Amsteel Daisy Chain

[Benny]

That would probably work.

After thinking about the continuous loop chain & playing around I realised it would take a LOT of Amsteel to make, not very efficient use of product.

So I came up with this idea- http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/s...178#post730178

[moto_dcf]

This all sounds basically just like the Exped suspension: here

[rockclimber]

I don't know if this idea has already been described above (and misunderstood by me, but would something like this work?

Amsteel Daisy Chain2.jpg

Sorry if the picture is not so good, but my artistic ability is not great. The basic idea is you would start with a locked brummel and bury a few inches (maybe 3) and have the tail exit the line again. You would then take the other side and go through the bury of the loop you just created and create a loop with the other line by burying into the line the first loops was created with. Continue until you have the desired amount of loops. By going through each bury you are fixing the loop so that it cannot slide to get smaller or bigger. (I'm sure there is a better way to word all that....)

My hope is the final product would look something like this:



Does this seem like something that could hold a decent amount of force. I know the strength of Amsteel is supposed to be reduced by something like 10% when you splice it, but the bends in this design are quite severe. The application that I was thinking this would be good for would not generate forces above 1300lbf, but most likely the forces would be about half that.

Any thoughts? I know this is impractical, but I was having fun splicing and was trying to think of a good way to achieve this type of result.

[VictoriaGuy]

This all sounds basically just like the Exped suspension: here

Has anybody posted details on the Exped 'buttonhole' line, and how to DIY it?
It does sound similar to what is being discussed here.

(When my Exped arrives, I'll give the suspension a close look... )

[rockclimber]

You could be right. I haven't been able to find any pictures that show the exped it well enough for me to be able to determine how it works or is made... Would love to hear what you discover when you get yours! Some pictures would be great too!

In the meantime, does anyone have any opinion on whether or not my method would achieve a daisy chain strong enough to take up to 1300lbf? I think that physically it would result in a daisy chain I'm just concerned with the strength reduction from the sharp bends, but couldn't think of a way to do it without the bends or having the loops be adjustable, which I do NOT want.

[VictoriaGuy]

Rockclimber:
No idea on strength of your concept - starting with stronger line would give you a bigger margin, I suppose.

Thoughts: Do you need the 'eyes' to be open when the line is loaded? The webbing example you show (climbing etriers) need the steps to be open so you can put your foot in (as you know).. For the hammock, once you are clipped in to the eye, I think the eyes can be allowed to close up ?? Would this (alternating ropes, symmetrical 'eyes') help to divide the load between the ropes?

I always saw/used etriers where the steps were on alternate sides, BTW.

I did a few experiments with cheap yellow poly hollow braid line(not hanging on it!) - it's easier to 'splice' (and visualize) than the skinny Amsteel stuff, for me. And I don't mind throwing poly in the trash, if necessary.

[XTrekker]

I mean its cool to try and think outside the box and come up with something new but honestly, why not just use UCRs? Its so much easier to construct than what you're working on and uses alot less cordage and it has unlimited possibilities of adjustment.

[Zigerot]

The question I would have is strength of spicing vs knots. I'm not sure what type of splice Benny is using and its % strength. This issue with knots and amsteel is that you need a 8:1 bend radius to retain original strength and a square knot comes no where close to that.

Obviously knots don't degrade amsteel to the point of failure for our applications, at least I haven't run into any talk about it yet. But I'm just thinking the margin of safety isn't anything close to what most people would assume it is. I haven't been able to find any rigorous testing data on this subject as the groups that tend to testing (climbers and such) just say don't tie knots. So, all I have to go on is anecdotal accounts of logger and such tying knots and having failure as low as 30% of rated strength.

Almost all knots will degrade your rating by 50 percent. Splicing will only degrade 20 percent. But WOW is splicing overkill in this situation. Amsteel is much stronger then we puny humans, even after we multiply the load Ina suspension. For daisy chains like,this I would go with alpine Butterflys

http://www.animatedknots.com/alpineb...matedknots.com

They are easy to tie and untie and they wont shift when you apply load.

[rockclimber]

@VictoriaGuy - You're idea looks really good! I can't think of any good reason why the eyes can't close, I was simply trying to replicate a sewn daisy chain, which is unnecessary. Do you know of a way to splice two colors together securely so that the eyes have a different color on one side making them more more easily identifiable? The only issue I'm still unsure of is how to terminate it in a way that would give me a loop at both ends...

I do think you are confusing etriers and daisy chains though. Etriers, as you correctly stated, are step ladders used in aid climbing. Daisy chains, while also used in aid climbing, are not step ladders. They can be used to hang body weight (usually have pocket strength of only 2-3kN), or as an upward pull anchor to give you adjustability with respect to length/distance from pro. I'm sure there are other uses for them, but those are the two I've seen most often in climbing. You definitely cannot put your foot into a loop of a daisy chain.

@xTrekker - I'd never heard of a UCR before. Certainly looks like a viable solution. I guess the only issue with this is it would only be good for clipping into one piece at a time, whereas having multiple eyes would allow me to clip more than one, giving me some redundancy. It's a great idea though and worth making one and playing with it. If it doesn't work for this application it certainly looks like it would come in handy at some point. Thanks!

@Zigerot - The reason I would not like to use alpine butterfly knots in this situation is mainly because my goal here is to end up with something that is light and relatively unobtrusive when hanging off my harness. Having a rope with a bunch of knots would add bulk and increase the likelihood of getting tangled with my other gear.

[VictoriaGuy]

I mean its cool to try and think outside the box and come up with something new but honestly, why not just use UCRs? Its so much easier to construct than what you're working on and uses alot less cordage and it has unlimited possibilities of adjustment.

I think one idea behind the Exped eyelet line is that the cordage is large enough/soft enough to use on the tree? Once you switch to tree straps, then there are a lot of possibilities, I agree. (And putting Amsteel on a tree is a no-no for me...)

Tree strap-marlinspike hitch-toggle -UCR -then ?? etc. Not the simplest, but once one gets accustomed to it, probably pretty quick??

Don't the whoopee folks say that UCRs slip?
And, in the cold and wet, I'd rather move a carabiner to another loop than mess with a constrictor....just a prejudice from jammed prussik knots 'back in the day'....

Lots of ways, obviously (I've just been reading around here at HF for a week... )

All for another thread...