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  1. #1
    Senior Member scum's Avatar
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    Exclamation Condensation Concerns

    So my last campout saw 8*F temps overnight. Normally, in cold temps I pitch my tarp low and toss a poncho liner over the top for an overcover to help boost my insulation. I also have a cheap but descent 0* sleeping bag as a TQ.

    After a few hours of sleep, I woke up to my poncho liner raining on me because of the condensation build of from my breath. I tried venting it considerably, but it only got worse. So I just tossed it off completely. Then, my tarp started to build up some condensation but not nearly as bad. However, now my hammock material closest to my face started to build up some ice and the top of my sleeping bag essentially turned into a very thin layer of frost.

    I tossed the bag over my face. I did not build up any condensation inside the bag and the rest of my setup maintained whatever it had already built up.

    I've had this happen 1 other time and it was also when I dipped into the single digit temps (coincidentally at 8*F as well). I should note, I was near a river and roughly 50yds from a hotsprings so the moisture in the air was probably contributing as well. However, my fellow tent campers didn't have nearly as much condensations issues as I did.

    So 1st question:
    Obviously, I can't do the poncho liner in such cold temps because it's not breathing enough?! Which sucks because it really adds a nice boost normally. Possibly, it would be OK if I vented ALOT more to begin with? Would appreciate anyone's input on this. I know a lot of people use an insulated overcover so it's gotta be a common issue.

    2nd question:
    When you guys pitch the tent low and tight to trap in heat, how low and tight do you go? Mine was nearly (but not quite) touching the hammock top so, on it's own, acting much like an overcover. Do I need to pitch a bit higher for more venting?

    3rd question:
    This is my biggest concern. Luckily, I had a synthetic TQ so a little moisture on it was OK and it still managed to keep me warm. I currently have some 850fp down and am gearing up to start making a new TQ. I've seen some references to people using DWR layers on the top/bottom layer for various reasons. What's the standard here to protect the down from condensation build up on a TQ? It makes sense to have dwr on bottom to prevent sweat from rising into the down.

    However, if I had the down TQ with this campout, it would have been real bad when I had so much frost/moisture on top. So, it also makes sense to have dwr on top to prevent moisture from 'dripping'/building up on top and getting into the down. However, I see having dwr on top and bottom as being bad for trapping moisture? Obviously, I'm a bit confused on what the best method should be and after this debacle, I'm really concerned about moisture buildup in the deep cold.

    4th related question:
    It was nice to be able to toss the bag over my head which helped me stay warmer and prevented the moisture build up from getting worse. If I have dwr material on the bottom of the TQ, will I be able to do the same? If not, what about sewing on a flap of say fleece or something that hangs off the top of the bag long enough to toss over the face? Might seem like a goofy question, but I often sleep with the bag over my face w/ a portion vented to allow for fresh air so it's a valid concern for me.

  2. #2
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Scum, very interesting post! The last thing you mention is maybe the 1st thing to look into, i.e. a frost bib like shug and others have promoted. Shug's version is some fleece with a head hole, which hangs from his ridge line. I have not had a chance to use one, no weather cold enough this year down south. No good testing temps for me this year! All I have been able to test is how little I can get away with at merely cool temps. But last winter or the one before, I was out at 11F (similar to your problem temps) using my Golite 20F TQ plus some warm clothing to get by on top. I was in a JRB bridge with a JRB MW4 below.
    http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/s...ead.php?t=6843

    I would have got by- barely- in that Golite was it not for the condensation on my TQ on the layer covering my neck. The Golite has Pertex Endurance shell material in the neck area, supposedly waterproof. The outer shell seemed soaked, though all loft was not lost. Still, I think that wet shell was a big contributor to me not being warm enough. I switched to a 5*F Polarguard bag, and it also got soaked by condensation, but it made no difference in that bag. I laughed at the cold in that bag even quilt style on my side. Once I got inside the bag for back sleeping, I was luxuriously warm.

    But I really think if I had a frost bib, I might have been OK in the 21 oz Golite.

    So you put your head in the bag and got away with it, and in fact warmed up? I'm really not all that surprised with a synthetic bag. It is hard to say if you would have got away with that with a down bag. If you get a lot of condensation on the inside of the shell, you won't get away with it. However, on a 10F night in my PeaPod, I had it closed down to a very small breathing hole most of the night. But the last hour or two, I closed it all the way. And was rewarded with a BIG boost in warmth. There was no apparent condensation, every thing seemed dry and loft seemed unchanged. Unfortunately, I did not weigh the pod before it had some dry out time. So it might well have had some condensation that would have added up after a few nights of that. Anyway, I definitely got away with it that night.
    Last edited by BillyBob58; 01-30-2012 at 22:14.

  3. #3
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    The big boys who really know how to deal with cold and condensation should check in soon! But here is a thought about using that overcover. What about instead- along with a frost bib- not using an overcover and instead using some more loft if needed? An extra oz or 3 of down or Climashield/Polarguard might add more warmth than a poncho liner, and not add anything to your condensation problems.

  4. #4
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    That moisure is probably coming from you. at 13* I took off my clothes and watched the steam coming off of me. That's the dry cold air trying to balance the difference between the warmth and moisture on me.

    Also, a poncho liner is synthetic insulation which is usually a good windblocker as well. So it probably doesn't let a whole lot of vapor pass through. And the fact your breath is so warm compared to how cold that PL is, especially on the outside layer. It probably freezes relatively quickly and that probably further blocks moisture from getting out, but not touching the freezing parts of the PL so instead it stays liquid and drenches you. Freezes before getting through the insulation trapping moisture. I'm assuming.

    I also don't pitch my tarp too close to my face because of condensation. I'd rather give my breathe some time to escape being right in front of me before it touches something and condenses. I also either put something under my face on my chest to catch my breath or face outward so I don't wake up with any pools on my TQ.

  5. #5
    SilvrSurfr's Avatar
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    I recently converted to a Hammock Gear down TQ, and I must admit, it is hard to avoid pulling the thing over my head to keep my face warm during cold weather. Years of using my trusty synthetic Qualllofill 0* sleeping bag just makes this second nature.

    I'm seriously considering getting some kind of synthetic insulated face bib that I can pull over my face, it can collect condensation and lose little of its insulative qualities - while keeping my down free from condensation.

    I've tried the balaclava and just don't like it for sleeping.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilvrSurfr View Post
    I recently converted to a Hammock Gear down TQ, and I must admit, it is hard to avoid pulling the thing over my head to keep my face warm during cold weather. Years of using my trusty synthetic Qualllofill 0* sleeping bag just makes this second nature.

    I'm seriously considering getting some kind of synthetic insulated face bib that I can pull over my face, it can collect condensation and lose little of its insulative qualities - while keeping my down free from condensation.

    I've tried the balaclava and just don't like it for sleeping.
    That's nuts, I dont' even get the urge like with my old sleeping bags, I'm usually greatful to have some part of me exposed to counter the warmth. Especially if I'm wearing a beanie too. Never considered myself a hot sleeper but I may be after all. Actualy thought I was a cold sleeper. This is with little food as well before bed.

    I'm digging your face bib idea though

  7. #7
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    I use a wool buff to catch the condensation and still use an over cover.

  8. #8
    SilvrSurfr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slo View Post
    That's nuts, I dont' even get the urge like with my old sleeping bags, I'm usually greatful to have some part of me exposed to counter the warmth. Especially if I'm wearing a beanie too. Never considered myself a hot sleeper but I may be after all. Actualy thought I was a cold sleeper. This is with little food as well before bed.

    I'm digging your face bib idea though
    I know what you're saying about exposing part of the body to counteract the warmth. As a hot sleeper, I won't hesitate to toss an arm or a leg out from under the TQ to regulate my body temp. If that happens to help me reach my desired body temp, then that appendage might be outside all night long, with no ill effects.

    However, I've got the Irish and German blood in me and my face is not happy being exposed to cold. Exposing my face to cold usually results in something that looks like a sunburn. It's something to do with getting old, I think.

    A face bib, or what I am envisioning, would be synthetic insulation that would sit over the face, kind of like a down beenie but worn over the face with plenty of air flow, maybe even a hole or two for air flow. It would create a microclimate for the face. It would provide the same functionality as Shug's fleece frost bib, but all the condensation would be captured in the synthetic insulation rather than on the Shug fleece bib.

  9. #9
    Senior Member scum's Avatar
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    Really liking the bib idea. I'm envisioning something that will both act as a 'bib' and be able to cover my face if wanted/needed. I'm picturing essentially something like the 'hood' of my sleeping bag but made w/ fleece - possibly with some synthetic insulation between a couple layers.

    This way, I could normally flop the hood back onto the TQ so it covers the top of the quilt from my breath. Then when I want, flop the hood over my face and any moisture will hopefully be wicked away with the fleece material.

    Now how about the shell material? DWR on bottom or top or neither?

    Thanks again guys!

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