Climashield and Synthetic Durability

**BillyBob58** · 07-24-2013, 17:31

One of the negatives of synthetic vs down has been the synthetics tendency to lose loft. Although it seems to be debatable if warmth is lost proportionately to loft loss( keep in mind the idea that down can be compressed by 1/2 before insulation loss is noticeable) still it can not be a good thing when loft is lost.

I have a PG Delta bag that lost a lot of loft. I have an even older PG 3D bag that has lost some loft, but doesn't seem to have lost near as much as the Delta.

I have several sections of ~ 1 sq.yd. CS XP and Combat that I got maybe 6 years ago now. My impression is they are still about as thick as they were back then. Even though, unlike the bags I mentioned, they look about the same to me as when new, I measured to make sure. But precision measuring of this stuff at home can be tricky, and I am not sure of what the results were when I first measured them years ago. I think the combat it was rated at .9" loft for a 3.7 oz/sq.yd. layer. While XP was rated at .6 for a 2.5 oz layer. I have one layer of XP plus 2 layers of combat in the quilt, which should be 2.4" plus the shell thickness. I measured ( so to speak) a bit over 2.5". I have a layer that is not installed in the quilt, ad that is measuring about .75" rather than the rated .9. Again, I can't remember if I measured a little below the rated .9 when new, or not.

But, this seems to be in the ballpark to me, either little to no loss of loft or maybe just a little more than that, = to "not much"

Admittedly, this quilt has not seen much stuffing, one trip of about a week and a few days here and there. But then again, my older PG bags have not seen much stuffing either, but their loss of loft is quite apparent.

So, what I am getting at: You folks ( and manufacturers) who have been using CS XP or Combat for a while, how is it holding up? Are things better than they used to be?

And what about the newest stuff, Apex? Is it maybe yet a further improvement for durability?

What are the actual differences in XP and Apex? When I look at a spec sheet for clo and loft, I don't see any difference, but there must be some difs?

**The_Hairy_Yak** · 07-24-2013, 19:48

I would be interested in the difference of Climashield and Apex as well. On the Arrow Head Equipment (Kick *** Quilts) website it gives you the option to upgrade to Apex with the benifit being 15-20% packed volume reduction and a 5-10° improvement at the same weight... But being an anti-consumerism minded individual I find it hard to trust the people selling me something.

**BillyBob58** · 07-24-2013, 20:59

Originally Posted by The_Hairy_Yak

I would be interested in the difference of Climashield and Apex as well. On the Arrow Head Equipment (Kick *** Quilts) website it gives you the option to upgrade to Apex with the benifit being 15-20% packed volume reduction and a 5-10° improvement at the same weight... But being an anti-consumerism minded individual I find it hard to trust the people selling me something.

Well, Paul at AHE is extremely trustworthy, but he probably gets that information from the CS manufacturers, and it would not be surprising if he had not been able to put those claims from the manufacturer to a scientific test.

Still, he has manufactured and used a bunch of quilts, both XP and Apex, and probably hears from a bunch of users, so he may have some good input as to both how durable the current insulations are- i.e. how long they maintain their loft- and if Apex is improved over XP durability wise.

But, I don't think Paul ever made any Polarguard Delta or 3D quilts, so he may not be able to compare those insulations to XP and Apex. Then again, he may have owned PG bags, so maybe he can compare his older bags with the newer insulations. Same with any users out there who I am hoping will comment.

Does anyone know if Apex has any coating that XP and Combat do not have?

**The_Hairy_Yak** · 07-29-2013, 15:18

Originally Posted by BillyBob58

Well, Paul at AHE is extremely trustworthy, but he probably gets that information from the CS manufacturers, and it would not be surprising if he had not been able to put those claims from the manufacturer to a scientific test.

Still, he has manufactured and used a bunch of quilts, both XP and Apex, and probably hears from a bunch of users, so he may have some good input as to both how durable the current insulations are- i.e. how long they maintain their loft- and if Apex is improved over XP durability wise.

But, I don't think Paul ever made any Polarguard Delta or 3D quilts, so he may not be able to compare those insulations to XP and Apex. Then again, he may have owned PG bags, so maybe he can compare his older bags with the newer insulations. Same with any users out there who I am hoping will comment.

Does anyone know if Apex has any coating that XP and Combat do not have?

Hey Eric,

We use HL Climashield standard in the KAQ line, with the APEX Upgrade being a very popular option. Our numbers come from our own in house testing more than the info that Climashield produces. Over the past 4 years we have produced approximately 3000 quilts. We do a lot of testing and also get a lot of feedback from our customers. We make every effort to give the best performance information about our products.
--
Thanks

Paul

**The_Hairy_Yak** · 07-29-2013, 15:21

Oh, I also just ordered a Apex Jarbidge.

**wiscoman** · 07-29-2013, 15:39

I made a set of quilts using apex. They have been stuffed many times in the 6 months(short time I know). I have not noticed any change in loft of warmth.

**nothermark** · 07-29-2013, 15:57

"I have a PG Delta bag that lost a lot of loft. I have an even older PG 3D bag that has lost some loft, but doesn't seem to have lost near as much as the Delta."
I'm curious - Have you washed the bag? I have heard in the past that the best thing to d with a bag is wash out the sizing used to keep things together during assembly as it acts as a glue to collapse the fiber layers.

**BillyBob58** · 07-29-2013, 18:33

Originally Posted by The_Hairy_Yak

Hey Eric,

We use HL Climashield standard in the KAQ line, with the APEX Upgrade being a very popular option. Our numbers come from our own in house testing more than the info that Climashield produces. Over the past 4 years we have produced approximately 3000 quilts. We do a lot of testing and also get a lot of feedback from our customers. We make every effort to give the best performance information about our products.
--
Thanks

Paul

Hey, Is this a post from Hairy Yak or from Paul at AHE? I guess the later as it is signed "Paul". Any way, Paul, thanks for that good info. and I'm happy to know that you are getting that much data from your testing and feedback from you thousands of customers! So apparently, based on your testig:
Apex is somewhat warmer and more compressible than XP for the weight, according to your personal research rather than according to the CS manufacturers, right? Have you noticed any durability differences between XP and Apex? I don't guess you can compare tp Polarguard, since you have always use CS, right?

Originally Posted by wiscoman

I made a set of quilts using apex. They have been stuffed many times in the 6 months(short time I know). I have not noticed any change in loft of warmth.

OK, that is some useful information! The time might be short, but with lots of stuffing it is enough time to see some difference with Polarguard.

Originally Posted by nothermark

"I have a PG Delta bag that lost a lot of loft. I have an even older PG 3D bag that has lost some loft, but doesn't seem to have lost near as much as the Delta."
I'm curious - Have you washed the bag? I have heard in the past that the best thing to d with a bag is wash out the sizing used to keep things together during assembly as it acts as a glue to collapse the fiber layers.

I have washed them, but not recently. I'm thinking last time I washed them the loft perked up a bit. I had not heard that about the "sizing"! But, the loft on my CS is holding up pretty well now and has not been washed yet. After all, all of my UQs don't normally get very dirty, as you don't sleep zipped up inside them like a sleeping bag on the ground.

**The_Hairy_Yak** · 07-30-2013, 00:21

Originally Posted by BillyBob58

Hey, Is this a post from Hairy Yak or from Paul at AHE? I guess the later as it is signed "Paul". Any way, Paul, thanks for that good info. and I'm happy to know that you are getting that much data from your testing and feedback from you thousands of customers! So apparently, based on your testig:
Apex is somewhat warmer and more compressible than XP for the weight, according to your personal research rather than according to the CS manufacturers, right? Have you noticed any durability differences between XP and Apex? I don't guess you can compare tp Polarguard, since you have always use CS, right?

OK, that is some useful information! The time might be short, but with lots of stuffing it is enough time to see some difference with Polarguard.

I have washed them, but not recently. I'm thinking last time I washed them the loft perked up a bit. I had not heard that about the "sizing"! But, the loft on my CS is holding up pretty well now and has not been washed yet. After all, all of my UQs don't normally get very dirty, as you don't sleep zipped up inside them like a sleeping bag on the ground.

The message was from an email I got back from him. I apologize for not clearing that up. They seem to be a stand up crowd

.