That Old Orchard shelter is appealing!
Looks like Scales is a big open area... no wonder she suggested we camp there!
Here's some pics I found, and a link to more pics taken in winter.
The first is Scales and the gravel road. The second is approaching Scales on the trail. The third is departing Scales and looking back.
- MacEntyre
"We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately." - Ben Franklin
www.MollyMacGear.com
The Forest Rangers are just doing their job.
http://www.dcr.virginia.gov/state_pa....shtml#camping
http://www.wilderness.net/index.cfm
http://www.wilderness.net/index.cfm?...anagement#regs
The group camp site would have been perfect but is officially closed.
http://www.reserveamerica.com/campin...&parkId=140172
To be clear, overnight backpacking is allowed at the Wise Shelter.
http://www.dcr.virginia.gov/state_pa...ghbkpkinst.pdf
http://www.dcr.virginia.gov/state_pa...sevweather.pdf
The intent of the AT shelters is for AT overnight hikers, AT section hikers, and AT thru hikers to stay at the shelter for one night and then move on.
The AT shelters are not intended to be campgrounds in the sense this hang as morphed into. If the number had been only a half dozen people then I suspect that we would not have heard from the Forest Rangers.
There is no limit to the number of AT section, AT thru hikers, and AT overnight hikers who may arrive at a shelter (as long as they are not a single group and as long as they all move on to the next one the following day).
The 10 person limit is due to Federal rules that are appplicable to Parks designated as "Wilderness Areas".
Keeping the letter of the law, if car spots were organized, groups of 10 could hike thru this section using the Wise Shelter for one night and then hiking to the next shelter, Old Orchard for the next night. The groups would probably want to be spaced out from each other along the trail and maybe even hang in separate groups.
Another idea, more in the spirt of the intent of the AT shelters, would be for half of the group to hike NOBO and the other half SOBO with a car key swap; thereby further reducing the impact.
Love my JRB BMB
Old Orchard and Scales are not in any Wilderness Area, nor are they in GHSP. They are both in the Mt Rogers Natl Rec Area, which is part of the Jefferson Natl Forest.
Last edited by MacEntyre; 12-15-2010 at 17:43.
- MacEntyre
"We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately." - Ben Franklin
www.MollyMacGear.com
Mac's Pic #1 is facing AT North. When I was there, a camper was just off pic to the left, & the privy was about even with the camera to the right. The AT continues through the fence & bears somewhat right after crossing the road. That is where I saw some hanging sites. Not many though.
My plan this year was to hike to the scales & back to the Wise. I'm not sure I would want to camp there, It IS quite open at the scales.
When you have a backpack on, no matter where you are, you’re home.
PAIN is INEVITABLE. MISERY is OPTIONAL.
Neither is the Wise shelter....Originally Posted by MacEntyre
Look, I know that the HF group willl leave the site in much better shape than they found it.
But I do think we should recognize that AT shelters are intended for hikers who stay for a single night, not for a group of 40 people to use as a base camp for day hikes over the course of two or three days.
Sadly there seems to be nothing like Barnes Field down in that neck of the woods.
http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/forests/whit...campsites.html
I think most of of are well aware of the intended use for the shelters, but this would be the 5th year we've done this and there hasn't been a single problem before and the folks at the park have always been more than accommodating.
I also don't think, in that time, we have ever seen other hikers out there that weren't part of our group.
Sorry, this just has me a bit peeved. If they don't want us there I'm good with being far, far away from them.
Live by the sword, die by the arrow
Ok, I cleaned this up after finding the GWJ Natl Forest page.
What we are doing is called Dispersed Camping. It is free in Natl Forests. You don't have to be on the move. You can have a relatively large group. Looks to me like hanging 150' away from a shelter for a couple of days is dispersed camping. Just can't do it in a state park, and you are limited to 10 people in a wilderness area.
Dispersed camping for the GW/Jefferson Natl Forest.
It looks like each individual national forest has it's own copy of the above definition of dispersed camping, with small differences such as how long before you have to move 5 miles. For Wilderness Areas, the group limit is 10, but for Natl Forest areas that are not Wilderness Areas, it is 75 without a permit. Doctari, the towed camper you saw was doing dispersed camping!Dispersed Camping
Camping is a popular activity for many Forest visitors, particularly during hunting season. While there are several developed campgrounds on each of the forest's ranger districts, many visitors prefer to camp in more primitive surroundings, away from other campers. The following provides some basic information on dispersed camping on the George Washington & Jefferson National Forests.
Dispersed camping is permitted throughout the forests, except in specially designated areas that are signed as closed to camping. Depending on what you are looking for, you'll find a wide range of dispersed camping opportunities--from remote, hike-in backcountry areas to cleared sites adjacent to Forest Service roads where you can set up a camper or trailer.
Motorized vehicles are not allowed in Wildernesses.
No permits or fees are required to camp in these dispersed reas, but we ask that you limit your stay to 21 days. This helps to keep any one area from becoming overused.
Certain areas on each District are more popular than others for dispersed camping due to their ease of access, location, terrain and other factors. To find out where these areas are located, stop by or call the district offices.
Leave No Trace
When camping on the National Forest, we ask that you do your part to help keep our Forest clean. Practice NO TRACE CAMPING techniques by leaving the site in the same natural condition in which you found it.
* Carry out all trash.
* Bury human waste and toilet paper in a hole at least 8 inches deep and well away from a spring or stream; be sure to cover the hole over with loose soil after use.
* Avoid camping within 100 feet of a stream or obvious trail.
* Remember, the water you use to bathe or wash dishes in may be drinking water for a downstream camper. So keep soap and waste water from cooking or bathing away from streams.
* When building a fire, use only dead wood lying on the ground.
* Build fires away from trees to reduce forest fire hazards and prevent damage to root systems.
* Use existing fire rings. If none are available, clear a small area down to mineral soil. Clear away any dry branches or leaves that could catch on fire.
* Hang lanterns at least 12 inches away from a treetrunk to avoid damaging the tree's living tissues.
Campfires
Only down and dead trees may be used for firewood. Campfires are permitted on National Forests except in areas where they are specifically forbidden (these will be plainly posted). Hunters and campers are reminded that the fall and spring hunting seasons are also the peak fire seasons -- these are the times when wildfires are most likely to occur due to the dry conditions and the abundance of dry leaves. No one wants to be responsible for starting a forest fire -- Here are a few simple rules to make your National Forest visit safe and enjoyable:
* Keep fires away from overhanging branches.
* Use an existing fire ring if possible.
* Clear a 5-foot area around the fire ring, removing all burnable debris down to the mineral soil.
* Avoid building campfires on dry, windy days.
* Keep a bucket of water and a shovel nearby in case of an emergency.
* Stack your firewood upwind and well away from the campfire.
* NEVER leave a campfire unattended. When you leave, make sure the fire is completely out by drowning the fire and surrounding area with water; stirring the fire with a shovel or stick and drowning again; continue stirring until the fire is cold to the touch.
* DO NOT bury coals. They can smolder for hours, even days, and surface again to start a forest fire.
Respect Private Land
On many parts of the Forest, land ownership patterns are patchy, with Federal lands intermingled with private land. When hunting or hiking on National Forests, know where the boundaries are between government and private land. If you aren't sure, purchase a map of the area from a local Forest Service Office. Do not trespass onto private land, or shoot toward private land when hunting. Be sure to get permission from the landowner before crossing onto their land. Remember to be a good neighbor, and respect the rights of private landowners.
Hunting on the National Forest
Except in developed recreation areas or other closed areas, hunting is permitted throughout the George Washington and Jefferson National Forests. To hunt on the Forest, you need a valid State license and a Forest Stamp. In addition, many counties in Virginia require a special "damage" stamp. Licenses and stamps are not available from the Forest Service, but can be purchased at county clerk offices and many sporting goods stores.
Please, enjoy your national forests and have a safe visit!
Last edited by MacEntyre; 12-15-2010 at 18:51.
- MacEntyre
"We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately." - Ben Franklin
www.MollyMacGear.com
The guide lines for National Forests, Wilderness Areas & State parks are different. The later two in this case lie with in the Jefferson National Forest & the more protective rules for the State Park & the Wilderness Area apply over the larger National Forest rules.
It's like this... State park & wilderness Areas, small.
They lie with in the much larger Mt Rogers Recreation Area.
The MRRA lies with in the much larger yet Jefferson National Forest.
Wise Shelter is with in the boundaries of GHSP.
Old Orchard Shelter is just outside the boundaries of the Lewis Fork Wilderness Area, but taking the winter hang there (to another shelter) would still be going against the intended use of the AT shelters & request of the ranger.
We have seen several hikers that were not with our group come to & stop at the shelter. We encouraged them to use the shelter if they liked & we would make room & make them welcome, but for whatever reasons, they decided to move on. It may or may not have been based on being near a large group.
The suggestion I made earlier about camping along the Cliftside/Lewis Fork Trails that follow a creek through a valley would also be in a Wilderness area, so that's out for a large group.
The idea the Ranger was suggesting was that we use the Mt Rogers National Recreation Area, which is in the Jefferson National Forest, but avoid the more strictly regulated State Park & Wilderness Areas.
She even talked about the fact that it's just a short walk past the Wise Shelter to the boundary line of the State park, therefore we would be fine there.
If you look at a map you can see that following the AT or the Seed Orchard Road Trail (that we use to go from the campground parking to Wise Shelter) a short ways north east of Wise Shelter will take you out of the State Park & into the National Forest.
I don't remember the condition of the forests that way though.
I too will something make and joy in it's making
That may be. Looked like it had been there quite a while, as long as several months. Seemed like a caretakers camper, or maybe it is/was a club house for the horse riders.
I would kind of like to know, & in fact was one reason why I wanted to hike there this year.
When you have a backpack on, no matter where you are, you’re home.
PAIN is INEVITABLE. MISERY is OPTIONAL.
Awesome. That looks like a good solution.
Happy to hear that the Forest Ranger suggested this as it matches my experience with Forest Rangers in New England. They want us to enjoy and use our public spaces while being in compliance with the rules [which, btw, they didn't make up but have to enforce].
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