Warning knot failure! Check your knots!

[gargoyle]

So, when I made my whoopies, I just attached them to my bridge hammock wit a larks head through the outer ring. Backed up with a couple of 1/2 hitches.

I have only slept in it overnight once or twice, though I have taken numerous naps. As far as I can tell, the knots have not moved even a millimeter.

So is this unsafe with Amsteel?

If I make some more whoopies, I will make one of those dead eyes. But if I am understanding correctly, I can not add a dead eye to my whoopies without undoing the adjustable part of the whoopie. Is that correct?

BB, Depends how much line you have to work with once the knot is removed. You can always undo the whole whoopie and re adjust for the new locked or spliced eye by shortening your adjustable eye by a few inches.
IMO, you need about 5-6 inches of bury for a safe locked eye. Plus 2-4 for the actual eye. And a corresponding 5-6 inches of rope to bury into. So approx. a foot to 20 inches of "free" rope on the end.
You can do just a backspliced eye and not a full locked eye. Add a few stitches to your backspliced "dead" eye for security. The stitches just hold the eye/splice in place when the rope is NOT under tension. The constrictive force holds the rope UNDER tension.
Now that the rope has been knotted and tensioned tho, you may have issues with the splicing process, as some of the braid will show signs of stress.

[gargoyle]

Poppa B - Blood knots on a nacrabiner? Why not use the tried and TESTED diamond (lanyard) knot?

I believe the blood knot was chosen because it was a simpler knot for folks to do/teach, especially thru video tutorial. And it works, but it needs the backsplice to work well.

And for me, trying tie a lanyard/diamond knot with only a few inches of rope to deal with is a PITA. At least with my big fat fingers.

TYOK
(tie your own knot)

[TiredFeet]

So, when I made my whoopies, I just attached them to my bridge hammock wit a larks head through the outer ring. Backed up with a couple of 1/2 hitches.

I have only slept in it overnight once or twice, though I have taken numerous naps. As far as I can tell, the knots have not moved even a millimeter.

So is this unsafe with Amsteel?

I don't understand.

How can a larks head knot through the ring slip?

The only way I can possibly imagine a larks head knot through the ring slipping is if the rope breaks.

If I make some more whoopies, I will make one of those dead eyes. But if I am understanding correctly, I can not add a dead eye to my whoopies without undoing trhe adjustable part of the whoopie. Is that correct?

Nope.

[BillyBob58]

Here it is:

http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/s...ght=eye+splice

BB, Depends how much line you have to work with once the knot is removed. ......
Now that the rope has been knotted and tensioned tho, you may have issues with the splicing process, as some of the braid will show signs of stress.

Thanks for the info and link.

I don't understand.

How can a larks head knot slip?

The only way I can possibly imagine a larks head knot slipping is if the rope breaks.

Indeed, mine has never slipped even a mm, YET. And I also can't see how it will, especially with me having tied 1/2 hitches in the left over 4- 6" of "tail". But I can't help but ask the question about if this is a safe knot with Amsteel, after reading this thread about how most knots are not safe to use with slippery Amsteel. And that all that is really safe to use with Amsteel is a bury/splice. Although a couple of knots have been mentioned (lanyard etc) that might work well with slippery Amsteel, Larks head was not one of them. And I do wonder about the poorer "compression" strength that was mentioned, possibly increasing the chance of a break.

But I am still using a Larks head, as I have ever since I got the Whoopies.

[TiredFeet]

Thanks for the info and link.





Indeed, mine has never slipped even a mm, YET. And I also can't see how it will, especially with me having tied 1/2 hitches in the left over 4- 6" of "tail".

Now you really have me confused (maybe my normal state?). As I understand and tie a larks head, there is no tail and so no way to tie any half hitches.

[Bunk]

Ugh...reminds me of my first hang. I was on the Missinaibi River in Ontario, hung my hammock (high and over knotted roots that stuck out of the ground a foot) and SPLAT...fell on me arse, not 10 min later I hung it again and again it was over a very large root, and SPLAT nearly broke my back! A scary thing considering I was solo and fairly remote.

My problem...I was using strapping wrapped around a tree at either end of hammock, both sections of strapping were loops heat glued together. The first strap broke at the heat glued section and I fell. I then tied the broken strap into a solid knot to fix it. But again I fell the second time as my second strap broke at the heat glue section...lol...tied a knot at that end as well and was good to go for the rest of the trip...

Some times I'm a dumb dumb in the bush and learning the hard way...a couple of times is what it takes! Lol!

[DannyBoy2k]

Now you really have me confused (maybe my normal state?). As I understand and tie a larks head, there is no tail and so no way to tie any half hitches.

A Lark's Head (also called Cow Hitch, Girth Hitch, etc.) does not have to be tied with a loop. You can tie it with a free strand. This video shows how:
http://www.iwillknot.com/cow_hitch/

~Dan

[BillyBob58]

Now you really have me confused (maybe my normal state?). As I understand and tie a larks head, there is no tail and so no way to tie any half hitches.

Well, pretty hard for me to put into words, as you can tell by my first attempt re: the "tail". But, unless I am way off, you can take one end of a rope ( as in the whoopie sling end that goes to the hammock). Then you can form a loop in that line. Not really a loop, but more like a "U". As in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeNvz...eature=related


When this gent forms the "loop" or "U" out of this single line, and then finishes the larks head which he wraps around the blue thingie, he then has 2 loose ends of line distant to the actual larks head knot and the blue thingie. The blue thing could be instead the ring on the end of the bridge hammock or the end of a gathered end hammock. Then he would normally be left with one long end going towards the tree(with maybe the adjustable eye of a whoopie sling), and the other end of left over line much shorter. In the video, both of the lines distal to the knot and blue thing are the same length. But in my case, one end is long and goes to the tree, the other is much shorter. As you can also see in Dannyboy's link in the previous post.

I take this left over short piece of line and wrap it around the long piece which goes to the tree and is under tension. In what I am calling (maybe in error) a 1/2 hitch. Then I do it again and even a 3rd time if I have enough line. It is pretty much like the so called "1/2 hitches" used to finish up the HH hitch or Claytor knot.
http://www.mosquitohammock.com/hammockknots.html


I guess that is clear as mud. But like I said, hard for me to put into words. If it is even possible for the Larks head to slip, first the "half hitches" will all have to slip first.

So what about it y'all: is it safe to connect an Amsteel whoopie to the hammock with a larks head,or is a dead eye/Brummel needed for safety? For whatever reason?

Ugh...reminds me of my first hang. I was on the Missinaibi River in Ontario, hung my hammock (high and over knotted roots that stuck out of the ground a foot) and SPLAT...fell on me arse, not 10 min later I hung it again and again it was over a very large root, and SPLAT nearly broke my back! A scary thing considering I was solo and fairly remote.

My problem...I was using strapping wrapped around a tree at either end of hammock, both sections of strapping were loops heat glued together. The first strap broke at the heat glued section and I fell. I then tied the broken strap into a solid knot to fix it. But again I fell the second time as my second strap broke at the heat glue section...lol...tied a knot at that end as well and was good to go for the rest of the trip...

Some times I'm a dumb dumb in the bush and learning the hard way...a couple of times is what it takes! Lol!

Man, that is scary! Glad you were not seriously injured, considering you were way out there in the wild!

[TiredFeet]

A Lark's Head (also called Cow Hitch, Girth Hitch, etc.) does not have to be tied with a loop. You can tie it with a free strand. This video shows how:
http://www.iwillknot.com/cow_hitch/

~Dan

Yes I know about that method and you end up with 2 "tails".

The problem is that if you half-hitch one "tail" to the other tail, the "tail" along with the half-hitch can just "slide" right back through the loop. The same as if you didn't use a half-hitch at all and pulled hard on just one of the "tails". This is especially true if the larks head knot is around a smooth object like shown or a metal ring. To keep the Larks head shown from coming undone, you have to apply force equally to both "tails". If pulling on only one "tail" the knot is not very secure and you can just pull it out.

The method shown is usually (technically?) known as the "cow hitch" since it was/is used to secure a rope to the ring through the cow's nose. If you were trying to restrain a strong bull that was enraged, it wouldn't hold. It wouldn't even hold for a cow that was sufficiently frightened.

I imagine, the insecurity of the cow hitch would be even worse in something as slippery as amsteel.

If you want only one free end for the larks head for loading and want a secure knot, then you have to use an eye on the end created by a splice or some secure loop knot. I usually use a bowline, although I have heard that other loop knots are more secure. But I already know the bowline.

[TiredFeet]

Okay - so you are really using the cow hitch. This hitch is really not very secure when only one "tail" is loaded.

Why not use a Larks head which looks very much like the cow hitch? Well if you only look at the part around the ring, they look identical.

For your use, you would be better served by tying a loop with a bowline and then using the bowline loop to tie a real larks head. Much more secure. Sure it's 2 knots, but both are easy to tie. And you are already tying 2 with the cow hitch and the half hitches.

Well, pretty hard for me to put into words, as you can tell by my first attempt re: the "tail". But, unless I am way off, you can take one end of a rope ( as in the whoopie sling end that goes to the hammock). Then you can form a loop in that line. Not really a loop, but more like a "U". As in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeNvz...eature=related


When this gent forms the "loop" or "U" out of this single line, and then finishes the larks head which he wraps around the blue thingie, he then has 2 loose ends of line distant to the actual larks head knot and the blue thingie. The blue thing could be instead the ring on the end of the bridge hammock or the end of a gathered end hammock. Then he would normally be left with one long end going towards the tree(with maybe the adjustable eye of a whoopie sling), and the other end of left over line much shorter. In the video, both of the lines distal to the knot and blue thing are the same length. But in my case, one end is long and goes to the tree, the other is much shorter. As you can also see in Dannyboy's link in the previous post.

I take this left over short piece of line and wrap it around the long piece which goes to the tree and is under tension. In what I am calling (maybe in error) a 1/2 hitch. Then I do it again and even a 3rd time if I have enough line. It is pretty much like the so called "1/2 hitches" used to finish up the HH hitch or Claytor knot.
http://www.mosquitohammock.com/hammockknots.html


I guess that is clear as mud. But like I said, hard for me to put into words. If it is even possible for the Larks head to slip, first the "half hitches" will all have to slip first.

So what about it y'all: is it safe to connect an Amsteel whoopie to the hammock with a larks head,or is a dead eye/Brummel needed for safety? For whatever reason?



Man, that is scary! Glad you were not seriously injured, considering you were way out there in the wild!