Permethrin? Just asking.

That does not mean there might not be something else besides Permethrin in the bottle, something else that might be harmful. But it seems to me it is pretty easy to stay below the LOC ( level of concern) for Permethrin itself.



Another thing I don't understand is: does this report indicate that the LOC is exceeded for high contact use on treated carpets, especially for toddlers? Then why is it approved in some cases for indoor (carpet) use? Again though, wouldn't that concern apply to any Permethrin?

I'm not making any claims here, I'm just throwing this info out there.

[BillyBob58]

BillyBob58.....Once it is dry it is safer. It is one of the safest chemicals out there. But just like any pesticide constant exposure could be dangerous. If you where to spray it in your house all the time you might have a problem but occasional use and using your head. Like don't let your baby crawl around on a freshly treated surface unclothed even if it is dry.

What makes stuff like Sawyers safer....It goes through millions of dollars of testing for approval to be used as a treatment for clothing. The thing that can make others not safe is some times the inactive ingredients.(the petroleum distillates can differ) For instance back in the early 80s there was a dog flea collar that the inactive ingredients was what was killing the dogs.

With my uncle the DR.s think all the aerosols (Permethrin included) he inhaled do to not using his respirator all the time is what got him.

And you are right if it does indeed bond to you clothes and not wash out like they say. it's sounds like safe stuff to me.

Thanks Kirkman! This is a subject that can benefit from considering all the facts no doubt. I have used the non-Sawyers, but I have always been just a little nervous about it.

[sturgeon]

I'm assuming the 3M brand "Ultrathon" is essentially the same as Sawyers?

(Just wondering because it was the only brand I could find in Canada.)

[Streetgang]

I've used permethrin since the 1990's. we would treat our uniforms with it. We could get it in the stock system as an aerosol to treat clothing. I use Sawyers now and swear by it. I've not had a tick or chiggers when wearing treated clothes.

[DemostiX]

The EPA is the first word, not the last on toxicity. The agency's domain is the environment. It is constantly battered by claims against it no matter how it rules since a supplier of an economic substitute stands to gain or lose depending on what it deems permissable.

Instead of generally touting chemicals, we should point to what can be safely used, when and where. Skin, clothing, netting, hammock? There are two --likely more --approaches for those four sites.

Thinking on this reminds me that one of the reasons for separate complete drape netting is that it can be treated in ways that one would not treat a hammock body in contact with skin.

[Rain Man]

I'm assuming the 3M brand "Ultrathon" is essentially the same as Sawyers?

To my knowledge, these are two very different things. 3M Ultrathon is 34% DEET and applied to your skin. Sawyers (as we have been discussing it in this thread) is Permethrin and is NOT applied to your skin, but rather to your clothing.

Rain Man

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[FLRider]

To my knowledge, these are two very different things. 3M Ultrathon is 34% DEET and applied to your skin. Sawyers (as we have been discussing it in this thread) is Permethrin and is NOT applied to your skin, but rather to your clothing.

Rain Man

Yep. Ultrathon is DEET mixed with a time-release compound. It's supposed to last longer on skin (especially sweaty skin) versus standard DEET. Permethrin is an whole 'nother animal.

[sturgeon]

Huh! I just ran and found the bottle (I've never used it). It says, "Active ingredient Permethrin 0.50%" (Maybe Ultrathon is a general name for all 3M repellents?) I knew it wasn't DEET because I knew i would never pay $20 for 8 oz. of DEET!

Anyway, my question is, is .50% the same concentration of permethrin as the Sawyers that you are talking about?

(sorry about sidetracking the thread)