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  1. #1
    Senior Member FLRider's Avatar
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    Field Test: Modular Under Insulation Wet Weather Test

    Did my first field test last night with the full (well, so far) version of my modular under-insulation system. It needs a bit of tweaking, I think. Back to the drawing board for some of it, and a simple addition to another.

    Location: Super Secret Test Site #1 (my front yard)

    Met Conditions: Temperatures ranging from 48* F to 42* F, winds ranging from 5 to 10 MPH (windchill from 44* to 36*), RH ranging from 93% to 100%, occasional light precipitation.

    Clothing: Patagonia Capilene 3 longsleeve top; mil surplus polypropolene "Drawers, Cold Weather" bottoms; wool watch cap; Darn Tough hiker socks as liners; vapor barrier bags (Publix vegetable bags) over liners; thick, loose Wigwam wool socks as primary insulation socks.

    Top Insulation: Mil surplus poncho liner used as top quilt.

    Tarp: Standard tiny asym diamond.

    Underquilt: 20* DIY 7-chamber, differentially-cut down quilt. M50 shell, 4" nanoseeum baffles (before seam allowance; ~3.5" after sewing), 14 oz of 850 fp down.

    Undercover: 30d sil poncho, vented at head hole and ends.

    Test Subject Information: I had a fairly easy night at work last night; I was sober, well-fed (an individual size pizza at ~2 hours before bed), and well-hydrated.


    Results:

    I slept very well and warm for the evening. I woke once due to my neighbors coming home at ~3 AM, but aside from that slept straight through from ~1 AM to ~7:30 AM. I woke and checked my underquilt by sticking my hand between it and the undercover. It was very damp from condensation, and I got up to make coffee before making any other observations.

    An hour later, I went back outside to check on the quilt. I removed the undercover from the hammock, and discovered that the edges of the quilt towards the top were less damp than the bottom. However, there did not seem to be any loss of loft (I think this might've been eaten up by the ~20% overstuff I did on the quilt, along with M50's lack of water permeability). I wiped down with a dry bandanna, removing what I could, and skinned the hammock and insulation before taking everything down.

    I'm going to set it up again tonight (the forecast is for ~39* F tonight with considerably less humidity) and see if there's any noticeable loss of loft or temperature rating.

    As of right now, my first impression is to add suspension attachment points to the underquilt, rather than the hammock, to allow the UQP to hang lower (and therefore not actually in contact with the underquilt). We'll see if that's truly necessary, or if the total amount of condensation in/on the quilt is worth worrying about.

    The other option is to drag along my space blanket and fit that between the underquilt and the hammock. But that would mean sleeping on a vapor barrier, and I am very leery of doing it. The few times I've tried that in the past, I've woken up damp and cold (though spot vapor barriers, like what I wore on my feet last night, have worked for me so far).
    "Just prepare what you can and enjoy the rest."
    --Floridahanger

  2. #2
    Herder of Cats OutandBack's Avatar
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    Nice report FLRider.
    I'm in the camp of everything below the tarp needs to be very breathable.

    Am I understanding this correctly are you are using a very small tarp
    (weight and pack size saving?) then using a waterproof UQP for the added
    rain protection needed do to the small tarp?

  3. #3
    Senior Member FLRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OutandBack View Post
    Nice report FLRider.
    I'm in the camp of everything below the tarp needs to be very breathable.

    Am I understanding this correctly are you are using a very small tarp
    (weight and pack size saving?) then using a waterproof UQP for the added
    rain protection needed do to the small tarp?
    Yes. My tarp measures 134" long by 105" wide, and is an asymmetrical diamond-load parallelogram. It works just fine against straight-down rain, but I need the undercover to prevent windblown rain from hitting the hammock underside. It allows me to get by with a total added shelter weight over my rain gear of 8.5 oz, including stakes and guylines. It also holds my >50* F "insulation" against the bottom of the hammock: an 0.6-oz space blanket, crumpled up to prevent air movement underneath the hammock. However, we don't get much precipitation below ~50* F here in Florida (though this winter has been an exception; I've felt like I was living in Seattle for the last few weeks), and I wanted to hop on it before the current weather trend goes away.

    I'd been hoping that enough venting at the ends of the undercover and at the head hole (it doubles as my poncho) would defeat serious condensation. That was not the case this morning. Which is one of the reasons that I want to see how my underquilt does tonight; if there's a serious loss of loft after being in a mostly non-breathable skin (similar to a LST or oversized snakeskin, but with only one tube rather than two that meet in the middle) tossed in a waterproof tote tub (to help replicate conditions inside of my pack under all-day rain and humidity), then I definitely need to rethink things. If not, then I might be able to get by with minor changes to my under insulation/weather protection system.

    We'll see!
    "Just prepare what you can and enjoy the rest."
    --Floridahanger

  4. #4
    Herder of Cats OutandBack's Avatar
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    I think that's a great test and you could not ask for better weather for max condensation generation.
    As I read what you are doing in the back of my mind I keep thinking about the Hennessey Hammock Super Shelter design or system.
    They are very similar in that HH is using a very small tarp and providing additional rain protection with it's sylnylon undercover.
    The HHSS also is tight enough to hold the foamrubber/reflectex insulation up against your bottomside.

    I own that system and found a spaceblanket was required to stop the moisture from my body condensing on my insulation.

  5. #5
    Senior Member FLRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OutandBack View Post
    I think that's a great test and you could not ask for better weather for max condensation generation.
    As I read what you are doing in the back of my mind I keep thinking about the Hennessey Hammock Super Shelter design or system.
    They are very similar in that HH is using a very small tarp and providing additional rain protection with it's sylnylon undercover.
    The HHSS also is tight enough to hold the foamrubber/reflectex insulation up against your bottomside.

    I own that system and found a spaceblanket was required to stop the moisture from my body condensing on my insulation.
    Yep. That's more-or-less what I was looking for; the only things that were missing were completely dead air and a nearby water source (such as a lake or stream) to bump the humidity even more.

    It is very similar to the HHSS, since I'm facing many of the same concerns. I was hoping that venting and the small amount of space that's between my underquilt and the poncho (when I'm not in the hammock; it would appear that they're touching when I'm actually lying down, which is part of the problem) would be enough. Apparently not. Either I need more space between the two or a vapor barrier between me and the underquilt.

    If it turns out to be not much of a problem tonight, then I may give it some longer-term testing when possible before changing the design (though I'm running out of nights here locally where that's possible). If it does turn out to be a problem tonight, then some rethinking is in order...
    "Just prepare what you can and enjoy the rest."
    --Floridahanger

  6. #6
    Herder of Cats OutandBack's Avatar
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    I sure hope you will report your findings. I really enjoy well thought out tests.

    For me, since I am now retired and usually spend a minimum of 2 nights and most times 3-4
    I could not deal with the condensation buildup over days.
    Several times the weather did not allow drying time so I abandoned the non breathable HHSS
    system and opted for a larger tarp providing max weather protection.
    To save weight and space in the pack I went with seasonal down quilts.
    Even with a larger tarp with one set of doors I believe my current system packs smaller and is lighter.
    Not to mention the simplicity of 1 tarp, a single layer hammock, 1 UQ, 1 TQ.
    Hang them and forget them. No tweaking or adjust thru the night and zero condensation problems ever since.


  7. #7
    Senior Member FLRider's Avatar
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    Location: Super Secret Test Site #1 (my front yard)

    Met Conditions: Temperatures ranging from 42* F to 34* F, winds light and variable (zero windchill), RH ranging from 93% to 97%, zero precipitation.

    Clothing: Patagonia Capilene 3 longsleeve top; mil surplus polypropolene "Drawers, Cold Weather" bottoms; wool watch cap; thin polyester running socks as liners; vapor barrier bags (Publix vegetable bags) over liners; thick, loose Wigwam wool socks as primary insulation socks.

    Top Insulation: Mil surplus poncho liner used as top quilt.

    Tarp: None (wanted to see the stars).

    Underquilt: 20* DIY 7-chamber, differentially-cut down quilt. M50 shell, 4" nanoseeum baffles (before seam allowance; ~3.5" after sewing), 14 oz of 850 fp down.

    Undercover: 30d sil poncho, vented at head hole and ends.

    Test Subject Information: I had a fairly easy night at work last night; I was sober, well-fed (two slices ~2.5 hours before bed), and well-hydrated.


    Results:

    I slept very well and warm for the evening.

    I was worried about my under insulation (my poncho liner is almost moisture-impervious to anything short of dunking or a full downpour) at first; it took an extra five minutes for it to loft up the whole way following its removal from my oversized snake skin. It appeared a bit "clumpy" as well, at first. There was no moisture in evidence on the quilt's shell, whereas there had been some even after a wipedown with a bandanna yesterday morning. This made me think that it had migrated into the quilt's down, causing it to not loft completely.

    However, I gave it fifteen minutes (total) between pulling it out and trying to get into bed. I shook it a bit to aid in lofting and to recenter the down (a significant portion had shifted towards the head end, I think due to the direction of my skinning the hammock and insulation yesterday) at about five minutes into the process. I then hung my undercover underneath at fifteen minutes and crawled into bed.

    I slept warm, though the temperatures were easing down into the range that I'll probably want a pad or pack under my legs in the future. I was okay on this one, but I could definitely feel the difference where the quilt ended. Throw in some wind, an exhausting day on trail, and...

    I woke about thirty minutes ago, to virtually no condensation on the outside of my quilt (there was some on the inside of the undercover, down around where the head hole is, but a looser hang of it this time kept the condensation from being in contact with the quilt). It's fully-lofted and the down is in all of the right spots. Aside from my feet being a bit chilled when I pulled off the vapor barriers and thick socks this morning, I consider this a successful test.

    I need to do more testing in the near-future, but I'm much more hopeful than I was yesterday morning. We'll see...
    "Just prepare what you can and enjoy the rest."
    --Floridahanger

  8. #8
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLRider View Post
    Did my first field test last night with the full (well, so far) version of my modular under-insulation system. ................
    As of right now, my first impression is to add suspension attachment points to the underquilt, rather than the hammock, to allow the UQP to hang lower (and therefore not actually in contact with the underquilt). We'll see if that's truly necessary, or if the total amount of condensation in/on the quilt is worth worrying about.

    The other option is to drag along my space blanket and fit that between the underquilt and the hammock. But that would mean sleeping on a vapor barrier, and I am very leery of doing it. The few times I've tried that in the past, I've woken up damp and cold (though spot vapor barriers, like what I wore on my feet last night, have worked for me so far).
    For whatever reason, I( and a few others here also) have been using a space B. in exactly that fashion for years and have remained bone dry or close to it. But not every one has had the same success, so there you go. The only time I have had any condensation problems with this system- other than a few drops evident one time in the lowest part of the sil-nylon under cover- is the one time I used no SB in very humid conditions ( next to a river in the Olympic mtns of WA). Bag and pad foot end soaked! (caused no problem though, all was dry at next nights camp, even though packed up wet)

    Quote Originally Posted by OutandBack View Post
    ....
    The HHSS also is tight enough to hold the foamrubber/reflectex insulation up against your bottomside.

    I own that system and found a spaceblanket was required to stop the moisture from my body condensing on my insulation.
    Roger that, my experience also.

    Quote Originally Posted by FLRider View Post
    Location: Super Secret Test Site #1 (my front yard)

    Met Conditions: Temperatures ranging from 42* F to 34* F, winds light and variable (zero windchill), RH ranging from 93% to 97%, zero precipitation.

    Clothing: Patagonia Capilene 3 longsleeve top; mil surplus polypropolene "Drawers, Cold Weather" bottoms; wool watch cap; thin polyester running socks as liners; vapor barrier bags (Publix vegetable bags) over liners; thick, loose Wigwam wool socks as primary insulation socks.

    Top Insulation: Mil surplus poncho liner used as top quilt.

    Tarp: None (wanted to see the stars).

    Underquilt: 20* DIY 7-chamber, differentially-cut down quilt. M50 shell, 4" nanoseeum baffles (before seam allowance; ~3.5" after sewing), 14 oz of 850 fp down.

    Undercover: 30d sil poncho, vented at head hole and ends.

    Test Subject Information: I had a fairly easy night at work last night; I was sober, well-fed (two slices ~2.5 hours before bed), and well-hydrated.


    Results:

    I slept very well and warm for the evening.

    I was worried about my under insulation (my poncho liner is almost moisture-impervious to anything short of dunking or a full downpour) at first; it took an extra five minutes for it to loft up the whole way following its removal from my oversized snake skin. It appeared a bit "clumpy" as well, at first. There was no moisture in evidence on the quilt's shell, whereas there had been some even after a wipedown with a bandanna yesterday morning. This made me think that it had migrated into the quilt's down, causing it to not loft completely.

    However, I gave it fifteen minutes (total) between pulling it out and trying to get into bed. I shook it a bit to aid in lofting and to recenter the down (a significant portion had shifted towards the head end, I think due to the direction of my skinning the hammock and insulation yesterday) at about five minutes into the process. I then hung my undercover underneath at fifteen minutes and crawled into bed.

    I slept warm, though the temperatures were easing down into the range that I'll probably want a pad or pack under my legs in the future. I was okay on this one, but I could definitely feel the difference where the quilt ended. Throw in some wind, an exhausting day on trail, and...

    I woke about thirty minutes ago, to virtually no condensation on the outside of my quilt (there was some on the inside of the undercover, down around where the head hole is, but a looser hang of it this time kept the condensation from being in contact with the quilt). It's fully-lofted and the down is in all of the right spots. Aside from my feet being a bit chilled when I pulled off the vapor barriers and thick socks this morning, I consider this a successful test.

    I need to do more testing in the near-future, but I'm much more hopeful than I was yesterday morning. We'll see...
    Sounds like a plan is coming together!

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