Tarp Pole Mod

[BlueSkies]

Stormcrow, thank you for your insights. I couldn't agree more, but I can't imagine where the line would be drawn.

My OES has pull outs and sometime last summer I tossed my hiking poles over the tarp ridge line hooked the tips into some shock cord loops. Bingo. 2 bars over the ridge. But even I am sure this was not my idea. I'm sure I read it or talked to some one about it, saw a photo. I am positive the idea came from the forum somewhere. So who's the originator? Where is the line? I would hope that this could be discussed here, but I see how this may tow that "religion" & "politics" line.

[oldgringo]

I have read, and re-read this thread, searching for clarity that just won't come. Just when I think I've staked out a position, that little voice says, "Yeah, but..."

In a perfect world...

[MedicineMan]

Stormcrow and PapaSmurf offer serious thought to the conumdrum AngrySparrow points out.
I remember when the Jacks offered the gear hammock (I think it was called) and gave full credit to JustJeff for the idea...and I'm sure got his blessing to bring it to market.
I also remember a story (right or wrong) of the Jacks with a 'python' as an alternative to Hennessey's patented snakeskins....and when nudged (not pushed) the Jacks pulled the pythons off the market--out of respect? threat? matters not, they did the right thing in their eyes.
So lately I've been using my hammock sock more and more, and in combo with various UQs and pods.
Who invented the hammock sock?
Does it go back all the way to the Garlington Taco? (I doubt few here are old enough to remember that!)
In my world one molecule pointing up (axial) versus beta (pointing down), but same OH molecule=different patent....so a SEEP that opens left versus right=sometimes rediculous.
What happens when a great idea comes up but the vendors are too busy with what they've already got on the table? Example, I still wish the 40F pod was still available, say someone sees the merit of such and wants to start making a 40F pod-who do they contact? Speer? Tree-to-Tree? or variant it just a little like the molecule above-enough to get them past the patent attorney if pushed.
There will be no answer(s) to these querries because it's like the constitutional form of government-dependent on the morality of those living under it-thus our vendors are charged and pressed into service based on fairness, honestly, and trustworthyness. We as the recipients are truly blessed in having good solid vendors.
Now where is my hammock sock with a waterproof breathable top?

[MAD777]

This is a great discussion going on here. Yes, it's a somewhat sensitive topic but one we all need as a reminder of the importance of our ethics whether it involves hammock gear or anything else in life.

Knotty's point about stifling innovation is well taken!

[GrizzlyAdams]

Someone asked me to post my opinion on this, if I had any, and would.

Many good points have been made here. Clear lines don't always (often?) exist. On reflection, I see that my own position places more weight on attribution of an idea than on who has in some sense "the right" to make gear expressing it. Legal protections for the latter exist, although aren't practical on a small scale.

An example. Years ago the SnugFit designed by Youngblood and manufactured by Speer introduced the Big Idea of a differentially cut underquilt. Most UQs now sold have some embodiment of that idea, and variations on how to achieve that appear to me from what I've read to be pretty small among the cottage industry that makes them. So I'd take some umbrage at someone coming along and making grandiose claims about their amazing differential cut ideas without giving credit where credit is due. Of course, credit is due also for those who saw their way clear to expressing a differential cut in a way that makes it easier and less expensive to make UQs with it. In this sense competition is good.

Perhaps a distinction that matters to me is whether an idea pops up on HF, and ends up being commercialized by several vendors, or whether an idea is introduced in a product by a vendor, and then is seemingly copied by someone else, without attribution. My gut feeling is that the first case is great, and the second case leaves me with a bit of unease, in which case if I was in the market, I would vote with my pocketbook and avoid the copy.

blather off.

[WV]

Perhaps a distinction that matters to me is whether an idea pops up on HF, and ends up being commercialized by several vendors, or whether an idea is introduced in a product by a vendor, and then is seemingly copied by someone else, without attribution. My gut feeling is that the first case is great, and the second case leaves me with a bit of unease, in which case if I was in the market, I would vote with my pocketbook and avoid the copy.

blather off.

Blather on, Griz. Well said.

It is both laudable and (legally) laughable that we hold ourselves to higher standards than the wider marketplace. It seems to me that give and take is how "prior art" comes about. Our cottage vendors have the trickiest balancing act here, and it's a testimony to all of them that equilibrium has generally been maintained. It is a great talent to come up with a really good idea, but it is also a skill to recognize one and bring it to market. I imagine that a good part of that skill involves knowing what your customers will value.

[WildernessLogics]

First of all i want to apologize if i have stepped on anyone's toes by offering a diy pole kit for our tarps. It has been removed from our website. I also want to give a shout out to the first person who came up with a under quilt with shock cord suspension, top quilts , tarps, tarps with side panel pulls, stand alone bug nets and tarp skins.i recognized knotty as we used his diy design in our hammocks. It says knotty designed hammock. Its hard to say who comes up with a design first when several things are in the making they are not always put on hammock forum for several months. This diy idea came to me from a customer who purchased one of our tarps 6 months ago and sent me a pic of his tarp on a hang. He had 2 sticks over his tarp attached to side panel pulls, and asked me if i could come up with something to fit our tarp using carbon or aluminum poles to get this same effect. We have been working on this for a few months and just finally got all the quirks worked out.i want to thank all our customers for supporting us over the last year and i hope you continue to do so.

Marty from wilderness logics

[Redoleary]

In some defense of the OP, most people who take generic prescription drugs also "don't care" who came out with it first, they just want to reap the benefits of what that product does for them. I personally see the pole mod as a service rather than a product per se. I used have a Mt. Hwdr. tent that could be set up with the fly alone (sans tent) using the tent poles, is that so different from a tarp supported by poles? I guess my opinion is that there is a thin and blurry line between true innovation, and adaptation of existing design. Someone making Blackbird clones would IMO be out of line, but someone supporting a tarp with poles would be, I guess, copying the first company to make a hoop tent or similar with flexible poles. When you distill things down to the basic concept of whats really happening ie: fabric supported by poles, its hard to say who's idea that is. As I've said before in another thread, there are a number of gathered end hammock manufactures out there and no one seems to mind or feel that someone stole their design. Who should be credited with the gathered end hammock?
I have rarely, if ever, had an original idea, and I may adapt several different ideas into something that works for me, and if I make a video about it (as I so often do) I try to credit those who inspired the work. Take the Nacrabiener for example, Nacra credited Kohlhoff for the idea, but "we" effectively renamed Kohlhoffs product for a forum member. It just seems that we are not overly consistent with what we deem to be appropriate behavior. Thats just my opinion on the subject, as if anyone asked for it.

[Corncob]

Perhaps a distinction that matters to me is whether an idea pops up on HF, and ends up being commercialized by several vendors, or whether an idea is introduced in a product by a vendor, and then is seemingly copied by someone else, without attribution. My gut feeling is that the first case is great, and the second case leaves me with a bit of unease, in which case if I was in the market, I would vote with my pocketbook and avoid the copy.

blather off.

Agreed, I think Grizz is spot on with the difference being there. With Paul releasing his product fairly recently, I was wondering what the timeline was with the WL product and where it started.

I'm glad Marty chimed in, and I think his decision to pull the product says a lot about him and our vendors in general. If it were me, I think I would have tried to make a case that I had a right to sell it, having started before anything about Paul's design may have been posted. Nevertheless, he opted to not step on any toes and maintain goodwill, at least in the short term, and I think that speaks volumes about his integrity.

[Dutch]

Good words Marty and where to draw the line is real hard. This is a discussion that needed to happen. Someday none of it will matter because more and more outdoor companies are taking notice to hammockers. Soon there will be Kelty Clips and Gregory hammocks.