A pad or two (ccf blue and a GG thin pad) in an SPE and a synthetic TQ would be my advice down the road as you have already invested in down. I love my down but pads and SPE always work for me.
Oh, the choices ...... it is part of the challenge, eh?
Shug
Whooooo Buddy)))) All Secure in Sector Seven
Very interesting thread. So far ( to my surprise, actually) the DWR on my down products has quite adequately protected against inadvertent water and fog exposure, and loft has been maintained. But YB may have a point: I have not needed to pack the damp/wet shelled items the next day, I always am able to dry them out.
Do I understand correctly that a Weathershield is being used, but it is not keeping the fog from doing it's thing?
And about VBs: The last time I actually camped in fog plus continuously drizzling rain, I had no issues. But I did get the foot of my HH OCF pad and UC wet inside the first night when I did not use my VB space blanket. I used it every night after that, and no more trouble. So maybe a VB is a possible answer, or at least a help. But it would work better with a 100% waterproof outer shell, which should keep the fog out.
On that damp trip, I was heavy by a few pounds, as every thing was synthetic. HH SS, a PG mummy bag ( 3 lbs), and PG ( but still pretty darn light weight) clothing, the stuff I recently tested by pouring water into it. Worries about moisture were not an issue at all. Every thing of mine always seemed bone dry. I could have saved a couple of pounds by going all down, and could have saved a whole bunch of volume. But I still use a big pack, so no worries volume wise. One person had a down bag( Big Agnes), and he was making some noise about a damp bag and worrying a bit about loft, by the end of the week. Fortunately, by that time we were about ready to leave. But there were no opportunities for drying gear in the sun on that trip.
Down vs. synthetic, the eternal battle. Synthetic has the advantage if there is a likelihood of getting wet for any reason, down has the advantage in virtually every other area. Not the least of which is not loosing loft after just a few times use.
PS:
On my recent trip to the dryer Rockies ( the above was Olympics in WA state), I went with the down PeaPod supplemented with the PG clothing and a down vest. I had no issues with keeping things dry despite rain/snow/wind- no fog. (Though my friend once again voiced some concern about dampness in his bag on the last day of the trip).
However, I did have some added mental comfort knowing that at least part of my sleep system( my jacket and pants, hat and gloves) was synthetic, plus I had a "go to ground" backup short CCf pad. It is just such a scary PITA if I get things wet 15 or 20 miles and a couple of mountain passes from the car or nearest road.
tomsawyer222,
Good point on color.... That is why all JRB quilts are black on the inside....to facilitated field drying.
Pan
Ounces to Grams.
www.jacksrbetter.com ... Largest supplier of camping quilts and under quilts...Home of the Original Nest Under Quilt, and Bear Mountain Bridge Hammock. 800 595 0413
I tried the JRB Weathershield over the PeaPod, but the Peapod is much longer than the weathershield. I'm guessing that most of the dampness did come from me packing the down with elf green surface being somewhat damp.
I normally break camp and try to hit the trail before 9 in the Winter so that I can make some distance before dark. Normally, that precludes the fog or mist from leaving. Ergo, I wind up packing damp gear. With the damp gear packed, it becomes wet gear. My first night out never seems to be much of a problem, it the subsequent nights once the damp cycle has started that are the problem.
I might be able to make a hammock sock that will surround the peapod, but I'm guessing that I might just be shifting my condensation source from outside to inside with that approach. I might drop the peapod and use the JRB No Sniveller as an UQ with the weathershield on the underside of the UQ. Then I could use my Rag Mtn. with another weathershield as an OQ or use one of my synth bags.
I do have the BA Primaloft pad and an SPE, but darned if I can ever get my pads to line up the right way and stay put. Before I bought all of this neat down gear, I was able to sleep okay down to about 15 F using the BA pad with a CCF under it while using my MontBell synth bag and one of the heavier space blankets. I just kept waking up and resituating pads every 20 minutes or so.
With that being said, I know that trying to sleep on the ground after covering a nice distance with 40lbs of pack makes me have back spasms that are somewhat less than entertaining for me or my dog. I'll do whatever I need to stay above ground.
Is the problem condensation( Edit: of insensible perspiration from inside), or fog getting things wet from the outside?Originally Posted by wisenber
If the latter, would a full sock ( breathable, providing full coverage for the PeaPod) keep the fog off of the PeaPod? ( I don't know, just asking)
Have you discussed this problem with Ed Speer? He might be a voice of experience on this matter. But of course, so should the Jacks.
The more I think about it, the more I think it is indeed mainly a problem of having to pack up before things dry out, which can be a common problem. I think that even if fog fully wets the DWR shells of a PeaPod or JRB quilt, most of the moisture will not get in the down. I only say that because I have had the outer and inner shells of both my PeaPpod and JRB MWUQ get quite wet with rain( tarp malfunctions or running down the suspension) or fog or heavy frost. And so far, there has not been any significant loss of loft, to my amazement. Of course, this assumes an adequately functioning DWR- they do wear off or need refreshing occasionally. But, if I had put these wet shells under compression in a stuff sack and pack, my results might have been much less happy.
So then, if a sock can keep the fog ( or blowing snow/rain/mist) mostly off of thre pod/quilt shell, without causing condensation inside the sock, would that solve the problem? One thing I am fairly sure would solve the problem: a sil nylon sock used in conjunction with VB clothing, assuming exhaled moisture is somehow adequately vented. This combo would probably also boost warmth by 10*F or more, by a variety of reasons.
I am wondering about all of these things myself, sense I have been moving more to down pods and uqs and tqs, from a PG/ water paranoia approach. A tarp keeping the rain off is not the whole ball game, and fog seems to be a real bugger bear.
And I am remembering a couple of weeks ago when I left a down UQ under and a bag in the hammock, in what I guess was some form of freezing fog at about 27*F. When I went out to hop in the next AM, both sides of the tarp, outer shell of the UQ, TQ, and inside surface of the hammock not covered by the quilt, were covered with a heavy layer of frost( no body heat to help out)! That got me thinking about socks right there. I am also remembering those 10*F fogs we used to get in Salt Lake City. How can water hang in the air when it is 10*F?
Last edited by BillyBob58; 12-29-2008 at 23:00.
The more that I look back on it, the more I think my problem is packing and partly compressing the down gear when it is damp. The DWR probably can overcome a light surface moisture, but being packed wet will have the water penetrate the DWR. The source of the moisture is fog and mist. My 11X10 tarp does keep the rain off when I set it up steep and low. However, the fog only seems to get a good laugh at my efforts to stop it. The length of the JRB quilts should allow the Weathershield to cover them. ( I think I will still need a second WS for on top.) Probably all that I would need to do is shake off the WS and pack it separately. If the WS is really wet, I might resort to the ShamWow to dry it off .( You know those Germans really know how to make good stuff!)
I will email Ed to see if he has any advice on a Peapod solution. The only time I would see needing the Speer PeaPod and both JRB quilts would be a night around 0 F (5.5 inches loft on bottom combined and 4.5 inches loft on top combined) in which case, there should probably be no suspended moisture in the air.
I'm really not faulting my equipment at all. When I've camped in dryer situations all of the JRB and Speer equipment left me with a grin and no worries sleeping in 3 degree temps. My rat terrier- Chihuahua hiking buddy just jumped in with me and hibernated until morning as well. ( My husky could care less about trivial temps in the single digits.) The problems seem to occur in hyper wet air. Heck, my fingers even became "pruny" after a couple of days in temps where it was too cool to take off my liner gloves. My jacket stayed damp as well. In retrospect, I may need to look at my map a bit better. Apparently somewhere just north of Bob's Bald there is a wormhole that comes out near Seattle or so the weather would indicate.
BTW, I get what some of you have been saying on the VB side, I just don't think that's the issue in the mid 30's. If it were colder, I could see that as being the source. Again, please remember that I am bringing with me the wealth of wisdom and knowledge that only someone possessing my solid three months of experience can bring. Once I get another 15 days or so under my belt, I'll be happy to invite all of you to my book signing at which point I will provide any answers that might have escaped you.
I just had another thought ( I may need to pace myself as I might require another thought later this week.) Has anyone tried making a hammock sock from tyvek? I've heard all of the problems about noise and bulk; however, tyvek with velcro or omni tape might make an easy DIY cover for a PeaPod. With tyvek, I would add to my bulk quite a bit, but it seems like that might keep the fog and mist off of the outer edges while still breathing and providing a wind block. My initial thought was Event, but my wallet suggested that tyvek might e better. Any thoughts, or did someone already go down that rabbit hole?
I'd hazard a guess and say Momentum 90 would work nearly as well as Event in this application (low or no pressure involved). It still wouldn't be cheap but a lot less than Event and MUCH lighter.
You might not run into the same situation where you were caught in such high humidity and cool conditions for an extended period of time again. We are at the mercy of the weather when we are backpacking and we have to figure out how we can best deal with or at least survive what comes our way. These short backpacking trips of a few days often put us in a position where we have miles to make and we have to make them those days.
But sometimes we just have to alter our plans. Either bail out on the trip at the last moment because of the projected conditions or cut the trip short or spend another day on the trail. A few years ago when I was in much better hiking shape it wasn't uncommon to finish trips a day or a half day early. That gave some slop to deal with many issues that might come up that slowed us down. But that is much easier when you can hike high mileage days. And winter conditions when you don't have much day light to use doesn't help that situation either, especially when winter conditions are more likely to cause issues that might slow you down.
Last edited by Youngblood; 12-30-2008 at 07:59.
Youngblood AT2000
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