Using a carabiner to clip directly into a marlin spike hitch.

[Towellie]

Whoopies directly around a tree could and will damage certain trees, especially soft bark trees. If you do use just whoopies, add plenty of sticks vertically between the whoopie & tree. You could set-up 100 times with no tree damage, on the 101st time you get tree damage. Then maybe someone sees it, raises a fuss, next thing you know. No hammocks allowed in the park. From there it could only snowball. 4oz. or so of extra weight for tree straps to prevent tree damage as best you can is like no weight at all. Cut the weight somewhere else. Shorten the whoopies, shorten the straps for the area you hike in mostly, take one less of something.

Here is a recent pic from a fellow member that had to use whoopies but didn't use sticks to relieve pressure on the tree. If you look close enough, you can see the whoopie sinking into the bark. Sure, its not much, but to the right person, that is tree damage that could have been avoided by using a tent.

http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/a...9&d=1316565760

Point taken, however laying a tent on the ground damages thousands of plants, blades of grass, etc. You are not "hurting" the tree. less than a pencil width of a line across tree bark of a tree over 3" in diameter will do NOTHING that is going to make that tree not be there next time. Some people are ridiculous about the "Leave No Trace" policy. I understand the purpose of it, I myself leave nothing behind, however we humans are as much a part/product of nature as every single other organism on the planet. Every time a deer rubs a tree a hippie doesn't cry. Find me one case of a rope killing a tree or doing any more damage than a dear rubbing or a strong wind gust blowing one entirely over. Bark is not the life force of trees. There are more bucks rubbing the crap out of trees than people hanging in hammocks. Ridiculous nitpicking. IMHO LOL....Sorry about the vent guys, I just don't understand. People complain about a strip of bark being crushed on one out of every 20 million trees, versus a 25 square foot area completely crushed by a tent. Don't get it.

[JBizzle]

But what about all the ground vegetation tent dwellers are laying on? ...and all that ground I stepped on to get to camp... Is that damaged property? I'm not sure my ropes are doing any more damage than a squirrel running up a tree. I've seen fences grown into healthy tree trucks, do you think flaking off 1/100th" of bark dust is killing trees? How did that fence get inside that tree? Did the trunk *gasp* self-heal? If the consensus is that I am "killing" trees, I'll stop using straight rope, but IMHO I'm not doing any unrecoverable damage.

[dejoha]

I'm not trying to convert anyone I just am not getting the MSH hoopla.

I guess it all depends on how much flexibility and adjustment you need. In my set-up, I go for the simple, much like you describe. If I'm going to bring along a climbing carabiner, I might as well clip the hammock's suspension line (whoopie sling) to the anchor point (webbing strap) as simply as possible.

However, I've used mini carabiners as toggles and this is where the Marlinspike hitch comes in. The toggle represents a lighter solution for gram-weenies like me.

[dejoha]

Sorry about the vent guys, I just don't understand. People complain about a strip of bark being crushed on one out of every 20 million trees, versus a 25 square foot area completely crushed by a tent. Don't get it.

I hope I'm not repeating anything here. In a pristine area, you are probably right. Any slight damage is negligible. Here in Flagstaff, Arizona, bull elk, deer, and bear do more damage to trees than any roped hammock.

Now, in a popular area, especially campgrounds, repeated hammock use can cause damage, just like tents impact an area and cause "site creep." I think this is where tree straps really come into play because you reduce the long-term impact.

Using tree straps as a habit is good practice for those times when it really counts. We've already seen and heard of campgrounds prohibiting hammocks, or anything tied to a tree/vegetation, because of overuse damage.

Leave No Trace is not _law_, but the principles provide good practice techniques so that when you visit an area again it looks as "natural" as the first time you visited.

[canoebie]

I hope I'm not repeating anything here. In a pristine area, you are probably right. Any slight damage is negligible. Here in Flagstaff, Arizona, bull elk, deer, and bear do more damage to trees than any roped hammock.

Now, in a popular area, especially campgrounds, repeated hammock use can cause damage, just like tents impact an area and cause "site creep." I think this is where tree straps really come into play because you reduce the long-term impact.

Using tree straps as a habit is good practice for those times when it really counts. We've already seen and heard of campgrounds prohibiting hammocks, or anything tied to a tree/vegetation, because of overuse damage.

Leave No Trace is not _law_, but the principles provide good practice techniques so that when you visit an area again it looks as "natural" as the first time you visited.

Well said, gotta think of the impact of what we do times thousands.

[MAD777]

For me, one of the purposes of Whoopie Slings is to lighten your gear. There is still a tree strap required for going around the tree. But, my strap with whoopies is 5' long instead of the 14' long straps that came with my hammock. The minimum length of the tree strap depends on where you hang. Sequoia National Park requires some pretty long straps but my 5' will get me around a 1.5' diameter tree which is plenty where I hike.

Tree straps are a requirement in my book because they are more LNT than ropes. But, most importantly, there is the subject of perception of impact. Those that have been following threads here on HF know that there are places that do not allow any hammocks at all. The perception is that hammockers are damaging trees. These perceptions came from somewhere; probably from some hangers not caring about the environment that they are enjoying.

For instance, no one can hang in any state park in my state of Florida because officials don't trust us to not damage the trees. So, perception is important to all of us because a few bad practices can and does affect the rest of us.

[BearChaser]

Wait a minute now. I'm not trying to get into an argument here. I was just stating a concern with using thin ropes directly against a tree. I never said anything about killing a tree, or what animals that actually live in the woods do to trees. Believe me, bear can scar/kill a tree quick. I also realize how much damage a tent does to the plants and such on the ground. They have been used for quite some time, hammocks however are becoming more popular and we are going to see more and more in the woods. I just think its up to those of us who are currently using hammocks to set a good example of how little impact they have to anything. Those fences in the middle of a tree was put there long ago by people, and probably by a previous land owner who can do what they please with their land, even cut the tree down. We can also see abuse when visiting maintained camp sites with all the nails and stuff in trees. We also have laws against using screw in type tree steps on government owned property, but can use them on your own property if we so desire. Does it kill a tree, no, does it scar the tree, yes.

If you want to use thin rope directly around the tree, so be it, its your choice in the matter since we have no rules/laws against it. Doesnt affect me one way or another right now. I just wanted to state my opinion on what could happen if done enough times and to the right trees, and the wrong people see it and want to bring up that fact. The world today is full of people that don't know any better or don't have enough to complain about. Why do you think we have warnings all over the place, like don't drink that bottle of heet, or don't use the hair dryer in the bath tub. Just because we currently don't have a law or warning for something doesn't mean it wont be a law or warning in the future. All it would take is one person that see's it as harm, they argue their point, we argue ours against tents or what have you, we win, hopefully. Then it happens again, we keep winning, but why should it even reach that point for a few ounces?

[Shewie]

I'm not sure I understand what you're suggesting Nick, are you fixing your whoopies to the carabiners or still looping them over the knot of the MSH?

If you clipping on the crabs then there's not much point for a MSH is there? Surely a fixed loop or overhand knot on the tree strap would do?

I've probably got the wrong end of the stick as usual

[TFC Rick]

I'm not sure I understand what you're suggesting Nick, are you fixing your whoopies to the carabiners or still looping them over the knot of the MSH?

If you clipping on the crabs then there's not much point for a MSH is there? Surely a fixed loop or overhand knot on the tree strap would do?

I've probably got the wrong end of the stick as usual

I think you are right Shewie. If you look at the diagram, and turn the biner 90 degrees (IMO) you have the best setup. Still using a Larkshead/Marlin deal but with the added benefit of having a spot to clip stuff. Plus your whoopie won't/cant slide off.

We kinda got off topic there for a second.

[BearChaser]

I think you are right Shewie. If you look at the diagram, and turn the biner 90 degrees (IMO) you have the best setup. Still using a Larkshead/Marlin deal but with the added benefit of having a spot to clip stuff. Plus your whoopie won't/cant slide off.

We kinda got off topic there for a second.

I like this idea, I already carry a couple spare Biners which I use to carry camp shoes off of. Why not get rid of the extra weight of my toggles and just use the Biners.

Do you guys have any trouble getting the knot over the little hook in a biner after a night? Sorry for getting off topic.