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  1. #1
    Senior Member BigTurtle's Avatar
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    alternative to down

    i was just wandering if their was a close alternative to goose down cause its so expencive. ive done some research and found the only website that i see sells bulk down http://www.shopdownlite.com and for a diy tq&uq its gonna cost 150 for just the down not counting the fabric so was wandering that is the characterristics of down that makes it so good. isnt the whole purpose of down to fluff the outer layers of the tq so the space fills with air. and then isnt it mostly the air that your body heats up to form the insulating area. which in turns keeps you warn "by the way if i am wrong plzz correct me " so my thought is would anything that can inflate forsay the space between the fabric to create the air gap work the same as down. "may not be as light"
    so i was thinking about air beads or really soft inflated foam. which should pack tight withought the fear of squshing it like you are with down. again it will never be as light or pack as small.

    anyway just trying to get some info. thanks

    BT

  2. #2
    Senior Member Joey's Avatar
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    There was a very long and detailed thread/discussion on the fill power of down and it's insulating properties that explains how it works to keep you warm that I'll not repeat. Simply put, nothing beats the weight/warmth ratio of down, but geese don't give up feather cheaply so it's most always more $$.

    IX, or insultex, is a nice alternative. Figuring how many layers of IX you need for different temps can vary from person to person. I have a 2 layer IX TQ that I've slept warm down to 40F, and known others to use the same model and be cold at 50F. So for me, temps 45F and above I take my IX quilt, below that it's down all the way. Synthetics tend to not pack as small as down. When winter backpacking, space in the pack becomes premium with all else necessary to take. It's all about choices, and very personal because you are the one that will be using it.

  3. #3
    Senior Member AaronAlso's Avatar
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    BT,

    I thought I would explain a little of how insulation works. Yes, your body heats up the air which is what is keeping you warm. However, the warming of that air causes it to move, as we all know hot air rises. It's this movement of air that we wish to prevent; as this is how the air in turns cools off. Goose down acts as a damper to prevent the warmed air from moving around and cooling off. Goose down works so well because of it's microscopic structure; which entraps air, creating billions of "dead air" spaces. Lots of things will work; some work better than others. It is my experience that for the weight, size, & warmth nothing beats goose down. My experience with IX is limited, but from what I've read it may be the closest synthetic alternative to down.
    Last edited by AaronAlso; 09-04-2011 at 06:43. Reason: typo
    "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." -Plato

  4. #4
    Senior Member
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    OTOH down has a problem with wet. If you are going to be in a basically dry climate it's wonderful. If not life can get interesting in a multiple day rain event.

    Interesting article, read the comments:

    http://www.backpacker.com/gear/ask_kristin/9

    Here is another:

    http://www.trailspace.com/forums/bac...ics/45314.html

    The issue for DIY is finding instructions on how to handle a particular insulation assuming you can buy it at all. That leaves me thinking the buy a bag and modify it approach may be better. I think there is at least one cottage supplier making synthetic quilts.

  5. #5
    Senior Member MAD777's Avatar
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    Bigturtle, do you backpack or car camp? This answer to this question will lead you in different directions. We can then recommend a solution more specific to your needs.
    Mike
    "Life is a Project!"

  6. #6
    Senior Member DaleW's Avatar
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    Down delivers high loft for the weight and compresses well for travel. The better synthetics are made to mimic those properties. With all the insulation fillers, the game is to stop convection currents in the space you create to separate your warm body from the cold air. The higher the loft, the more dead air space you get for the weight: a pound of 900 rated down will fill a larger space than 700 rated down. Or 900 down filling the same space as 700 will weigh less. Synthetics don't deliver the same loft/weight as down, but they can be better in wet conditions, allow different construction techniques and cost less. If you rip a synthetic fill jacket, it won't leak like down and laundering is easier. Synthetics tend to lose more loft over time than down. All the lofty fillers should be stored uncompressed and not compressed too much for travel as it breaks down the fibers.

    An uninsulated air mattress is a good example: you have an isolated space, but the air inside is free to move, and currents of air transfer the heat of you body to the cold ground below. If you fill the space with synthetic fibers, down, or foam, the air can't move freely and the heat transfer is slowed.

    Whatever the fill, the simple physics are that the higher the loft (the dead air space created), the warmer you will be. There are lots of variables and compromises. Radiant surfaces can reflect some heat back towards your body, but there are no miracles. Systems and materials that claim light weight and warmth in sub-freezing conditions with little loft need to be looked at with a skeptical eye.

    The rest of the game is getting a capsule that is as light as possible and breathes, but doesn't leak down or let too much air through. It needs to be tough enough to wear or sleep in, compressing for travel and survive laundering, as well as having some wind resistance and water repellent properties.

    The moisture produced by your body is the thing that really mucks things up and a lot of compromises are made to deal with that. In really cold weather, the moisture migrates out into the filler and will freeze in the insulation as it reaches the outer layers. If you accumulate a lot of moisture, the filler will clump up (especially down), lose it's loft and the insulating value. That is what vapor barriers are all about-- you keep the warm moist air captured next to your body and out of the insulation. It is a balancing act-- you might find yourself swimming in cold sweat, which would be very bad. Vapor barriers work in sub-zero temps for sleeping gear because those conditions are usually quite dry and you aren't sweating much. For me, it is conditions like 40F and 95% humidity that are the real challenge--- it is cold, and the air is saturated, so your body moisture and dew condense in your insulation and it gets soggy. Hello hypothermia!

    Primaloft, Climashield, Polarguard and Thinsulate are the top products for synthetic fillers. There is a good list of fillers and properties at http://www.sierratradingpost.com/lp2...nthetic-guide/

    There is a good Wiki on all of this at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_comfort

  7. #7
    Senior Member AaronAlso's Avatar
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    This discussion has gotten me thinking; could 100% sheep's wool roving or batting be used as a natural alternative to down? Wool has some unique properties itself and the products like roving & batting for spinning wool and felting have quite alot of loft to them. I don't think it would be any better than down but could perhaps be a whole new market of quilts. Granted just like down wool has some special care required to insure it remains soft and lofty; washing in woolite only and drying without heat will keep it from felting.

    I honestly don't know enough about the long term effects to be certain. Maybe someone else has better input. This was just a thought that came to mind and seemed feisible.
    "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." -Plato

  8. #8
    Senior Member FLRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronAlso View Post
    This discussion has gotten me thinking; could 100% sheep's wool roving or batting be used as a natural alternative to down? Wool has some unique properties itself and the products like roving & batting for spinning wool and felting have quite alot of loft to them. I don't think it would be any better than down but could perhaps be a whole new market of quilts. Granted just like down wool has some special care required to insure it remains soft and lofty; washing in woolite only and drying without heat will keep it from felting.

    I honestly don't know enough about the long term effects to be certain. Maybe someone else has better input. This was just a thought that came to mind and seemed feisible.
    My own (limited) research into this suggests that--while wool is extremely warm versus other insulators when wet, tough, and cheap--it's also rather heavy on a per-volume basis. If you're going to be car or bike camping, it might be a very viable choice. However, if you're backpacking, well...unless you want to be wearing a Great Kilt all day long, it's probably not a weight-efficient choice.

    Of course, that's from probably about an hour of looking at various websites, not a thoroughly detailed research effort. I may be completely wrong.

  9. #9
    Senior Member G.L.P.'s Avatar
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    Down really doesn't coat that much... it's only alittle more then it's synth counterparts IE Climashield,Primaloft ... most vendors sell it for $6.50 an oz
    i just made a winter UQ good down to 15F for around $80
    for a down UQ that is very cheap

    i just did the math for a TQ

    Down from Hammockgear pre packed anyway you want it 6.50x12oz = $78 with shipping

    Ripstop from BWDD would be around $4 a yard you need 6 yards thats $24

    thats $102 for a TQ
    if you shop around you will find good deals ... don't get your down from big bow stores ... get it from a vendor you will get a better price
    It puts the Underquilt on it's hammock ... It does this whenever it gets cold

  10. #10
    Senior Member DaleW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronAlso View Post
    This discussion has gotten me thinking; could 100% sheep's wool roving or batting be used as a natural alternative to down?
    Nice idea, but it would be heavy and wouldn't fluff back to full loft like down. Compress wool tightly and it's called felt! It's all about compressing for travel and getting the full loft back when unpacked. After all these years of experimenting and research, down is still the benchmark.

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