Hydrophobic down treatments

[Arothian]

Hello all

So I have been thinking about picking up a down TQ to use instead of my synthetic bag. I'm really looking for some weight and space savings by going to down.

What I am curious about though, is if anyone as experience with the Hydrophobic down treatments. These seem to have a variety names: Sierra Design's DriDown, LL. Bean DownTek, ect.

So far I've only seen Underground Quilts carry this type of treatment in the from of ResistDown(http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/s...ad.php?t=57575).

Do any of the other cottage makers offer a hydrophobic down treatment as a customization? If you have something that has been treated with one, do you find it worth it? I'm new to down in general, I don't own any down gear, so I'm a bit skeptical at a 'amazing' new treatment like these.

[fallkniven]

Paul only just started offering the resist down, so there may not be too many with much time in witrh them. As far as down goes, I too have only bought synthetic over the years, but once I got my first doiwn quilt, I saw what all the fuss is about. It's just so lightweight, and packs down so surprisingly small. When I got my first quilt, I looked at it and thought there's no way this is keeping me warm to it's suggested rating, sure enough, I was proved wrong, great stuff, you won't regret it. Paul made my first 3 quilts and they are amazing, now with resist down, I've got to work on ordering 3/4 more...

[Zolen]

I work in an outdoor retailer shop, so I get lots of newsletters, magazines, etc with all the latest news about products and such. I've read a lot about these down treatments, and I'm somewhat skeptical of their actual benefit. I've read a few reviews from testers that seem to indicate that even the new, treated down is pretty much worthless when wet. One that I remember was a guy that took Sierra Design's new down jacket for a 30 minute run in a "drizzle" and he reported it was soaked through. He did say it still gave some warmth, but was soaked enough that he could "wring out a sleeve". I think that was from Outdoor Magazine.

Basically, I think what I'm saying is that down will never be synthetic, and vice versa. To me, those down treatments seem like they will only be effective in those situations where you just get a little wet, like getting stuck 10 minutes from camp wearing your down jacket with no shell. In that case, little loft is lost, and it dries faster. But it sounds like the possibility of a total wet-out is not history, which is the real concern with down. If you wake up in the middle of the night with a soaked-through down TQ/UQ, you're still screwed. Sure, it might only take 24 hours to dry versus 72, but that still means another restless and cold night.

I guess any improvement in wet performance is welcome when it comes to down, but I still think the best option is to get good at keeping your gear dry. That means pack covers, good dry bags, good shells, and good tents/hammock tarps. Personally, I think the best solution to this problem will be a better synthetic. Hopefully, The North Face is on to something with their upcoming Thermoball insulation. It attacks the problem from the other side by trying to duplicate down with synthetic materials. If you routinely get your gear wet, go synthetic.

All of that being said, don't be afraid of down. There are two common myths out there about down that I try to eliminate at work. First, down is NOT ruined or even harmed by water, it just loses its insulation properties until it's dry, which can take days if thoroughly wet. Second, it does not take 6 raindrops to kill your quilt. It seems like people think that down will wilt at the first hint of water. It won't. A top quilt would likely take much more water than you'd think before it was useless. In the end, I say go for down. Whether you want to try the new, treated down or not is up to you. Just be meticulous about waterproofing, and you'll be fine.

[BillyBob58]

I work in an outdoor retailer shop, so I get lots of newsletters, magazines, etc with all the latest news about products and such. I've read a lot about these down treatments, and I'm somewhat skeptical of their actual benefit. I've read a few reviews from testers that seem to indicate that even the new, treated down is pretty much worthless when wet. One that I remember was a guy that took Sierra Design's new down jacket for a 30 minute run in a "drizzle" and he reported it was soaked through. He did say it still gave some warmth, but was soaked enough that he could "wring out a sleeve". I think that was from Outdoor Magazine.

Basically, I think what I'm saying is that down will never be synthetic, and vice versa. To me, those down treatments seem like they will only be effective in those situations where you just get a little wet, like getting stuck 10 minutes from camp wearing your down jacket with no shell. In that case, little loft is lost, and it dries faster. But it sounds like the possibility of a total wet-out is not history, which is the real concern with down. If you wake up in the middle of the night with a soaked-through down TQ/UQ, you're still screwed. Sure, it might only take 24 hours to dry versus 72, but that still means another restless and cold night.

I guess any improvement in wet performance is welcome when it comes to down, but I still think the best option is to get good at keeping your gear dry. That means pack covers, good dry bags, good shells, and good tents/hammock tarps. Personally, I think the best solution to this problem will be a better synthetic. Hopefully, The North Face is on to something with their upcoming Thermoball insulation. It attacks the problem from the other side by trying to duplicate down with synthetic materials. If you routinely get your gear wet, go synthetic.

All of that being said, don't be afraid of down. There are two common myths out there about down that I try to eliminate at work. First, down is NOT ruined or even harmed by water, it just loses its insulation properties until it's dry, which can take days if thoroughly wet. Second, it does not take 6 raindrops to kill your quilt. It seems like people think that down will wilt at the first hint of water. It won't. A top quilt would likely take much more water than you'd think before it was useless. In the end, I say go for down. Whether you want to try the new, treated down or not is up to you. Just be meticulous about waterproofing, and you'll be fine.

I agree with all you said. And I think that even with current technology, Climashield is a lot closer to down on the warmth to weight scale than many of us would believe. I am mainly basing that on my Warbonnet Yeti's ( EDIT: the no longer available original CS version) performance in the 40s, with only a 2.5 oz layer of CS in it. I just can not believe that 2.5 oz of down would be significantly warmer. Actually, it is hard for me to believe it would be even as warm. I mean, who makes a quilt with only 2.5 oz of down? Volume still goes to the down. And maybe warmth does also, but I think it is a lot closer than most folks think it is. But maybe I am wrong.

But my experiments with a purposely soaked CS jacket, wrung out and worn in a cold rain ( with a WPB shell ) is that it kept me reasonably warm and dried very quickly. By that I mean, it dried pretty much completely during a 1.6 mile hike in a cold drizzling rain.

At the same time, I have had 2 or 3 occasions where a lot of water got on my down UQs. Because of either splash up or a tarp stake pulling out of the ground during heavy rain/high winds, and I was not there to quickly correct the problem. To my amazement, I completely got away with it. What with modern DWR shells and today's dry bags, and being off the ground in a hammock, I really think the biggest threat to down- particularly on longer trips - is condensation inside the shell.

[bmwrider]

I work in an outdoor retailer shop, so I get lots of newsletters, magazines, etc with all the latest news about products and such. I've read a lot about these down treatments, and I'm somewhat skeptical of their actual benefit. I've read a few reviews from testers that seem to indicate that even the new, treated down is pretty much worthless when wet. One that I remember was a guy that took Sierra Design's new down jacket for a 30 minute run in a "drizzle" and he reported it was soaked through. He did say it still gave some warmth, but was soaked enough that he could "wring out a sleeve". I think that was from Outdoor Magazine.

Basically, I think what I'm saying is that down will never be synthetic, and vice versa. To me, those down treatments seem like they will only be effective in those situations where you just get a little wet, like getting stuck 10 minutes from camp wearing your down jacket with no shell. In that case, little loft is lost, and it dries faster. But it sounds like the possibility of a total wet-out is not history, which is the real concern with down. If you wake up in the middle of the night with a soaked-through down TQ/UQ, you're still screwed. Sure, it might only take 24 hours to dry versus 72, but that still means another restless and cold night.

I guess any improvement in wet performance is welcome when it comes to down, but I still think the best option is to get good at keeping your gear dry. That means pack covers, good dry bags, good shells, and good tents/hammock tarps. Personally, I think the best solution to this problem will be a better synthetic. Hopefully, The North Face is on to something with their upcoming Thermoball insulation. It attacks the problem from the other side by trying to duplicate down with synthetic materials. If you routinely get your gear wet, go synthetic.

All of that being said, don't be afraid of down. There are two common myths out there about down that I try to eliminate at work. First, down is NOT ruined or even harmed by water, it just loses its insulation properties until it's dry, which can take days if thoroughly wet. Second, it does not take 6 raindrops to kill your quilt. It seems like people think that down will wilt at the first hint of water. It won't. A top quilt would likely take much more water than you'd think before it was useless. In the end, I say go for down. Whether you want to try the new, treated down or not is up to you. Just be meticulous about waterproofing, and you'll be fine.

I to work for an outdoor retailer, most likely the same company different store, and that is exactly what I learned through job by both beign out there and the training I received, I think that if you are worried about getting cold in your bag while out in the field you should be concerened regardless of what your bag is filled with, a wet sleeping bag will draw warmth from your body no matter what its filled with, a wet synthetic should never be slept in in cool or cold weather, that bag will make your night dangerous by lowering your core temp. same as down.
If you want a bag that will keep you warm when its exposed to water get one with a water resistant/proof shell so the shell, insulation, draft tubes ect are not wet and will not draw heat from your body.
I have nothing but down bags and its been that way for years and none of them have ever been wet enough to be cold, even though it seems to rain for 75% of my trips.

[WV]

There have been some fine responses so far. I'm less concerned with getting soaked (it's my job to prevent that), but I can't regulate the humidity I generate myself as easily. I've read reports of down slowly losing its effectiveness in longer winter trips because it gradually absorbs more and more body moisture in a week or more of use. The new treated down may help with that. I'd like to hear reports from testers under those conditions, but it may be a while before we get enough to conclude anything.

[PineMartyn]

I've read a few reviews from testers that seem to indicate that even the new, treated down is pretty much worthless when wet. One that I remember was a guy that took Sierra Design's new down jacket for a 30 minute run in a "drizzle" and he reported it was soaked through.

I wanted to toss in my two cents about this, because the test described here is misleading. The point of hydrophobic down is not that it will retain it's insulative properties if soaked by a rain or a spilled water bottle or the like. No bag, be it down or synthetic, will retain it's loft and keep you warm when it's been soaked that way. Any bag that's wet through like that will have a matted, flattened fill where it's gotten wet and the water will conduct your heat where it touches the wet parts of the bag. Synthetics dry out faster, but while wet, they are all equally worthless. But unless you can build a big fire and dry your bag over it for hours, your synthetic bag won't dry out in cold-camping conditions by evaporation or hanging outside as it would in summer.

The relevant difference is in how well synthetic and down bags and hydrophobic down bags perform in cold-camping conditions on longer trips. When cold-camping (as opposed to hot-tenting), sleeping bags gradually lose their insulative properties because they absorb body moisture each night. Sleeping bags are made so that this body moisture will evaporate out through the bag, being forced out by your own body heat (like a heat pump) and by your movement in the bag (like a bellows). This is why you shouldn't put a waterproof material directly on your bag, as this will ensure the escaping moisture stays trapped in your bag, leaving it wet. But nightly moisture venting doesn't evaporate off all the moisture and, once you're out of the bag, that remaining moisture stays in there and it accumulates in your bag with every day that you're out cold-camping. Synthetic fills don't lose as much loft as down fills from this moisture because the fibres don't collapse and flatten as readily in response to accumulating moisture, so they will retain more of their insulative quality after many nights of cold camping. This is why many winter campers favour synthetic fills over regular down: The accumulated moisture has less effect on the insulation on long trips than it does in down bags. Down bags, when cold-camping, lose a bit more of their insulative properties with every passing night than do synthetic bags.

So, if you're hot-tenting, it won't matter, as your bags vent their nightly moisture load in the heat of the hot tent all day long. And if you're cold-camping for just a FEW nights, the moisture buildup won't be great enough to collapse enough of the fibres of the down to make any great difference. Where hydrophobic down is supposed to make a difference is if you're cold-camping for many days where body moisture accumulates in your bag, night after night, but never vents off or dries out during the day. Hydrophobic down behaves more like synthetic fill in this respect, and so on long cold-camping trips, it should retain more of it's insulative quality, as would a synthetic bag.

If you're cold-camper, but your not going on long trips where moisture accumulation will make a difference, hydrophobic down is a waste of money. On long cold-camping trips, it could mean the difference between sleeping warm every night or sleeping colder with every passing night.

Hope this helps,
-Martin (who is a virgin to hammock camping, but has spent many a night in igloos and quinzhees using down and synthetic bags)

[sr1355]

Here's an article that I just read from Backpacker Magazine: The science behind water repellent down gear.
http://www.backpacker.com/fall-winte...n=newsletter02

David

This is exactly what i have observed with RSD. From my understanding none of the down suppliers developed this technology. A seperate company developed it and has licensed it to the down companies as well as sell them the needed chemicals. So Resist Down, Dri Down, Down Tek, and all the other are using the same process, again, this is from my understanding of the technology and research into it.

Hope this helps,
-Martin (who is a virgin to hammock camping, but has spent many a night in igloos and quinzhees using down and synthetic bags)

Nice reply Martin, well said...

[Stone]

My personal experience with the Resist down used by Paul in the Underground Quilts (20* UQ) which has been two extremely wet trips is that down will still get wet if exposed to extreme conditions, you cant soak the stuff and expect it to retain loft, which equals insulation, it is down after all. However, the benefit lies really in the less extreme conditions (wind blown rain, heavy fog, etc.) it will reattain more loft, and keep you warmer than untreated down, and it will dry out much quicker. You should still take all the care that you would normally use with down to keep it dry, but you have a little more room for forgiveness. Which I think is the ultimate benefit. Just my two cents.

[adkphoto]

I can't disagree with anything that has been said.

I have been using down sleeping bags and jackets for well over twenty years. My twenty year-old down sleeping bags and jackets still loft well and are incredibly warm.

My synthetic sleeping bags and jackets have not fared nearly as well. In fact I recently returned a synthetic sleeping bag that lost its loft and exchanged it for a down sleeping bag under a manufacturer's lifetime guarantee.

I do most of my camping in the Adirondack Mountains of New York. Despite many days spent hiking and sleeping in rainy weather, I have never had a piece of down gear get soaked.

I just purchased a Resist Down quilt from Paul at Underground Quilts, but I have not had a chance to field test it (it's not cold enough yet!). The reason I purchased the Resist Down is to combat the effects of perspiration and humidity, which can affect loft and are more difficult to control. In my opinion, this is the ideal function of the hydrophobic down treatments.

If you take care in packing and storing your down gear, and take time to select a camp site, your gear will stay dry and functional for many years.

David


PS
Paul's quilts are top quality. I have three, and I wouldn't hesitate for second to buy another from him.