Hanging on the PCT

[Redwood Guy]

Planning for this trip has be scrutinizing every piece of gear looking for places to shave off weight. When I start adding up weights for a hammock body, tarp, under-quilt, top-quilt, suspension, etc, it seems like it weighs more than many ultralight tents. I know comfort is the primary motivation for hanging, but on a thru hike, you can't ignore weight issues.
Anyone have an idea what an "ultra light" hammock system would weigh? (including tarp, suspension, any accessories, and the insulation, top and bottom)

Hello,

I think many hammock people make the same mistake I did at first. I added up my entire hammock setup and than looked at how much it weighed verses my tent and went "uggggh" when the numbers were so far off.

Than I realized I was being an idiot and forgot to add in the (1) tent ground cloth, (2) sleeping pad, and (3) sleeping bag/quilt.

Than I realized it was unfair to compare them.

A hammock setup has:

(1) Hammock + suspension
(2) Tarp + suspension
(3) Bug/net (or built-into hammock, but still weight on the scale)
(4) Top quilt
(5) Bottom quilt

If you go with a WB Traveler, Bug Net, and Big Mamajamba you are looking at 38.0 oz (2.37 lb) [1,077.28 grams]. (you can go a bit lighter with a much more expensive CF tarp from Zpacks.Com)

Compare that to a TarpTent Moment at 28.5 oz (1.78 lb) [807.96 grams] or the ZPacks Hexamid Solo at 8.2 oz (0.51 lbs) [232 grams] plus a Therm-a-Rest Z Lite Mattress at 10 oz (0.62 lbs) [283.49 grams] and it is hard to understand why you would choose a hammock if you are wanting to save weight.

If you are to be fair and compare your sleeping bag (lets face it, almost everybody these days on the PCT is using the 'MontBell Super Spiral Down Hugger' which is a 15-f bag, so we have to compare that to a ~15 underquilt/topquilt for a hammock - if we are to be fair) to a TQ/UQ of comparative temps, you'd probably go with the HG Winter setup, which together tip the scales at 55.0 oz (3.43 lb) [1,559.22 grams]. The MB SSDH tips the scales at 38.4 oz (2.4 lbs) [1,088.62 grams].

So, comparatively sleeping on the ground verses sleeping in a hammock (in the perspective of keeping warm) is a savings of ~16 oz (one pound!!) - again, this is if you select equivalent sleeping temps, for the coldest parts of the PCT (SoCal, Sierras).


Anyway, I've spent the last few months doing the math and trying to decide. In the end, I guess it comes down to desire. Do I want the easy of a tent setup? Do I want the comfort of a hammock? Do I want the weight savings for cold weather areas that a tent offers? Do I want to spend a lot of money or a whole lot of money? Is my existing base pack weight at a point where 2 pounds is going to be more than I want to carry, or am I willing to take on an extra pound or two for 2500+ miles?

Remember also that you have options. You really do not need an underquilt and a topquilt.... even for the hellishly cold SoCal and Sierras! The other option is to sell them and buy better cloths. Head over to Nunatak and find a jacket and pants that works for you, and do what we are suppose to do as thru-hikers... never carry something that only has a single use purpose! Why do we allow ourselves to lug around our heaviest gear in our pack that has a single purpose? Multi-purpose your gear... including your sleeping gear. Buy a jacket that can be used around camp in the morning and night AND in your hammock or tent. Forget that TQ/UQ or the sleeping bag. Buy warmer garments and multi-purpose them! You are saving a huge amount of weight and not lugging around a single-purpose item. The only things in your pack that should be single-purpose are your personal hygiene supplies (and even they can be used for multi-purpose such as starting a fire if you 100% must - which is usually regarded as a no-no on the PCT.). Your clothing is all layered-clothing so you take on/off as you need. Utilize them and rid yourself of as much single-use-items as you possibly can!


I have three spreadsheets made up at this point. One for my hammock setup, one for my tent setup, and one for my prototype/hybrid setup which is all custom made gear, garments and not quilts, and the lightest options of them all that I feel will keep me comfortable.

[hikelite]

Thanks for the thorough response Redwood Guy.

I'm not really debating whether or not to take a hammock. I'm bringing one, I'm just trying to determine what kind of goal I can set for weight. I'm not an ultra lighter, but a trip of this scale has me counting at grams.

My old/current shelter system is a 1.9 oz ripstop hammock body, with the Ed Speer knotted ends, and a ~1.4oz Silnylon tarp. I actually have made a few tarps of varying dimensions, but I find I prefer the larger ones. I know I will be able to improve the weight of the hammock body a little bit by using 1.1 oz ripstop and improving my whipping. I built a gathered end hammock of 1.1 last night, and it worked well. I pulled the center a bit along with the ends. I really like the way it feels, but I want to experiment further. I'm not sold on the gathered end style. I think I will try the method Jacks R Better describes on his site tonight. First because I think it will leave less fabric wadded up at the end, so it will have a larger sleeping area for the same amount of fabric. Second because it will let me experiment with different amounts of center and edge pull. When I made my Speer style, knotted hammock, I know I retied that first one dozens of times to get the sides just right. I made several for friends using the same design, but after years of use, I've decided the sides are too tight. I really liked the difference pulling the center made too. It makes laying at an angle much easier, but the one I made last night isn't quite perfect. It's close, and I could comfortably spend the night in it, but I want to play with it more. The one I made last night is a little small too. I used up some fabric I had already been testing with, so it was a couple feet shorter than I want I think. I know I won't save a ton of weight on the hammock body, but I will save some.

I'm not sure how much I will be able to shave off the tarp without moving up to Cuben fiber. I have more silnylon though, so I'm going to go ahead and make another tarp, this time using a catenary cut design. That should lighten it up a little since I'll be removing material, but again, I don't expect a huge weight reduction. My only complaint with my old tarp is sag. It's a plain rectangular tarp. While it does pitch very tight, most mornings, it has stretched some. I'm hoping the cat cut will help. Unfortunately I know about Cuben fiber. Not only does it not stretch or sag, it's 50% lighter! Since I can't get any until next month though, I'm going to go ahead and make another silnylon tarp taking advantage of my improved sewing skills and designs.

I am updating the materials used in the suspension also, so I may save some weight there. I've been using this rather thick spectra cord to rig the hammock. This is climbing grade cord that I know is way stronger than I need. I have some Amsteel Blue 7/64 on the way though. I'm going to make a single line suspension using 2 descender rings and whoopie slings. I'll post pics once it's all built.

I'm also going to try my hand at making a top quilt for the PCT. I've never worked with down, so there will be a lot of learning involved with this part :P I'm not sure yet if I will make an under quilt. I just bought a NeoAir pad. I already hammock with a thermarest, so I am familiar with the pros and cons. I want the flexibility to sleep on the ground for whatever reason. What I think I will do is just carry 2 smallish pieces of CCF for my shoulders. These can be used to sit on while hiking and to kneel on when packing up in the mornings. I'm not sure I'll need an under quilt with this setup.

So anyway, that's my current plan. I still have a lot of gear to make, but I have 4+ months. I'll share pics as I make progress. It won't be the lightest setup, but I bet it will get close to the weight of a lightweight tent setup.

[Redwood Guy]

That's great to hear hikelite!!

At this point I have fully ditched (ok, myabe 95%, there is still a chance) taking a hammock. From a numbers perspective it just does not make sense, plus many other factors such as the many many many going-to-ground (GtG) issues, and as Steel-Eye said on the pct-l list this morning, "Another consideration when deciding to hammock or not to hammock is social.
Those who believe they may prefer to hike/camp with a group -- large or
small -- may have difficulty finding a hang-up when the group plops down and
says, “This is it for the day.”" I think most will agree that the 'community' of the PCT is strong, and if you do form those bonds, will this result in you having to change how you sleep and the related gear you carry?

All that said...

There are folks out there working very hard on building CF gear for hammock users. This includes seriously UL CF tarps and even CF hammocks. I have been testing two different cf hammocks over the last month and depending on the material, you can get either a really nice lay or a really ruff one. By going over to CF I have been able to *almost* get my Sleeping System down to a comparative ground system.

That said, it is going to be very very hard to get a cf hammock setup that will match the performance/weight ratio of my HMG Echo 1.

Do not forget in all of your custom building to factor in a bug-net. You 100% do not want to sleep on the PCT without a bug-net.


I totally know and understand the PCT can be done with a hammock setup that is designed to have the GtG capability. I would be wiling to give it a shot, but not my first time through. To many other factors involved in a first major thru-hike for me to have to worry about tree selection every single day for 150 odd days straight. Maybe if I had more experience with the PCT I would give it a go without thought, but not my first time.

Would love to see how you work things out on your end!

[KerMegan]

I think the justification of 7 oz for a nano as backup could be easily rationalized-(it is less weight than 1 cup of water...),with a head bugnet? and just multi-use a couple of amsteel whoopies on your tarp, and you are golden...
KM (who is just thinking out loud, much to the misfortune of those around her..) not that I am planning to do the PCT in this lifetime, but logistics are always interesting.

[wisenber]

This does not directly correlate to the thread, but the term "comfort" is being used as the only reason to use a hammock. To me the "comfort" of a hammock is not much of a luxury. That comfort creates a better quality of sleep. When I get better quality sleep, I need less of it. The comfort of a hammock also allows me to rejuvenate better than on a pad on the ground. If I am getting better quality sleep and more recovery during that sleep, using a hammock can make one more efficient.

For me, not dealing with a stiff back from sleeping on the ground or reducing the swelling in my feet by elevating one end means I can hike more hours and miles per day. The lack of quality sleep and recovery is cumulative....meaning more zero days.

So the question of weight is an incomplete question. Does a piece of gum weigh less than an apple? Yes. Does a piece of gum offer as many nutrients as an apple?.... Not so much.

The value of the weight is also relative. How much would a piece of warm apple pie with ice cream be worth in between resupplies versus at the end of a work week? Now ask yourself if you would have been willing to carry the weight of a cup of water each day in exchange for a more restorative night's sleep.

If using a hammock is just about grams to you, you may very well be missing the bigger picture. Asking how much weight is a restorative night's sleep worth is an abstract question without fixed values to plug into an equation and quantify.

[hikelite]

Redwood Guy, I was going to make the same point as wisenber.

I'm not trying to make my hammock based sleep/shelter system as light as a strictly ground based system. Obviously the additional materials for the hammock body and suspension will make it weight more. I'm just looking for a target to aim for in terms of weight. My requirements for the shelter system are a comfortable hammock (ie large), the option to sleep on the ground when needed or desired, a large coverage tarp to wait out storms, and as light as possible given the previous requirements.

I already know my shelter will weigh more than many ultra light folks. This hike has got me counting grams, but I'm also not willing to forgo functionality just to shave off a small amount of weight. For example, I like big tarps. I could make them lighter if I went with a more minimalist coverage, but I'd rather use better materials to get the same functionality with lighter weight.

I'll be placing an order for some CF this week, so we'll see how light I can get the tarp!

I'm still debating how I want to solve the bug issue. I don't want to be forced into my hammock to escape them, but I'm not sure I'll be happy enough just using my bug net hat. I'm still leaning towards some netting walls, but I'm not sure yet how I will attach them to a CF tarp. I have an idea that should work though. Just need to get all the materials here to try it

[wisenber]

Hikelite, treating your hammock and a set of clothing with permethrin will quell most of your bug issues. That will just leave your head and hands to worry about. I've been in a treated hammock and watched flying critters hoover then leave. The same is true for my sets of clothing that I have treated. If you have a really dense black fly time, you'll still need some form of net (I treat my net also.) I just use a piece of 108"X60" noseeum netting with three small pockets on each side. The pockets are for ballast to hold the net down. I think it weighs in somewhere South of 6 ounces without the ballast. It also serves as a bit of extra insulation as the noseeum netting does reduce airflow. It an also be used as a drying bag to put wet clothing on the outside of your pack to air dry. Once/if you find there is no further need for it, mail it back.

[hikelite]

I have a bug net like you describe. I've used it in the Sierras in July. It was too hot.

I'm trying to avoid being driven into the hammock. I made a tarp with little pieces of velcro sewn all around the perimeter. I then made some netting walls that attached to the tarp. I didn't use high quality netting (think netting from JoAnn's), so it's a bit bulky and a little heavier than I like. I don't want to sew the velcro to the CF tarp, but I think I came up with an even better solution! I have some "real" noseeum netting already, but I may not have enough on hand. I want to get the CF and build the tarp first.

I have used the permethrin treatment on my clothing. It works well! I haven't done a treatment for a couple years though. I have been just spraying the deet onto my hiking shirt and a bandana I wear around my neck. I still have to smell the Deet, but at least I minimize the amount on my skin. Since I'm not sure what areas I'll hit mossies though, it would be hard to retreat along the trail. I know Yosemite will be bad, but the rest of the trail may or may not be. I'll probably just maintain a supply of Deet in my pack and use as needed. I just hate eating lunch with a bug net on my head. If you've never tried it, a tarp with screen walls is wonderful when the air is black with the evilness. :P

[wisenber]

I have a bug net like you describe. I've used it in the Sierras in July. It was too hot.

I'm trying to avoid being driven into the hammock. I made a tarp with little pieces of velcro sewn all around the perimeter. I then made some netting walls that attached to the tarp. I didn't use high quality netting (think netting from JoAnn's), so it's a bit bulky and a little heavier than I like. I don't want to sew the velcro to the CF tarp, but I think I came up with an even better solution! I have some "real" noseeum netting already, but I may not have enough on hand. I want to get the CF and build the tarp first.

I have used the permethrin treatment on my clothing. It works well! I haven't done a treatment for a couple years though. I have been just spraying the deet onto my hiking shirt and a bandana I wear around my neck. I still have to smell the Deet, but at least I minimize the amount on my skin. Since I'm not sure what areas I'll hit mossies though, it would be hard to retreat along the trail. I know Yosemite will be bad, but the rest of the trail may or may not be. I'll probably just maintain a supply of Deet in my pack and use as needed. I just hate eating lunch with a bug net on my head. If you've never tried it, a tarp with screen walls is wonderful when the air is black with the evilness. :P

Best to avoid DEET on synthetics as it can break the fiber down pretty quickly. That's where permethrin comes in. If you get the Sawyers Permethrin, the treatments last up to 6 weeks even with laundering. The cheaper stuff is only good for a couple of weeks.

If you want to avoid eating with the bugnet over your head, I've had good luck with a Tilley Hat with Insect Shield. It's a pretty good hat, and after the first year, just retreat with permethrin every couple of months. I've seen yellow jackets approach me then veer off once within range of the permethrin. I prefer to treat my clothes over treating my skin. If I want to wear shorts or short sleeves (or visit a pervasive tick population), I'll augment with DEET.

[Caribou Bentspoke]

I don't see a big weight gain, looking over my gear from ground to hammock. My BB1.1 and Edge tarp compress slightly smaller than my Contrail tent, the Hammock and tarp weigh 9 ounces more than the Contrail. Swap the Edge for the Micro, and add the tyvek ground cloth to the Contrail, and the gap is just about gone. Plus in the hammock I don't need a pillow case to hold clothes.
So if the UQ is really where the difference is, then I can debunk that too,...a 13 ounce down UQ is lighter and packs smaller than any pad I would use on the ground.
I can see how how needing to pack for two different scenarios would add weight, but hammock camping only should add little in my noob mind.
On motorcycle trips using a tent I use a 4# 25""X72" sleeping pad that takes up more room than a Hammock,Tarp, UQ, sleeping bag combined. Glad I will not need to do that anymore.