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  1. #11
    Member CoyoteWanderer's Avatar
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    ach. my week-end ran away with me. Sorry to not get back to you helpful folks sooner.

    Quote Originally Posted by angrysparrow View Post
    I'm sure that's true. It's hard to tell how much reading/research that a new member has done before asking questions, though. Thanks for reading and educating yourself before posting!
    Quote Originally Posted by FishinFinn View Post
    Must be an engineer, or a math guy.
    No Problem. Goes along with being technically minded. Took Engineering Physics in uni but didn't complete, life got in the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by angrysparrow View Post
    By breathable insulation, I meant insulation that doesn't act as a vapor barrier, and thus allows moisture to pass through.

    The 'most moisture is carried from your breath' part is the key. Most but not all. I do understand now that you were thinking only of breath as a vector for condensation, but I wasn't in my reply.

    I probably should not have complicated my answer with uncertainty, but there has been significant discussion on this forum about using vapor barriers as a part of the insulation scheme. And since you seem willing to read and learn, here is a good thread to look at in relation to it.
    Wow, fantastic thread. The only problem is figuring out the dew point for a variety of temperatures/humidities given a half dozen different materials and determine where to put the vapor barrier or how to alter your insulation. What a headache. However, it does give me a good take-a-way. All hammocks should be breathable material on the bottom to allow transfer of warm moisture laden air out. I am surprised that they haven't been made of gortex (or have they?). How does this compare with manufacturers claims that they are waterproof on the bottom for bivy style use in the absence of trees.


    Quote Originally Posted by angrysparrow View Post
    I would combine a pad with the Clark pockets, or just use a quilt instead. The pockets would be fine for supplementing a pad, or for using alone stuffed with things only in summertime temps. The problem is that there is a gap between the pockets along the center of the hammock, and that creates an uncomfortable cold spot.
    If the pockets on the Clark leave a cold spot along the axis attachment why has Clark not addressed this? Has anybody spoken to Clark?

    Quote Originally Posted by angrysparrow View Post
    One of the members here went to the trouble to have individual down pillows made to fit into each pocket, but was only semi-successful because of the gap.
    yeah, I saw this thread. The 'pillows' were very cool. I would rather have a usage more like the Clark's sale pitch where you store your gear and let the air pocket insulate you. Which doesn't sound like it works much. If you have to carry extra bits, an underquilt makes more sense.


    Quote Originally Posted by angrysparrow View Post
    I didn't mean for that to sound patronizing, if it did.
    Nope, no offense noted, that was a serious answer. I saw the blackbird mentioned enough by enough people that have significant posting histories and obvious expertise that I had to add it to my investigation.

    Quote Originally Posted by angrysparrow View Post
    There are so many underquilt options now, in so many thicknesses and styles, that it's hard to answer your question about quilts, and that's before we even get to all the pad options.

    I suggest you take a close look at the quilt comparison chart at JRB. Then look at Speer's site, then at KickAssQuilts, and then have a look at the WB Yeti. Next, here is a good discussion of the HH SS.
    ok, that is a lot of options. I have to agree with all the posters stating 'pads suck'. I used my thermarest with my peak at camp and I have tried it at home as well. I can make it work, but it isn't very good. And that includes that I have a sleeping bag that straps to the pad. (Sierra Designs "Rip-van-winkle - love this bag, but don't see it on their website anymore).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramblinrev View Post
    I have the HH Super Shelter whihc I like very much. But for serious cold weather (single digits and below) I would probably have a closed cell foam pad handy just in case.
    So, a couple of questions.

    1. Does the blackbird have a 'pad pocket' ? I have heard this mentioned but didn't see it on the list of features on the website. Now, jumping to random conclusions here, I assume that the pad pocket, if it does have one, works to maintain a pad underneath the torso area.

    wait - is this the difference between the single layer and double layer choices on the Warbonnet website?

    Is a weathershield an additional layer around the bottom of the hammock, or is the double layer the weathershield? Been reading too much and too long, starting to get it confused...

    2. Rablinrev, is single digits Fahrenheight or Celsius? I assume you mean Fahrenheight, so that means that you like the supershelter with your hennessey and ccf pad down to almost -18C. I assume that is with an appropriate bag and clothing.

    3. How does the pad in the supershelter stay put under the torso - it looked like it would move around quite a bit as there was a lot more space than pad
    Do you substitute a different pad?

    Quote Originally Posted by FishinFinn View Post
    The Clark weathershield is very effective. Shoulder squeeze in a Clark? It is a narrower hammock, but I am about the same size as you and I have no issues with the NA, size-wise. The pockets are good for organizing, but as far as effective insulation, say 60*......, ehh.
    <snip>
    The two best features on the Clark are the zippers (both sides and smooth as butter) and the built-in weathershield. I have never had condensation with the weathershield, but I've only been down to the teens with my Clark, and I always leave it cracked open on top for venting.
    That's about what I was looking for as answers go. I am disappointed that the Clark pockets don't hold up to the sales billing but happier to know now than after purchasing one. So, my typical temp would be somewhere between 40 to a ways under freezing, say, 20'ish (F). And you would use an underquilt with your Clark (and your BB) for all of those temperatures?

    Quote Originally Posted by FishinFinn View Post
    BB is a comfortable, roomy hammock, and allows flatter back sleeping than the Clark. I always end up on my side in the Clark - it is the weirdest thing. It is the only hammock I have that I end up on my side, every time I sleep in it. I think someone else, maybe Cannibal, had that issue as well. Anyway, the shelf is a great storage place, and there is no roomier single person hammock available that I am aware of. Making a topcover is easy for the BB. Brandon will make one, and I posted directions for my version.
    Which hammock do you find more comfortable, the BB or the Clark.
    You mentioned not being a convert to the HH, why is that? What didn't you like about them?

    Your topcover is a neat idea, how well does it stay in place getting in and out of the hammock?

    Hey, I notice your BB is camo - is that the same material as the standard BB or is that a cover you put on it?

    Is there a weathershield for the BB - something equivalent to the undercover for the Hennessey SS system?

    Is there any advantage to the Clark style tarp over the hex tarps?


    Quote Originally Posted by angrysparrow View Post
    Video Directory? Good stuff...
    Thanks for the link.

    Thank you all for your input and advice.


    CoyoteWanderer

  2. #12
    Senior Member fin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoyoteWanderer View Post
    So, a couple of questions.
    Holy Inquisition, CW! These aren't questions, they are the essence of just about every thread synopsized to a well placed skean of your own crafting! Well quested!

    Quote Originally Posted by CoyoteWanderer View Post
    1. Does the blackbird have a 'pad pocket' ? I have heard this mentioned but didn't see it on the list of features on the website. Now, jumping to random conclusions here, I assume that the pad pocket, if it does have one, works to maintain a pad underneath the torso area.

    wait - is this the difference between the single layer and double layer choices on the Warbonnet website?
    Yes, the dual layer provides the pad pocket.


    Quote Originally Posted by CoyoteWanderer View Post
    Is a weathershield an additional layer around the bottom of the hammock, or is the double layer the weathershield? Been reading too much and too long, starting to get it confused...
    The weathershield is a zippered layer of fabric that runs concurrent with the bug net, allowing you to close off the hammock from the environment and retain extra heat in the process.

    Quote Originally Posted by CoyoteWanderer View Post
    That's about what I was looking for as answers go. I am disappointed that the Clark pockets don't hold up to the sales billing but happier to know now than after purchasing one. So, my typical temp would be somewhere between 40 to a ways under freezing, say, 20'ish (F). And you would use an underquilt with your Clark (and your BB) for all of those temperatures?
    I would use an Underquilt with my Clark at any temp below 60*. The pockets do work OK with clothes stuffed in them, but I wouldn't attempt below 40* without a real good sleeping bag sans UQ. Others have had more success - I like my hammock bed a little cozier.

    Quote Originally Posted by CoyoteWanderer View Post
    Which hammock do you find more comfortable, the BB or the Clark.
    You mentioned not being a convert to the HH, why is that? What didn't you like about them?
    The BB. But I have never laid in a stock BB, only ones with custom fabric of my choosing.
    The "Birth Canal" entry/exit drove me crazy on the HH, and the claustrophobia. They are comfortable hammocks if you don't mind feeling trapped; and if the "zipper mod" had been available when I owned mine, I probably would have kept it.

    Quote Originally Posted by CoyoteWanderer View Post
    Your topcover is a neat idea, how well does it stay in place getting in and out of the hammock?
    It works with the wings and shape of the BB, so no issues at all. The zippered entry is below the topcover.

    Quote Originally Posted by CoyoteWanderer View Post
    Hey, I notice your BB is camo - is that the same material as the standard BB or is that a cover you put on it?
    Both my BB's were made with custom fabric that I shipped Brandon. I just happened to use the same material to make my topcover. I will be making a sock with the same material.

    Quote Originally Posted by CoyoteWanderer View Post
    Is there a weathershield for the BB - something equivalent to the undercover for the Hennessey SS system?
    I have made this for myself, which I will be making in camo to match the BB shortly. Simple, and easy to use. No guessing, and only adds an extra 18 oz. or so to the setup. And no pad needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by CoyoteWanderer View Post
    Is there any advantage to the Clark style tarp over the hex tarps?
    Only as an additional weather layer. You can drop the tarp and velcro the ends to create a "taco" like vertical cover, that the rain/snow slides off of easily because of the steep sides, and keeps the tarp from acting like a huge sail or wind catcher in real bad weather. It's a trade-off - personally, I like a huge tarp with closeable ends, but it is a concept that Clark has designed into their tarp.

    Quote Originally Posted by CoyoteWanderer View Post
    Thank you all for your input and advice.


    CoyoteWanderer
    It is a pleasure!

  3. #13
    Member CoyoteWanderer's Avatar
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    So, Let's try to wrap this up into something usable for the next would be hammocker along.

    I think that the advice and recommendations show that all 3 hammocks would be super comfortable and completely suitable for the use I intend. Let me rank them in descending order of preference and give my reasoning so that any flaws could be pointed out.

    3. Clark NA - I really liked this hammock. Polished product, super features, professionally presented. However, it would appear that I would need a pad inside or an underquilt in order to give it the temperature range of the other two possibilities. Considering the Clark was already the most expensive option, this is not a desireable result. I either spend more money or sacrifice some comfort in order to match the other two systems. I am disappointed as the look/features of the Clark NA really fired my imagination about hammock camping.

    2. Hennessey Hammock with Super Shelter. I think that this system covered all the bases. The setup can be used, anecdotally, into the low double digits F with a good bag/space blanket and the pad that comes with the SS. As well, Hennessey are giving away snake skins with the hammock purchases from the website. So, essentially, giving a complete system for an approximate value of $280+ a little bit. I didn't notice any real feeling of claustrophobia when I, albeit briefly, was in a HH/SS a couple of weeks ago. I am convinced this would be a comfortable and workable sleep system in it's default state as well as allowing for expandability to any temperature by varying the insulation options (as proven by Shug's buddy in the -26 Minnesota trek video - speaking of which, Minnesota is much more like a province than a state - I mean, bloody cold, hockey fans, they are at least honorary Canadians). (no offense meant to any Minnesotan who didn't want to be thought of as an honorary Canadian, I'm from coastal BC, most of us would rather be Californians).

    1. Warbonnet Blackbird. The double-layer should be comparable to the SS in terms of function. A weathershield would need to be made or purchased but then the hammock would be a very comparable system to the Hennessey. However, the hammock is, by almost universal decree, roomier and more comfortable, allowing a flatter lay. This means that, among other things, a pad used inside the BB would be easier/more comfortable than in the other systems if the need arises. The price for the Blackbird runs around $170, meaning it is a cheaper option to the Hennessey assuming that a weathershield can be made/purchased for less than $110. The insulation options necessary would be nearly identical to the Hennessey and while a CCF pad isn't included like the pad in the SS, the cost for a pad can be negligable. (could be expensive too, but that is always the case).

    Before it is mentioned, yes the Blackbird doesn't come with a tarp. This would indeed push the cost of the BB higher than the Hennessey and possibly higher than the Clark, depending on the tarp chosen. However, for my purposes, I already own an Integral Designs Siltarp 2 8x10 rectangular silnylon tarp, which while not as spiffy as the MacCat catenary cut tarps or the Warbonnet SuperFly, should be entirely functional, saving myself the cost of an additional tarp. (Although, I think the superfly might be on my list for the future, since as a scout leader, I camp with a mixed bag of other people's kids. It's necessary to have some privacy for things like changing, etc.)


    So, I'll let this sit so anyone who wants can poke holes in my logic for a while. Please do so, if I have misjudged or mis-stated anything.


    Much thanks to all who post/posted on this topic. I appreciate the help.

    Cheers!

    CoyoteWanderer

  4. #14
    Senior Member animalcontrol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoyoteWanderer View Post
    ...Before it is mentioned, yes the Blackbird doesn't come with a tarp. This would indeed push the cost of the BB higher than the Hennessey and possibly higher than the Clark, depending on the tarp chosen. However, for my purposes, I already own an Integral Designs Siltarp 2 8x10 rectangular silnylon tarp, which while not as spiffy as the MacCat catenary cut tarps or the Warbonnet SuperFly, should be entirely functional, saving myself the cost of an additional tarp. (Although, I think the superfly might be on my list for the future, since as a scout leader, I camp with a mixed bag of other people's kids. It's necessary to have some privacy for things like changing, etc.)


    So, I'll let this sit so anyone who wants can poke holes in my logic for a while. Please do so, if I have misjudged or mis-stated anything.


    Much thanks to all who post/posted on this topic. I appreciate the help.

    Cheers!

    CoyoteWanderer
    While the ID tarp is a great tarp, I would fear the 10' length a tad short for a BB...you would do well to investigate a tarp like the JRB 11x10 (I can't link to their website right now). A 10' tarp is manageable, but you would have small room for error in set-up.
    Finally, you have done a great job of asking all the right questions, reading the answers given, and summarizing...
    I would agree with your rankings and btw, I have used my BB down to 5*F without a weathercover (I was using a under quilt but no top or bottom added cover). They are nice but not required so don't let that worry you at all.
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  5. #15
    Senior Member fin's Avatar
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    Yep, a weathercover is not needed but is extremely helpful when the digits drop below the freezing mark. A full sock for those conditions is much more helpful. For everyday use, it actually could get in the way.

    I never owned the SS system, so I can't speak to how they operate with the pads and space blankets and all and how that equates to a dbl bottom Blackbird. I think the only comparison there is that you can use a pad with both. I had a stock Hennessey, and felt like I wanted to cut myself out of it - that is what I meant by claustraphobic - I felt trapped in a small space with nothing at "hand" to get myself out quickly in case of trouble. Sliding out through a slit in the bottom always made me think of nature shows or the view from the bottom of an outhouse. That should be their slogan, "Born again, every morning!" I could get worse, but this is a family site. The Hennessey system has their converts, and more power to them. HYOH.

    The Clark is a great complete hammock system, and unless you are going below say 40* you probably wouldn't need augmentation in any way. I do love my Clark. Those pockets are handy, the features are great - just don't expect it to be everything you need (as some of the marketing may seem to hint at) when the weather drops to single digits fahrenheit. Narrower than others, yes. Pricey - not so much when you factor in the tarp (which covers the hammock perfectly and adequately.) Comfortable, yes - once you find the correct groove. If you are used to a diagonal lay, the Clark is not for you. If you like laying straight in a hammock, and you like a more rigid lay, take a look at one. They do have a return policy, but it is tight. You need to try your hammock out immediately when you get it, and make a quick decision.

    And I think you would be ok with your tarp on the BB. True, you won't get optimal coverate with an 8 x10 and there is little room for error, but as long as you add drip strings you should be fine. If you had ever been below a regular Clark tarp, you would understand that you don't need a monster tarp - but they are nice in foul weather and can keep you from going stir crazy at camp.

  6. #16
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    Nothing highlights the comfort of a large tarp like going camping in gusty wind and rain and being the only one who can cook. I pitched a 10x12 tarp with four tie outs per side, head into the wind on a downhill slope with the sides staked to the ground and the downhill end closed. It created a dead spot at the upper end and we sat there with my alcohol stove and my friend's Jetboil making dinner while the wind blasted up the hill. She retired to her one man dome tent while I climbed in my BB and slept, with only occasional awakenings when the wind rattled her tent fly.

  7. #17
    Member CoyoteWanderer's Avatar
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    Yeah, I figured I wouldn't have too much room for error with the siltarp. Although, I was more thinking the 4' on each side than the length. I am going to have to pitch it tight and close in. Which is ok. I think that I will have to get another tarp but it allows me to stage purchases, which is valuable to me at the moment. As well, the BB has overall better reviews than the Hennessey - if the price is going to be close, it makes more sense.

    I don't tend to cook near my shelter, as we occasionally get really large mice (I think they are called Grizzlys) in the high alpine in BC. (how a venturer scout cannot understand that putting a pizza in his tent is a bad idea, I will never know. At least it was the smaller berry eating version and the scout wasn't with the pizza. These are much more common, we get them wandering into outlaying neighbourhoods of Greater Vancouver once or twice a year. I haven't yet seen a grizzly and hope to keep it that way)

    Born Again, every morning! I love it. That's hilarious. And is also the first thing I thought when I saw one in use for the first time. No, that's not right, actually, my first thought was "that's disturbing". Mom! I'm home! See, disturbing, no?

    Thanks for the comments on the Clark - 40*F is in the single digits C and is a common mountain temp and a frequent shoulder season temp. Any sleep system I have needs to be able to cope with that "out of the box". I actually think that all 3 would be comfortable once I got used to them and got the set up right. As for the price of the Clark, well, it is more than the HH/SS which also has the tarp included. (although if you switch to the larger tarp I don't know that this is a huge difference). While I think that the clark would work just fine - use a pad inside, use the pockets, stuff I already have anyways, it just doesn't make sense to make the trade off when I don't have to.

    Assuming this works out, I probably have to buy a second hammock in a short while anyways. My son will be trying to scoop mine as soon as he figures out it is comfortable and lighter than the tent. Maybe I'll be in a better position to experiment/spend money then.
    Cheers,
    CoyoteWanderer

  8. #18
    Senior Member fin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoyoteWanderer View Post
    Born Again, every morning! I love it. That's hilarious. And is also the first thing I thought when I saw one in use for the first time. No, that's not right, actually, my first thought was "that's disturbing". Mom! I'm home! See, disturbing, no?
    My other slogan for the HH could be "Squeezed out fresh daily."

  9. #19
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoyoteWanderer View Post
    So, Let's try to wrap this up into something usable for the next would be hammocker along. ...................................
    1. Warbonnet Blackbird. The double-layer should be comparable to the SS in terms of function. A weathershield would need to be made or purchased but then the hammock would be a very comparable system to the Hennessey. However, the hammock is, by almost universal decree, roomier and more comfortable, allowing a flatter lay. This means that, among other things, a pad used inside the BB would be easier/more comfortable than in the other systems if the need arises. The price for the Blackbird runs around $170, meaning it is a cheaper option to the Hennessey assuming that a weathershield can be made/purchased for less than $110. The insulation options necessary would be nearly identical to the Hennessey and while a CCF pad isn't included like the pad in the SS, the cost for a pad can be negligable. (could be expensive too, but that is always the case). ...............................
    So, I'll let this sit so anyone who wants can poke holes in my logic for a while. Please do so, if I have misjudged or mis-stated anything.


    Much thanks to all who post/posted on this topic. I appreciate the help.

    Cheers!

    CoyoteWanderer
    Interesting post and thoughts!

    When you say: "The double-layer should be comparable to the SS in terms of function.", I'm thinking "not exactly". Only in the sense of keeping warm, then they might be comparable. But there is a potentially big difference- comparing a CCF pad to an UQ. A lot of folks( definitely not all) hate the feel and comfort aspect of a CCF pad in a hammock( even in a pad pocket, though this is IMO a big improvement over a pad in a single layer hammock). While the HH SS, regardless of whatever drawbacks it might have, in my experience is directly comparable(as far as back comfort goes) to any other UQ. Other than an increase in warmth, I can not tell any difference in feel ( back comfort) with the SS or with out it, just like with any other UQ. Having said that, I think the BB manages a pad better than most any other hammock than the JRB Bridge hammock. But it is still a closed cell pad, and not every one will put up with the different feel of a pad compared to the feel of the hammock without a pad. And that's before you even get to the back sweaters out there!

    In the end, the double layer of the BB is nothing more than a system to make a closed cell foam pad manageable in a hammock, and it does a fine job of that. A 4 oz Speer SPE also does a fine job of pad management, and the best of all is the JRB BMBH. But it is still a CCF pad ( or a Thermarest model same problems). While the HHSS, by suspending an OPEN cell foam pad UNDERNEATH the hammock ( so that it does not actually support any body weight, and is barely in contact with the user's body) has no CCF pad feel at all, rather it feels like an UQ. So to more directly compare the feel of these two you would actually need to add some sort of UQ to the BB, IMO. ( BTW, I own and love a WBBB, as well as a HHSS( still quite a fan of it), a Speer SPE, and a JRB BMBH( great comfort), among others. As well as various quilts and pads. So I am basing these thoughts simply on my personal observations. YMMV, of course!

    Because of numerous folks who do not care for pads in hammocks, you will notice that the majority of BB users are using some form of UQ, mainly a Yeti.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Ramblinrev's Avatar
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    IMO opinion the double layer of a hammock body (I've built two of the them although they were bridge....) does not really function as the undercover of the SS. There is a level of friction and compression associated wit the double layer which keeps a pad from moving around on you. The Super Shelter under cover is not designed to do that at all. The foam is open cell so very soft and seems rather fragile although I suspect it is beefier than most give it credit for, has to have elastics to hold it in place.
    I may be slow... But I sure am gimpy.

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