Let's all try to be a little more respectful, please. So we disagree with DP's business practices and tactics...that doesn't mean the forum's rules on respectful behavior are waived.
Originally Posted by HF's TOS
“Republics are created by the virtue, public spirit, and intelligence of the citizens. They fall when the wise are banished from the public councils because they dare to be honest, and the profligate are rewarded because they flatter the people, in order to betray them.” ~Judge Joseph Story
- My site: http://www.tothewoods.net/
- Designer, Jeff's Gear Hammock / Pack Cover by JRB
IMPOSSIBLE JUST TAKES LONGER
And I repeat...
Some of us are trying to help you...
Good luck in your endeavor.[/QUOTE]
Some of us are trying to help you...
dp, i wasn't trying to be disrespectful at all so hope it didn't come out like that, i was just trying to stop the misinformation i saw being spread.
big pockets of dead air space are poor insulators, this is a fact. this concept is used sucessfully in certain applications. for instance hanging a poncho liner loosely under the hammock will trap some heat (noticeable compared nothing at all). An un-insulated sock traps some heat too, but adding air pockets between the hammock and underquilt detracts from, and in no way, adds to it's potential warmth. type of insulation doesn't matter because the heat isn't being lost through the insulation, it's being lost through the non-insulative hammock fabric that makes up the top portion of the air pocket.
the fact that a user can meet the temp rating is good, but the statement that the dead air pockets are helping (making the quilt warmer) is simply not true, (and that is what i had issue with). it doesn't matter what kind of fabric is used, the dead air space reduces the efficiency of the quilt due to the factors already stated. even if the fabric is a full on vapor barrier, heat can still travel through it quite easily.
the fact that you think dead air space is beneficial is of no surprise, the eno synthetic underquilt looked like it was based off the same concept, so it's understandable that one might think that, but it's still incorrect, and it's not beneficial to the community as a whole to have people misinformed.
if i made a statement that "pulling your suspension tighter reduces force on the system" i'd expect to get called out on that right away. this situation is no different, so don't take it personally.
Wow, what a thread! I just read the whole thing. I had planned to be out hiking and testing the GrizzBridge- rather than Cyber hiking- but it's too danged hot! So I'm reading this thread instead!
Seems like a lot of disagreement arose over the refusal to provide the exact type of polyester insulation used. Understandable considering the fine details we often get into here at HF. Then again, I have seen some of the big names use some sort of - oh heck I can't remember the word- proprietary or something like that?- but their own special say for ex. North Face synthetic insulation. With a temp rating and weight. I guess in that case you decide if it is true to it's rating(reviews and word of mouth) and if it is a good price.
And as for not ordering unless you know exactly what you are ordering, again, understandable. Then again, when I got my WB Climashield Yeti, Climashield had temporarily become unavailable. I think I might have got the very last one Brandon ever made, he immediately switched to down and has not looked back. The sewn in perm layer was indeed supposed tp be 2.5 oz XP, but that was all he had and all he could get from his supplier. He ended up sending me some other Climashield from another source. We were never able to figure out for sure exactly what he sent me, though it seemed a reasonable guess that it was 3.8 oz Combat Climashield. So, I got a WB UQ and still don't know for sure what insulates it. I do know for sure that it is one warm Mamajamba! Super warm for the weight whether with the sewn in original 1st layer of 2.5 oz, or with 1 - 3 layers of added mystery insulation.
As for 1/2" loft, I can't help but notice that Climashield Apex ( and XP) 2.5 oz has ~ 0.6" loft, and I think that was rated at ~ 40F? I have taken that one layer into the high 40s and been fine.
The dead air space is a mystery to me- I usually think of that being what is inside various insulations and how they work- dead air. But as for an air space- between me and the insulation?- that doesn't seem to work for me. IOW, the above mentioned WB UQ works way better for me when it is plenty snug against my back. Even if all seems well sealed around the edges, it is noticeably warmer when I snug it up a bit beyond that so it is tight against my back. Same with my other quilts and HHSS and PeaPod, closer is better. Though with non-dif cut models (PeaPod) you can get TOO close and compress loft. However, what about the air spaces under the Clarks? Does that add warmth?
Also re: the "space" thing- the 4" vs 1/2" debate, that was strange to me as I have noticed just the opposite with other brands of UQs. IOW, most of my UQs- even the dif cut models- seem to have more ( and a lot more in some cases like my PeaPod) loft on the floor than they do in use on my hammock. For ex. my PeaPod has way more than the rated loft on the floor, but is probably about as rated or a bit more in use, even if hung pretty loose and not quite touching my back. ( this is talking more about the UQ part than the "TQ" part, which stays closer to "floor" loft) However, every one of them is at least as warm as rated- for me.
But it seems with the DP model loft is increased when in use? But that is probably moot as the rating is still ~ 40s, about what you might expect from 1/2" of polyester insulation.
Oh well! I know you are done with this thread DP, but I wish you luck in your endeavors! And whatever your insulation actually is, testers will soon determine if there is good warmth there for the weight (considering it is synthetic) and money. And if it is, then for many folks it won't really matter much what it is. I am encouraged that you actually encourage putting your head inside and not worrying about moisture!
Look forward to reading more testing!
Apparently, signature that I used from 2006 no longer tolerated so now deleted.
I went out again this weekend, second time using this quilt combo... Thursday 5-12 until today, Sunday 5-15. I was in a place called Pine Ridge Campground in New Bloomfield, MO. Thur night - 58 deg F, Fri night 51 deg F, Sat night 48 deg F. I've posted enough info that you can pull up the weather to confirm.
I was cold again... at this point I do not trust this gear below 60 deg F. I really hate to say this since I can't complain about the quality but it doesn't keep me warm. I have tested setting my rig up in the basement dozens of times now so I don't think there is a flaw with how I'm rigging it all up.
Clothing worn - dry Smartwool hiking socks, pants, ss shirt, ls shirt, wool shirt, 100 weight fleece, ball cap.
Where cold - toes were frozen, heals cold, butt and back were just cool enough to be uncomfortable.
Head hole 10/10 (I love this feature)
Warmth 4/10 (sorry)
If anybody has any questions please feel free to ask and I will try to answer them.
Let me add that I would buy this quilt combo again... I just wish I knew what temps it would keep me warm at prior to buying.