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  1. #1
    Senior Member hangnout's Avatar
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    Climashield XP temp ratings

    I understand the advantages and disadvantages of down vs synthetics. My question is how the climashield can be rated at 20 degrees with 1.2 inches of loft while most of the 2.5 inch down quilts are around 30 degrees.

    From the Thru-Hiker.com website

    5 oz/sq yd: @1.2 " loft. clo=.82/oz. Total CLO : 5.0 oz * 0.82 clo/oz = 4.1 (approx temp rating 20 degrees)
    I have read some of the answers on the thru-hiker forum but have not read much from actual users.

    I know that NCPatrick has made a quilt and will be testing as the temps drop. Anyone else used this in low temps yet?
    Last edited by hangnout; 10-30-2007 at 11:04.

  2. #2
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    loft is not equivalent with down vs. synthetics. 3" synthetic loft will be warmer than 3" down loft. but 3" synthetic loft will be heavier than 3" down loft as well. some types of syn are even warmer for a given thickness than the xp. primaloft is i think. i think it has alot to do with the density of the insulation. you can't just look at the amount loft. different insulations require different amounts of loft to achieve a given warmth. down probably requires the most loft to achieve a given temp. that doesn't mean it's not still lighter for a given temp though. just because something has more loft doesn't mean it's heavier.

    the material is different, so equal lofts don't give the same warmth. for instance it would only take around 1/4" of ccf to get a similar temp rating that you would get with 2.5" of down, and 1/2" thick polyseter fleece blanket would be alot warmer than a 1/2" thick down blanket.

    the xp is just denser than down, so it doesn't require as much loft to achieve the same level of warmth, but for a given level of warmth, the down will weigh slightly less even though it has more loft.

  3. #3
    Senior Member hangnout's Avatar
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    the xp is just denser than down, so it doesn't require as much loft to achieve the same level of warmth, but for a given level of warmth, the down will weigh slightly less even though it has more loft.
    I can see the logic behind that but have another question about CLO rating. Thru-Hiker rates their climashield XP at 4.1 (about 20 degrees) but the article linked below states that a CLO of 6 is about 32 degrees? I understand that everything on the net is not accurate, but that is a big difference. I am going to make a quilt but want to make sure it will get into the 20's.

    http://www.adventurenetwork.com/cgi-...m-Science.html
    What the heck is a CLO?
    You may have read or heard something about CLO, and even some buying guides and product literature may reference CLO or CLO value. Developed in 1941, it was the first real attempt to explain the insulation value of clothing so people would know how much clothing they might need to stay warmer or cooler in a given temperature environment. A CLO value of 1 is defined as the amount of clothing required by a resting human (in other words, sitting, lying down or standing, but not moving) to be comfortable at a room temperature of 21 degrees C, or approximately 71 degrees F. That single value of CLO is equivalent to a typical business suit worn by a man -- shirt, undershirt, trousers and suit jacket. The higher the CLO number, the more insulating value is provided.

    Yeah, but who hikes in a business suit?
    Not many folks. But it is a good point of reference. Think of it like this: If something has a CLO value of 2, it means it provides the same amount of insulation as two suits. All garments and even sleeping bags carry a CLO value. As a point of comparison, the Department of Performance Textiles at Leeds University in the United Kingdom developed a comfort model to relate the thermal resistance of sleeping bags to temperature ratings. The study found that a CLO value of 2.5 was needed to keep a sleeping person comfortable at an air temperature of 59 degrees F, or 15 degrees C. A CLO value of 4 was required for comfort at 48.2 degrees F, or 9 degrees C. Thirty-two degrees F, or 0 degrees C, you'd need a CLO value of 6.
    Last edited by hangnout; 10-29-2007 at 21:34.

  4. #4
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    yeah, those ratings aren't very consistent. i wonder what kind of bottom insulation they used in that study. if they weren't using any, it could have skewed the findings due to compression of the loft. maybe they were standing up in the bags.

    i don't even look at clo that much. basically i just figure the higher the clo for a given synthetic, the better warmth to weight ratio it has, and the better for outdoor gear it is.

    i agree, that it sounds a little hopefull to get to 20 deg with 5.0 oz/yd of xp. all my experience with the xp has been with underquilts, which suffer from other factors that take away from the true warmth of the insulation (basically all under quilts are somewhat in efficient compared to a closed sleeping bag.)

    i would say that if you used a layer of 5.0 and a layer of 2.5, you would probably get to around 20*. unless you are making an underquilt, then i would use 2 layers of 5.0.

  5. #5
    Senior Member hangnout's Avatar
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    Thanks, that was about what I had in mind also and really did not want to get much more into the "math". I think I will try the 5.0 & 2.5 for a top quilt and see how it works. I will stick with the down for the underquilt because I think it will conform better to the hammock bottom.
    Last edited by hangnout; 10-29-2007 at 21:30.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by warbonnetguy View Post
    yeah, those ratings aren't very consistent. i wonder what kind of bottom insulation they used in that study. if they weren't using any, it could have skewed the findings due to compression of the loft. maybe they were standing up in the bags.

    i don't even look at clo that much. basically i just figure the higher the clo for a given synthetic, the better warmth to weight ratio it has, and the better for outdoor gear it is.

    i agree, that it sounds a little hopefull to get to 20 deg with 5.0 oz/yd of xp. all my experience with the xp has been with underquilts, which suffer from other factors that take away from the true warmth of the insulation (basically all under quilts are somewhat in efficient compared to a closed sleeping bag.)

    i would say that if you used a layer of 5.0 and a layer of 2.5, you would probably get to around 20*. unless you are making an underquilt, then i would use 2 layers of 5.0.
    WBG, et al,

    There is consistency between this study and some of the work by Nisley and others on BPL.com....there is good chart and data here.http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-...st=73612#73612...Bottom line of thes studies is that down loft at approximately 1.8 inches is between a clo of 6.4-6.9....A fair match for the clo of 6 required for 32 degrees stated above....

    Your estimate of double 1.2 xp or 2.4 total at 10oz /sq yd for 20 degrees is probably off by 10 degrees... clo of 5 is probably closer to 30-32*....note that 2.5 inches of down loft is also fairly estimated at 20 degrees by most ( at least when used on the ground or as a top quilt) that same loft for 800 pf works out to be 4 oz.

    Loft is still the single greatest determinant to insulation warmth... Clo ratings are frequently cast about confusingly.... there are some who even espouse a clo is equal to an inch of down, which is off by at least a factor of three...

    I too am very sceptical that a single layer of .6 or even a double layer (1.2) will get one to below 45 degrees without wearing long handles, socks etc.

    Pan
    Ounces to Grams.

    www.jacksrbetter.com ... Largest supplier of camping quilts and under quilts...Home of the Original Nest Under Quilt, and Bear Mountain Bridge Hammock. 800 595 0413

  7. #7
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    pan, if the clo for 5.0 xp is 4.1, clo for the recomended 7.5 oz of xp would have a clo of around 6, and the clo for 10 oz of xp would be 8.1. not 5 like you state.(maybe you meant 6 instead. this would make more sense)

    i guess the clo ratings do show 7.5 oz of xp having a 6 ish rating, but i would say 7.5 oz xp will go lower than 32 from my experience. i had an uq with around 7.5 oz xp take me down to around those temps (27-32)even with a bit of loft compression under my butt. i would think 10 oz of xp for a top quilt would go to 20 easily if not lower (clo of 8.2), and 7.5 oz of xp (clo 6.15)would get you to close to 20. close being at least 25, and definately warmer than 32. although, when you are only talking about 5 degrees up or down, lots of other factors do come into play. 7.5 xp should go down somewhere into the 20's though, especially if you are sleeping in additional clothing.

    i dissagre about loft though, the lofts of continuous filament polyester and down are similar, but consider what i was saying about ccf and polyester fleece. it takes a tiny fraction of the thickness to get the same warmth as with down. if you had 2.5" of ccf of polyester fleece, you would go alot farther than 20*. ccf and fleece are very different than than down, but the point is that loft in general (without regard to the type of insulation being considered) tells you little. thats why garment designers often use primaloft and thinsulate, because they don't require as much loft and bulk to provide the desired amount of warmth.
    Last edited by warbonnetguy; 10-29-2007 at 23:05.

  8. #8
    Senior Member tight-wad's Avatar
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    What about bulk?

    I just made a segmented pad extender clone using a new ($5.99) wally world pad, $1 per yd ripstop, and an old, old foam pad ($0.00). It seemed to do the job in a simple test, and it was only about 6 oz without the big pad, but then I got to thinking about packing all the pieces for a mulitday hike. I have a big pack, but not that big. Also, can't say I liked all that junk in the hammock with me. If I ever go camping in the snow, then it definitely will find a place in the pack.

    Back to bulk, how small can you squeeze Climashield?

    I'm slowly working my way up to shelling out some serious cash for down (probably from Ed). Mainly because of it's compressibility, and secondly for the weight. Do it or don't?

    tight-wad

  9. #9
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    polyester insulation, like xp, is compressible, but not as compressible as down.

    check out sleeping bags. go to the store and stuff (2) top end 20* bags into their stuff sacs. one down and one synthetic. the stuffed synthetic one will probably take up at least 50% more space than the stuffed down bag will. both of these compress alot more than a foam pad. ccf (closed cell foam) doesn't compress at all. and down compresses to a tiny fraction of its lofted size. xp compresses alot too, just not quite as much as down.
    Last edited by warbonnetguy; 10-29-2007 at 23:06.

  10. #10
    Senior Member tight-wad's Avatar
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    thanks war bonnet.

    so xp is more like a granular filling and less like a fabric? ... but you buy it buy the yard x whatever the width is?...

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