Rope Tree Huggers

**Frawg** · 07-24-2009, 11:07

To get back to the sticks... to me it's a trade off between efforts -- whether to carry the weight of straps as you walk, or to expend effort at every stop (perhaps in the rain) to gather and assemble their replacement. I'd rather just carry the straps, personally. YMMV, HYOH, etc.

Still, I think it's helpful to try different ways of thinking about problems. Sometimes answers become more obvious when you find a good way to think about the question.

**Frawg** · 07-24-2009, 12:06

Here are two photos I just took, showing some bark damage caused by hanging directly from 7/64 AmSteel Blue for about 1/2 hour:

The damage was actually a bit shiny, probably polishing caused when one of the hitches I was experimenting with (Siberian) capsized, causing a small 'slide' of the rope along the bark.

The tree is a live oak in our yard, btw. My dad wants to take it down; I'm trying to prevent that.

**TeeDee** · 07-24-2009, 14:46

Originally Posted by Ramblinrev

I think all this is very interesting but I do have a question unrelated to the physics of it all. How does this impact the motivation to demonstrate proper hanging technique to the non-hanging world? I understand the solo stealth application of this but to quote agent "K" from MIB "A person is smart... people are dumb." A quick glance at the webbing around the tree it is obvious we have changed the paradigm. A quick glance at ropes around the tree and how likely are people to see the sticks under the rope?

I'm not trying to dis the concept. I think it's cool. But I also think we need to not "soil our own bed" if you understand my concern.

Not to keep the discussion on this going, but your concern is valid.

Also, what frawg said and quoted from Ben is valid too.

It is probably good politics to combine the two:

Use webbing when hanging in very public places where the un-initiated will be observing or where park rangers can stop you and others.

However, when hanging in places where being observed by the un-initiated is not a problem and rangers are either educated or not present, then rope huggers are a valid option.

Each person would just have to determine the circumstances for themselves.

**TeeDee** · 07-24-2009, 15:05

Originally Posted by Frawg

To get back to the sticks... to me it's a trade off between efforts -- whether to carry the weight of straps as you walk, or to expend effort at every stop (perhaps in the rain) to gather and assemble their replacement. I'd rather just carry the straps, personally. YMMV, HYOH, etc.

Still, I think it's helpful to try different ways of thinking about problems. Sometimes answers become more obvious when you find a good way to think about the question.

Let's see - walking for 8+ hours with extra load and reduced pack capacity vs scrounging the immediate vicinity for a few minutes.

Not a big decision for me.

Another factor to throw around. I always carry a 50' length of Vectrus or Amsteel Blue (now AS-78) for use when rope is needed. Adds all of 4 oz to my load - cheap insurance. Also, it serves double duty as a ridge line for my tarp. I have never been out and not needed it - of course since I have it, I may find situations for needing it

Things happen and if the webbing is compromised, then the rope I carry could be used to substitute. I definitely would not carry extra webbing huggers. Not as useful as 50' of AS-78 and 50' of webbing is 3 times the weight and 4 or 5 times the bulk.

**TeeDee** · 07-24-2009, 15:37

Originally Posted by angrysparrow

I have not experienced the issue you have with the Amsteel coating fusing to the toggles, but my longest hang on the rope huggers so far has only been about an hour.

In my experience, the problem would probably show up in the one hour if it is present.

So I infer that the problem isn't present using the biner.

My conclusion, maybe erroneous, is that the Samthane doesn't adhere to the surface of the biner like it does to my stainless steel toggles. The biners are most likely anodized and that may prevent the adhesion or maybe the AL of the biner is what prevents the adhesion.

Now to find some AL toggles and test. A biner like you are using may be a good start to test with. Will have to do some searching and testing to satisfy myself that an AL toggle will hold the forces.

Hmm - Titanium may work also. I don't have TI bar or tubing available unfortunately.

Will have to start researching other metals.

Originally Posted by angrysparrow

A word about the rope huggers and toggles - As is obvious, using the marlinspike hitch on a rope hugger puts a tremendous amount of force on a small surface area of the toggle, far more than when using webbing. I had grown accustomed to getting double-use from my tarp stakes by using them as toggles with the webbing marlinspike hitch. But as soon as I used the stakes with rope, they failed immediately upon being weighted. I haven't replaced them with a more robust toggle yet, and have taken to using a biner as a toggle on the rope huggers in the interim.

Yep - with webbing the loop can be very easily set so that the webbing is taking the force of the hammock and the only force on the toggle is a compression force. This is possible with extreme caution with the rope, but not a safe assumption. You will most likely have the full force of the hammock on the toggle.

**Frawg** · 07-24-2009, 16:05

I'm puzzled by the tent stake toggle failure that angrysparrow reported. My toggles are made from cheap tent stakes and they take the full force of the hang (~ 200# in my case) without difficulty.

My instincts are that although localized compression on the toggle will be higher with ropes vice straps, the bending moment should be less because ropes concentrate the forces closer to the center of the toggle. IME with 7/64 AmSteel Blue the aluminum toggles have stood up well. I have yet to see even a hint of deformation, let alone failure, with my toggles.

**angrysparrow** · 07-24-2009, 16:15

Originally Posted by Frawg

I'm puzzled by the tent stake toggle failure that angrysparrow reported. My toggles are made from cheap tent stakes and they take the full force of the hang (~ 200# in my case) without difficulty.

Don't be puzzled...I'm not. I was using Carbon Fiber stakes (I picked up a large number of these as used items for a great price). They don't have nearly the stength against lateral compression that an aluminum stake would. The flip side is that they are very light, and stand up to a lot of punishment (just not this in particular case).

**TeeDee** · 07-24-2009, 16:21

Originally Posted by angrysparrow

Don't be puzzled...I'm not. I was using Carbon Fiber stakes (I picked up a large number of these as used items for a great price). They don't have nearly the stength against lateral compression that an aluminum stake would. The flip side is that they are very light, and stand up to a lot of punishment (just not this in particular case).

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh - I see.

Okay that makes me feel better about maybe using AL.

Frawg - have you noticed any tendency of the Samthane on your setup to adhere to the AL you are using?? I mean to the point that you cannot rotate the AL in the rope??

**Frawg** · 07-24-2009, 16:24

Thanks for the clarification, angrysparrow!

TeeDee, I can rotate and even remove the toggles without problem, and I've seen none of the adhesion you describe. Reinserting a removed toggle into one of my 'slip knot' eyes is next to impossible, though.

**TeeDee** · 07-24-2009, 16:36

Originally Posted by Frawg

Thanks for the clarification, angrysparrow!

TeeDee, I can rotate and even remove the toggles without problem, and I've seen none of the adhesion you describe. Reinserting a removed toggle into one of my 'slip knot' eyes is next to impossible, though.

Okay, then that points to the fact that the culprit is the stainless steel. I'll have to scrounge some AL bar stock and test.