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  1. #31
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Jan 2007
    Tupelo, MS
    Quote Originally Posted by Shug View Post
    I have a synth (Climashield) UQ I made but have never used. Also had a synth sleeping bag for years .....never got it wet.
    How many folks actually have slept in a wet synthetic bag or quilt or have laid on a wet UQ?
    Been through some big storms with my down UQ Frankenquilt....never got it wet.....yet.
    I made the Climashield UQ just 'cause I had it and maybe to use if I ever go to the Smoky Mountains and it is gonna be rainy and really foggy.
    I have. Many years ago, and have not had that experience since, thank goodness. Our stuff sacks were supposed to be waterproof, but apparently not quite. Maybe I would have better luck today with today's material. That was a hike all day in blowing snow situation, and no doubt there was some sweating going on so that everything, clothing and sleeping bags, were at least quite damp. Others got wetter than me when they fell and slid down snow slicked banks into shallow creeks on their backs, or that night when a snow loaded branch broke and tore a big hole in their tarp. But I think overall, sweat and condensation inside various layers was the biggest problem that day.

    Though I have not had any similar experiences in the many years since that miserable day and night, I think I am glad that on day every body had all synthetic insulation rather than total down. If nothing else, every thing was dry by the next morning. By the time the sun came up, I was sleeping pretty toasty, but after a cold start at bedtime.

  2. #32
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Tupelo, MS
    Quote Originally Posted by dant8ro View Post
    800 Power-fill down = 1.68 clo/oz Dry and well cared for, wet not so much

    Primaloft one = .92 clo/oz Dry and .9 clo/oz wet.

    Climasheild XP = .82 clo/oz

    So down per oz is king, but if your going to get wet, like Ryvr said. You cant beat a good synthetic.

    clo/oz isn't everything, construction as Warbonnet guy pointed out makes a difference too!
    Quote Originally Posted by Strung out View Post
    Good info coming out here guys.

    It is quite amazing that top quality down is nearly twice as warm per ounce as the best synthetic that is easy to acquire.

    I too have used synthetic bags on most of my trips. They really do not get wet very often.

    I have been wet in really bad storms when rain has blown under the rainfly of a tent, or when a tent floor leaks because of major flooding. (sometimes tent location choices are quite limited up there)

    If there is not proper weather to dry things out soon after, you can have a wet bag for a night or more following a good storm.

    I will go ahead with my synthetic UQ, and give it a try.
    When I am ready to make the TQ, I will consider some down.
    I am always a little confused when I see such CLO ratings for down. Though that about matches what I would have always expected from what I have been told- about how much loftier and warmer down is than synthetic ( if both are dry ) - it conflicts with my recent experience. Now there is no doubt that 800 or 900 FP down is much thicker/loftier for the weight than is CS, but I'm not as sure about the warmth part.

    When I tested my original WB Climashield Yeti using only 1 layer of 2.5 oz/sq.yd in that short torso quilt, I was more than warm enough somewhere ~ 46 with 98% humidity, at least once I remembered my hat in the WB shelf about 0515. Other than the hat, all I had was jeans/cotton t-shirt and a summer weight quallofil bag as quilt.

    So as the layer under me was ~ 1 sq.yd in size, that means the insulation layer was about 2.5 oz. For a total quilt weight of about 9-10 oz.

    So my question has been, for a long time, can most people really sleep much warmer than the mid to hi 40s with a Yeti sized UQ that only has 2.5 oz. of 800 FP down in it? According to the above CLO figures, it should be way warmer. If that is the case, shouldn't I be able to sleep well below the 40s with no other clothing layers with a Yeti that has only 2.5oz of 800 down? Theoretically, but I don't see that happening. It is true that a 3 season Yeti is rated for 20-25F, but it has 6.5 oz of 850 down!

    Does any one make a summer torso UQ with only 2.5 oz of down? Or say 5 oz for a full length? I notice a 40F rated full length HG incubator has 7 oz of 900(?) FP down. If you managed to cut that in half for a shorter UQ, that would be 3.5 oz., and I guess even heavier if using 800 FP.

    So all of that makes me question whether dry 800 FP down really has a CLO of 1.68 while CS has only 0.82.

    As per my experience above, it seems to roughly match what Ayce over at ThruHiker has said:
    The rule of thumb for clo values is that 2 is good to around 40 degrees, 4 to 20 degrees, and 6 to 0.
    The above Yeti UQ would have had a CLO of .82 X 2.5= 2.05, or by the rule of thumb good to about 40. I would call it 45 without adding fleece jackets and such. But by the above 800 FP rating of 1.68 clo/oz X 2.5 oz = CLO of 4.2. By rule of thumb good to below 20F. I don't think I could be warm at ~ 20 with a torso UQ with just 2.5 oz of 800 down. It seems questionable if I could even do 40. With that 1.60 CLO value, I should be able to do 40 with just ~ 1.2 oz of 800 down, even less 900 FP. I don't think so, not even bone dry.

    It seems to me you are going to need at least ( or almost ) 2.5 oz of 800 down to equal the warmth of a Climashield layer weighing 2.5 oz. Leaving me to wonder just how much warmer- per weight - is 800 down than Climashield, even with both dry. Now it is definitely much loftier, and definitely packs down much smaller, a good advantage. I'm just not sure how much warmer it is per unit weight. And I think maybe not as much as I have always thought. Just mainly based on personal experience.

  3. #33
    Senior Member ibgary's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Dangerbird, (custom) thanks Papa
    10x10 DIY
    DIY insultex.
    Woopie, UCR

    Re: Down vs Primaloft One questions

    Great thread. Good info, I like reading the experience factor. It means more than the number and industry talking points.

    Last month I tossed a 20+ yr old REI Volcano bag. I used it a lot often with nothing but a ground pad and the stars above. I was rained and snowed on with no cover, but never got soaked through or cold. Well I did get cold last yr. I was using it in the hammock with no UQ.

    Question. I'm going to DIY using Primaloft One. What is the most comfortable nylon to use for the shell?:beer:

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