Drying out

[MacEntyre]

...I bet NTW was plenty warm!

You're right... early Sun morning, when it warmed up to 20 degF, he had to open up the peapod.

The ultra light vapor barrier sandwich of all insulation is the way to go in cold weather.

[BillyBob58]

You're right... early Sun morning, when it warmed up to 20 degF, he had to open up the peapod.

The ultra light vapor barrier sandwich of all insulation is the way to go in cold weather.

And Ed is a cold sleeper!

I've long been a fan of various VB approaches. And if you think about it, the HHSS is nothing more than a dual VB- or VB sandwich- approach. Since that has always worked great for me, I never saw any reason why it wouldn't work just as well if replacing the HH OCF with down and/or replacing the SSUC with a non-compressing version of sil-nylon UC.

Of course, I have to admit this approach ( with the SS) has not worked for every body, and some have had major condensation issues down in the UC for reasons I can't understand. And for every one, complete understanding of the system is required, or they will end up wet and cold. So, backyard testing is highly recommended! Exactly what Ed recommends with VBs anyway!

But I'm glad to hear Ed use the full VB UC approach, and that it worked like I always thought it would. (Actually, Ed's compatriot, YB/Dave, has also suggested such an approach with the Snugfit.)

It will be fascinating to hear what every one else used and how well it worked for them. I wish I had been there.

Another thing I want to know from ED- when you had to "open up", did you have the pod closed all the way? Or did you always keep at least a small breather hole?

[meant2b]

WOW! what a night. Talk about the unexpected. The forecast yesterday morning was saying -17 for the low. After reading one the response given on page 1 I thought why not take a piece of plastic, aka a thin plastic trash bag(the thinner the better, less weight) and wrap it around the opening on the sleeping bag. This way you would be protected on both the inside and outside of the opening from getting any moisture on the bag.

I did do one thing differently at my house recently which helped lead to the idea of...don't give it the chance in the first place and then it isn't a problem. Here in northern New England ice jams are a real problem for people with older houses like mine. Earlier this winter I was having real problems with ice jams until I realized the quickest way to avoid ice jams is to don't let them even think of forming in the first place. Ice jams come from snow falling on the roof. As it starts to melt it falls down the roofline until it gets into a colder location and refreezes, typically right around the edge of the roof. Then it just starts backing up...right back up underneath the shingles on the roof. Then it starts leaking down into the house. My idea, don't let the snow fall on the roof in the first place then the problem can't happen. I have a small cottage camp roughly 18 x 24. I bought a piece of tarp(20x30) and tossed it up on the roof holding it in place with nails off the edge of the roof. Now snow can't get on the roof to cause the problem in the first place. I can easily remove it come spring and put it back on next fall in a matter of 30-45 minutes each time. It should save a lot of problems and won't make for the leaky roof anymore. I did have some snow on the roof that wasn't melted off yet when I put the tarp up there so I still have to get rid of it first.

Hence why I'm thinking the same exact idea for eliminating the moisture problems everyone sees around the mouth of the sleeping bag. Don't let the moisture get on the mouth of the sleeping bag and then it can't be an issue anymore. My thought has been use something lightweight that the moisture can collect on but the moisture won't stick to, hence the plastic, totally waterproof. Come morning just shake the ice right off the plastic.

Before I headed out into the backyard I took a look and saw the temperature wasn't dropping as fast as it should have been. Around early afternoon clouds had started to build and by sunset I was under cloudy skies. The forecast was calling for clearing skies. I looked online and saw the temp was still above zero. The dew point was barely below zero, like -1 or -2 if I remember right. I knew then that the NWS office wasn't going to see -17 and sure enough the forecast had changed to a low of -7. I was doubting that as well. Pretty much any night over the past couple of weeks when it has gotten down to zero in Lebanon/Hanover area(500' elevation) it has stayed at least 5-10 degrees warmer where I live(1000' elevation). I look and noticed a rather strange dew point inversion already going on with the dew point being higher, the higher in elevation you went. I was figuring as a result I would only see 0-5 above for the overnight low in my backyard. YEAH RIGHT!

I headed outside and the skies had cleared back off and the temp was getting down there..already at 2 above. I tried out one new idea right off the bat. I decided to take the old heavy weight space blanket and toss is on the ground. Until last night I had been just laying everything down in the hammock and opening the sleeping bag, sit down on the hammock and swing my legs into place and then fight to get everything the way I wanted it as I zipped up the sleeping bag. I was letting a lot of cold air in the process and it would normally take me 10 minutes or more get everything the way I wanted it. I thought this should shorten the time up and at least make it so it won't let all that much cold air in as the worse case scenario.

The only problem with the idea is the fact the space blanket was on snow and on a small bit of a downhill drop. It kept wanting to slide out front underneath me. I managed, much quicker than normal to get into the sleeping bag and got the two pieces of the cut up sleeping pad into the sleeping bag as well without much fighting the cold for any kind of period of time. BIG PLUS!

I sit/laid down on top of the new sleeping pad and then went about more quickly than normal, get the two pieces of sleeping pad moved into position. They completely wrap around the top of my body, almost forming a secondary cocoon from the mouth of the bag clear down to my knees. They pretty much ensure I won't have contact with any part of the cold(topside) sleeping bag.

I grabbed the plastic bag of out my sweatsuit pocket and put it in place. I then grabbed the piece of fleece and tucked it up underneath my hat and dropped it down to about chin level. I pulled the drawstring up on the mummy bag to close up the opening. This is the one area I wish I could get to work better in my whole operation. The opening just doesn't seem to close up like the opening on my old Blue Kazoo did, with/without the sleeping pads inside the bag.

I fell asleep and never woke up for the first time until 3-3:30. I tossed for a few minutes and noticed some 'ice' falling down on me as I lifted the fleece cover from my face to try to reposition the mouth opening. I know if I want to keep the inside of the sleeping bag dry I can't breath in the sleeping bag. I fell back asleep again.

Unlike Saturday night, low of zero(-17 in Lebanon/Hanover) when I got cold shoulders I never had the cold shoulders last night at all. I didn't notice any trouble with cool/cold feet like I did briefly Saturday night when it was zero degrees. Rather strange.

I woke up around 5:15-5:30 again. I realized I had did a little breathing inside the sleeping bag area, err underneath the sleeping pad and after feeling up there and realizing the moisture had collected up there I didn't like the idea. Like I said up above, the sleeping bag doesn't seem to close up correctly like it should. It doesn't put the mouth/nose where they should be.

I realized I was about to have to go to the bathroom and I could tell I was going to have to dump the peanut butter jar in the process. I'm glad I have a 40 oz, unopened(for another day or so) jar of PB on the shelf. The 28 oz doesn't always take everything when I'm ready to go. I decided instead of going into the jar I would just get up and head indoors. I was very comfortable at the time. I got up and put on my shoes and started the walk inside. I was saying to myself the temperature had to be in the area of 0-5 above. It didn't feel any colder whatsoever.

I got inside and after going to the bathroom I took a look at the thermometer that hangs outside the kitchen window(right between where I was standing and where the hammock is). I looked...I looked again...I looked again. I couldn't believe what it was saying. I looked a few more times in total disbelief. The thermometer was showing -8. I about flipped. Gee the coldest night thus far and one of the most comfortable nights thus far. I still can't believe the feet weren't cold. I didn't have gloves on and the hands weren't cold either. The one strange thing...when I looked at Lebanon it was showing -6 and it was also showing 70% humidity. I know from listening that inside you want to add humidity during the winter months to make your house feel warmer. Is it exactly the opposite outside during the winter months. This is the only thing I can figure as to why I was so much more comfortable last night than Saturday night when it was 8 degrees warmer and maybe why I thought it was so much warmer as I walked into the house this morning as well. I admit I normally always think it is warmer than it really is.

Taking a quick look I did notice a small bit of moisture around the mouth opening, nothing like in the past. I think that was mostly due to the plastic bag not fitting quite as well as I would liked it to have fit. I do have another idea I'll try tonight and see how it works, that is if I can get the duct tape to stick to the cloth on the sleeping bag(that could interesting).

I just have to find the best way to mount the plastic to make sure it completely covers the opening. Potentially I may need to cover the head(top) part of the opening as well. It did almost seem like I had a small amount of moisture up on the top part of the sleeping bag this morning.

More experimenting to be done but not bad...-8 and that comfortable, unbelievable.

MEANT 2B
GAME '97

[BillyBob58]

Fantastic results, but I am confused about several things you did.

First: "I decided to take the old heavy weight space blanket and toss is on the ground.". Do you mean on the ground a foot or more beneath your hammock, rather than in contact with your body or the hammock? Why on the ground?

I may have missed it, but what hammock and (under) pads are you using? You are using pads, and not an under quilt, right?

Most of all, I can't quite picture what you are doing with the plastic(garbage?) bag. Are you just laying over the area of the bag that got wet? If you can keep it in place, I can see how that would keep the condensed breath moisture off of the bag. But, I am trying to figure out how you avoided getting a build up of condensation from insensible perspiration from your body on the underside of the plastic bag (the side in contact with the sleeping bag), getting your bag wet that way.

Unless the plastic covered the top of the bag, then was tucked into the bag in some fashion so that it was between your body and the bag? Functioning as a vapor barrier(VB) inside your bag and a waterproof shell outside.

Also, is this a down bag, or synthetic? Especially if a down bag, just the fact that you found a way to keep it dry could have accounted at least partly for a warmer sleep at colder temps.

Any way, good report and great results!

[meant2b]

Fantastic results, but I am confused about several things you did.

First: "I decided to take the old heavy weight space blanket and toss is on the ground.". Do you mean on the ground a foot or more beneath your hammock, rather than in contact with your body or the hammock? Why on the ground?

I'm using it only as a way of getting into the sleeping bag BEFORE getting into the hammock. Since I'm using a 'junk'(even though it is doing pretty **** good right now) sleeping bag(Wal-Mart(non supercenter) Ozark Trail Artic Mummy Bag, synthetic, rated at 0). It's cloth covered, not nylon covered like my old North Face Blue Kazoo is. Hence why I had always been getting into the hammock and than trying to weasel my way into the sleeping bag. It was taking so much time I wanted to speed up the process. I knew I wouldn't try to get into the sleeping bag first because of the snow on the ground. I figured by giving myself something on the ground to cover the snow I wouldn't have to worry about any snow getting on the sleeping bag while I got into it. It really did the trick to make getting into the sleeping bag/getting the sleeping bag zipped up much easier and quicker.

I may have missed it, but what hammock and (under) pads are you using? You are using pads, and not an under quilt, right?

Everything hammock wise is homemade. Just took a 15 foot long piece of ripstop and tied off both ends and I hang from that. I'm using the old egg crate(CCF, bought at Wal-Mart) sleeping pad I've had for years inside the sleeping bag to provide the extra insulation from the colder sleeping bag itself and I'm using a new egg crate, also bought at Wal-Mart underneath the sleeping bag inside the hammock. In both cases the egg crate faces outwards and not toward the body(if you can really still consider that egg crate, HA!)

Most of all, I can't quite picture what you are doing with the plastic(garbage?) bag. Are you just laying over the area of the bag that got wet? If you can keep it in place, I can see how that would keep the condensed breath moisture off of the bag. But, I am trying to figure out how you avoided getting a build up of condensation from insensible perspiration from your body on the underside of the plastic bag (the side in contact with the sleeping bag), getting your bag wet that way.

My setup right now that seems to be working far better than I could have ever hoped for has been to put on a pair of fleece socks with a pair of work thermal socks over top, both bought at a New England version of Big Lots called Ocean State Job Lots. That's all I have been doing with the feet. The lower and upper body are both handled identically..first I put on a pair of long johns followed by a sauna suit(sometime last night I put a rip in the suit, hopefully duct tape will hold it together for a while), on top of that I wear a sweatsuit. Nothing else fancy whatsoever. On the head I wear a hat and the fleece cover that I cut out rather quickly from a big piece of fleece I bought a decade ago(nothing more than a rectangular piece of fleece roughly 24 x 13 inches). I wrap it all the way around the head and tuck it up underneath the hat. My whole face gets covered by the fleece, nothing is left exposed. The hands are bare, I don't wear gloves. Inside the sleeping bag goes the two pieces of egg crate(CCF) padding. They totally surround the upper part of the body and fit underneath the back to provide a complete shell from my mouth clear down to my knees all the way around my body(figuring the sleeping pad underneath the sleeping bag provides the underneath part of the complete shell). I always keep the flat side of the egg crate facing the body and the egg crate side to the outside. The only other things I have present are the windup flashlight and PB jar inside the sleeping bag down around the hips. I'm not really using all that much considering how well it is keeping me warm. Granted the zero degree mummy bag is doing most of the work but I still wouldn't expect to stay as warm as what I was last night or have been on several other occasions with some piece of junk bought at Wal-Mart, LOL!!!

As for the plastic.

I took a plastic trash bag(.25, .13 mil thickness, roughly, the thinnest I have been able to find at Wal-Mart). The bottom of these particular bags won't let you open them all the way. For some reason it's like they seal the bottom shut all at once after they have folded the bag(probably for extra durability given the thinness of the material. I cut the bottom off so it would open all the way into a nice hoop. I took that and put it around the opening of the sleeping bag, making sure it wrapped between the sleeping bag and the sleeping pad. Basically just take a piece of plastic and cover the inside and outside right by the mouth/head area. Wrap it right around the sleeping bag.

Now I have to find the way to tape it onto the bag so the wind won't blow it off and it won't move around. That should take care of problem altogether I have a feeling.

I have started thinking about making an improvised, for the time being, snow tarp using chip clips. I'm going to try that idea tonight and see what happens. I have so many crazy things I would only do during the winter months it's incredible. I guess it's one of the benefits of living somewhere you can trust the weather at least part of the year to act the way you know it should. I wouldn't even consider using any of the gear I'm using right now for outdoor use during the summer other then the hammock. The rest of it would basically be suicidal. During the winter months or indoors during the summer months it works grand.

Actually the weirdest thing is most of the gear I'm using right now for subzero camping I use during the summer months as well inside. I lose a few layers but I always sleep in the hammock/sleeping bag year round. I've had several night right now inside around 60 degrees with the sweatsuit and sleeping bag and haven't had any trouble with overheating. The sleeping bag was new late last fall so I haven't had it for true summer use yet but even without air conditioning my house normally doesn't ever get much above 70 during the summer, maybe one or two days a summer it will hit 80 in the evenings. I have a feeling the setup I have right now, even though it is a zero degree bag, will work year round very nicely.

Any way, good report and great results!

Thanks, I'm still shocked by how well it's working and I can't wait for the first winter backpacking trip maybe as soon as this weekend. I have to see if my stove still works or not. I've never used a stove when I have hiked before. I ate cold the entire thru-hike(I have no sense of taste or smell so I can eat anything and do it day in day out without any problems). I know the stove is a must this time of the year and the whole idea of cooking while on the trail is going to be interesting to say the least. In a tent it seems like it would be much easier since your right at ground level and you could easily hop into the sleeping bag and cook supper from the sleeping bag. In a hammock that isn't quite so easy. I'm still trying to figure out my strategy for how to handle things. Talk about a different experience.

MEANT 2B
GAME '97

[BillyBob58]

OK, the SB on the ground makes perfect sense now! And it just dawned on me that the ccf pads completely surrounding you would act as a VB, preventing you from soaking your upper bag with condensation from the inside, allowing use of the garbage bag without trouble.

But are you only using one WM egg crate pad under you? That's not much for those temps! You must be getting a big boost from that fairly incompressible synthetic bag.

[meant2b]

The wild thing is I have never had any trouble at all staying warm where the pad is beneath me. Strangely enough I haven't had any trouble keeping from the knees down warm as well. On the flip side of that...

The reason I went and bought the new SP was to see if I could manage to increase the warmth around the arms as one night last week my whole body was fine other than the upper arms. The feet may have been a slight bit cold but that wasn't another 'outfit' for the feet that I wasn't using either of the last two nights. I could run my hand up and down my arms and feel the cold arms. I could also feel how cold the SB was against the arms and I knew I had to do prevent the arms from getting near the SB. In reading on Just Jeff's website I got the idea of cutting up the old SP. I initially tried iy on the floor in the house to see if I could stick the pad inside the sleeping bag underneath me and have it come up around the arms. The idea wasn't working worth a crap so I thought a little more and thought about taking the padding down under the arms. I knew this would prevent the cold sitting up above me from being able to get to me in the first place. Seeing how cold the sleeping bag has been, on the inside, with or without the SP I keep asking myself if I'm better off without the SB anywhere up top. Yeah, I know I'm being mentally insane but when I feel the SP its nice and warm. It's acting as a true heat block while the sleeping bag isn't. Can you see my crazy thinking. I'm not willing to try to go outside on probably even a 20 degree night and try sleeping under only a SP to find out how well it would or wouldn't work. I know I have heard they add around 10 degrees of warmth. At times I ask if it isn't a whole lot more than that.

MEANT 2B
GAME '97

[Youngblood]

I think how much a space blanket adds depends on other factors. It is a good reflector of radiant heat plus it is a vapor barrier. A good reflector of radiant heat cuts down on radiant heat transfer (loss in this case). A vapor barrier added to breathable insulation increases your efficiency at staying warm with the end result being you get more insulation per inch of insulation when used correctly.