Discussion: use of petroleum based permethrin (OVER water based)

[Macchina]

**A lot of this is theory based**

Been reading up on a lot of the permethrin threads here and elsewhere and noticed a trend: everyone is buying the water-based concentrates designed for lawn use over the petroleum-based concentrates designed to be used on cattle, horses- and dogs due to the petrol smell of the latter. Let me state some facts:

-Sawyer's spray is made for human use on clothing, it contains petroleum. The MSDS states it contains a "Proprietary mixture of SOLVENTS...". The second ingredient is listed as: "64742-95-6 Aromatic Petroleum Distillate, Xylene Range"
-Farming style permethrin concentrates are petroleum-based and designed to be used on fur and leather (very similar to our clothing, especially wool).
-Lawn style permethrin concentrates do not contain certain petroleum products because they pollute the soil and ground water. Certain petroleum products are banned from being used in consumer-grade lawn care products because they can contaminate ground water.

It would appear petroleum-based concentrates MAY work better for our purposes (sans the smell), and water-based concentrates are second rate. My reasoning says water is cheaper than solvents, so farm concentrates would use water-base if it was both cheaper and worked a well/better. There MUST be a reason petroleum-based concentrates are used in Sawyer and farm products. This reason may affect us and the effectiveness of the insecticides we use.

Discussion?

[toygun]

Adhesion perhaps? petroleum based products could cling to and stay on surfaces much better than water based. If the same insecticide is used in all then i don't see the effect being different on the insecticide side of it- just on the longevity of it staying put to do its job?

I'm also theorizing here... that those using the water based would just have to apply the insecticide more often but not potentially be affected by petroleum products on the skin?

Another issue arises though. Sawyer states this stuff is safe when dried but the skin has to absorb some of this on contact...specially if you are sweating while on the trail. So does the skin absorb a water based or petroleum based product faster.

[Macchina]

I've read on a lot of official documents that the Permethrin bonds to fabric fibers once dry, that is what it was designed to do and that is why we don't absorb it (don't ask me how it gets into the insect then).

Just to get people thinking: possibly the petroleum dissolves the permethrin and when the petroleum evaporates (no more smell) the permethrin has permeated the clothing fibers and is well bound. Also, if the smell is any indication then the petroleum-based concentrates take a lot longer to "dry" than water-based. Now I wonder if a water-based concentrate only has permethrin suspended in it (read the label to see if it says "Shake Well") and some of the product would then evaporate with the water. Let's have a scientist chime in here

The feel of this is there are negatives to petroleum-based concentrates (smell, health hazards, cost vs. water) so there MUST be positives above a water-based concentrate. This stuff is sold based on performance and cost, I am assuming petroleum cost more than water , so the question is: What benefits do the petroleum-based concentrates bring to the table that many of us may be missing out on by using water-based concentrates?

[BillyBob58]

So Sawyers has petroleum? I was thinking it didn't because seems like it has been low to zero on the smell test. But apparently it does.

So what about the bed bug killer stuff(Bonides?), isn't that supposed to be just mixed with water? I have not bought any of that yet. So we need a longevity test. Someone get on it! ( please! )

Sure have been a lot of Permethrin threads. Which is fine for me, as I want to know as much as possible about ant downsides of this seemingly wonderful stuff. Especially when used with wonderful 20% Picaridin) Did Y'all know there are no Mossies or ticks in the MS woods? Seems that way the last couple of years.

[Macchina]

Consider also perhaps a similar comparison:

Oil-based paint is much more durable. This is partially because the paint was once dissolved in petroleum so rain does not touch it. The way I understand it the solvent base evaporates from the paint and the paint is actually bound to the surface.

Water-based paint is not very durable. Clean-up is done with soap and water... sounds like a washing machine to me . Water-based paint has the paint SUSPENDED in the water. As the water evaporates the paint stays behind but only takes a soaking in water to re-suspend.

Maybe this is a horrible comparison, but maybe not...

[Macchina]

So Sawyers has petroleum? I was thinking it didn't because seems like it has been low to zero on the smell test. But apparently it does.

So what about the bed bug killer stuff(Bonides?), isn't that supposed to be just mixed with water? I have not bought any of that yet. So we need a longevity test. Someone get on it! ( please! )

On it's MSDS, Sawyer's ingredients lists "64742-95-6 Aromatic Petroleum Distillate, Xylene Range". It's listed as less than 1%, but the active ingredient is only 0.5%...

The 36.8% SFR Permethrin concentrate (petroleum-based) list 26% "Hydrocarbon Solvent" (fancy name for petroleum product, possibly the same as is in Sawyers). Now when diluted down to 0.5%, that makes for a petroleum content of 0.353% (it's possible the SFR has only a third the petroleum content of Sawyers).

[gmcttr]

...As the water evaporates the paint stays behind but only takes a soaking in water to re-suspend...

The paint manufacturers that make exterior latex paint and the 100's of thousands of property owners who's buildings are protected by water based paints may disagree.

[Macchina]

The paint manufacturers that make exterior latex paint and the 100's of thousands of property owners who's buildings are protected by water based paints may disagree.

Touche

[Marius Titulescu]

The paint manufacturers that make exterior latex paint and the 100's of thousands of property owners who's buildings are protected by water based paints may disagree.

Absolutely! It's in use for a reason.
____________________________
Marius from Ci Analytics

[iceman857]

I'm no chemist, so the perspective I have is based on utility and function. As a user of the product, it has to (a) kill bugs, (b) not damage my gear, and (c) not stink so much that I don't want to have it on my gear. In the research I've done, the only conclusion I've drawn is that there are formulations of permethrin that are geared toward usage on fabrics, and those meet my criteria. The other ones miss on stink factor. I've tried the stuff you spray on your cattle, the stuff you spray on your yard, and the fabric -specific one. The only two suppliers I've found, however, are Sawyer (too expensive IMO) and Duration (hard to find). There are likely other products I'm not aware of, but for me, I'll buy the Duration and soak EVERYTHING I CAN with it at the beginning of the year.

https://www.epa.gov/insect-repellent...eated-clothing