New to winter/snow hiking and camping

[MrPopper]

The way vapor barriers have been described, that seems logical, Owl, that they could trap water. I can see the pros and cons of it.

I would love love to learn how to navigate in the snow from a knowledgable person from around here but there are so few people, that i know of, who have spent time navigating trails in the snow around here that I think would be difficult to learn.

I would love to go on a hammock hang with some of yall. I've never been on a hang and would love to talk and learn from yall.

[BillyBob58]

I'm going to throw a contrary opinion in here...apologies up front if I offend!

I'm NOT a fan of vapor barriers.

That's contrary? I thought I was the contrary one by being, more and more, a VB fan. So there's me, and Fronkey, sometimes Dejoha. Any one else? Even if there are 10 of us out of the HF thousands, we remain way down in the minority. I'd say the vast majority are not fans of VBs.

As many have mentioned...there's some science behind their use, and most folks don't have the time or patience to learn that science.

And a misused vapor barrier can kill in extreme weather.

+1 that! Of course, a misused breathable system can kill in winter. You have to know what you are doing with whatever system you are using, most especially in winter. Hypothermia can take you right out. But, because the VBs take some radical changes in thinking, and it is quite unintuitive, I think that folks are MORE likely to have wrong ideas in their heads about how to make that work, and end up with getting insulation wet. So yes, extra caution and education is required for sure!

If you don't know the science behind the use...if you've not practiced using them in the conditions that you're going to camp in...then I would heartily recommend doing so BEFORE going out and relying on them. Same applies for all of your gear, but especially something like vapor barriers.

Exactly, and well said!

If you're not already an experienced backpacker/hiker/camper, I'd really recommend looking for courses in your area that would pertain to this. Land navigation is key...if you're not skilled in it now, don't rely on that skill when your life may literally depend on it. Practice, practice, practice...setting up/breaking camp. Building a fire for cooking and warmth...over and over and over.

Get good at these things now, when it's easy. Then go back and practice more and more under more and more adverse conditions, but still from the safety of your home or neighborhood where your life doesn't rely on these skills.

Go out with someone who IS skilled in winter camping for your first runs. Learn from them.

THEN see where you're at with your own skills and ease your way into winter camping on your own.

Very well said!

The way vapor barriers have been described, that seems logical, Owl, that they could trap water. I can see the pros and cons of it.

I'd go even further and put it another way. It's not that they COULD trap water. It's that they WILL trap water. That's the whole idea, as a vapor barrier, is to keep water in whatever form ( insensible vapor or even liquid sweat) from leaving the area of your skin and entering into your insulation, to stop evaporative cooling and keep insulation dry. Don't fool around with it until you know you understand it fully, and if after that you still want to. Read all of those threads I posted and more.

But if you remain interested, here is a wonderful idea for everything you are experimenting with, most especially VBs: test them in your back yard! Or at least next to or very close to your car and it's heater, for escape/bail out/ go home to the warm bed. Then if you screw up the VB experiment and end up getting your insulation wet and cold and you are shivering, then what's the big deal? You lose a few hours sleep, then go in the house and go to sleep. Lesson learned! Just don't do that 20 miles from your car!

But if you do your homework, there is no real reason to have an experience like that. In my case, just the opposite. I'll go ahead and give you this quicky tip, but you must still educate yourself further: The crucial concept for any VB, whether VB clothing, or a bag liner, or a space blanket over the HH pad in an HH Super Shelter or between you and your UQ or Pea Pod, is this: A cold VB is a bad VB, a warm one is most likely a good one. Think about it: when does condensation always occur? When body vapor hits a hot surface? Nope! How about when vapor hits any cool surface, like your cars windshield on a cold morning, or simply your breath leaving your nose and hitting zero degree air? Yep, it condenses into liquid, right?

In the same way, your bodies vapor traveling from your body through the layers of your insulation may finally hit a cold enough temp and condense or freeze before it ever gets out to the air. Just sleep out one or two nights in really cold temps and weigh your TQ or bag the next morning to find out how often this happens. However, here is a guarantee: surround that insulation with a VB on the outside in the cold, and any vapor traveling outward will hit that cold VB and condense and soak your insulation, and you will die on the spot from hypothermia. ( OK, slight exaggeration there, but the point is you won't like this). The VB assures that any condensation ( there won't be much of that on the warm VB) or sweat that occurs stays out of your insulation, and does not evaporate all night causing evaporative cooling.

Now if you overheat in breathable insulation, you will sweat and that sweat will be soaked up into your insulation like it is a sponge. Then you must warm it up to turn it back into vapor so it can hopefully leave your insulation. It will take body heat to do this. This is that evaporative cooling I keep mentioning, which is a good thing on a hot summer day.

If you overheat in a VB, you will also sweat, but the sweat is going nowhere until you take the VB off. Since I am warmer in a VB, I am more likely to sweat, so I have to be more aggressive about ventilation or adjusting layers. If I don't want to sweat. But if I am sweating, it's because I'm too warm. Sometimes in the winter, I have sat around the house for hours in a VB shirt, to experiment. Or outside on a cool day. I don't sweat. If I start feeling a little too warm or feel a trickle of sweat some where, I just unzip or remove a layer. Or take it off if there are no layers I can remove and still too hot when unzipping.

But enough of this, just read those threads and/or go to the Stephenson's Warmlite link if you are still interested. Or forget it and just go breathable like a normal person!

I would love love to learn how to navigate in the snow from a knowledgable person from around here but there are so few people, that i know of, who have spent time navigating trails in the snow around here that I think would be difficult to learn.

I would love to go on a hammock hang with some of yall. I've never been on a hang and would love to talk and learn from yall.

Well I've done plenty of it, but I'm way down here in MS and there is rarely snow anywhere close by anyway. Now if you want to drive down and just navigate through the local jungle, which like snow can really be hard to find your way through, no problem! I love off trail travel! As for just hanging, just keep your eyes open for the many group hangs, summer through winter!

[Owl]

The way vapor barriers have been described, that seems logical, Owl, that they could trap water. I can see the pros and cons of it.

I would love love to learn how to navigate in the snow from a knowledgable person from around here but there are so few people, that i know of, who have spent time navigating trails in the snow around here that I think would be difficult to learn.

I would love to go on a hammock hang with some of yall. I've never been on a hang and would love to talk and learn from yall.

I would suggest that you take some 'standard' land navigation courses if you've not already done so.

Learn how to navigate with a map and compass, using major terrain features and orientation. Learn to do it at night as well.

Get to the point where you're confidant in your skills...where you don't need a trail to find your way.

Get to that point, and that will go a long way towards helping you navigate in the snow when trails are hard to spot.

And there's nothing wrong with using a GPS as a back up/supplement to your navigation skills.

Consider going north for some winter hangs where you can meet up with folks with the skills you're looking to develop. It's a ton of fun, and it's amazing how much we all can learn from each other.

[MrPopper]

Thatd be cool got off trailing. I want to go up north, thatd be a lot of fun. I wanna go on a hang soon. I havent seen any near me. Not really close. Or least that I've noticed. Im trying to put a hang together at frozen head national park. I tried earlier this year but it didnt work out.