Using a carabiner to clip directly into a marlin spike hitch.

[JBizzle]

So, to put everything to rest on a slipping MSH when used with a biner -

You learn something new every day.

After hundreds of MSH tied over the years, I discover that there are two different ways to tie a MSH.

Both function exactly the same when used with a toggle.

Each functions VERY differently when used with a carabiner and you clip your whoopies into that.

Take a look

So, with this new found knowledge, I agree that a slippery half hitch behind the MSH is overkill when using a climbing rated biner and clipping your whoopie into it. AS LONG AS YOU MAKE SURE you tie it by pulling the non-working end through the MSH "loop" - the biner would crush or the webbing would tear before the MSH will fail.

Don't tie the MSH by pulling the working end through the loop - it can fail when tied that way under load.

You da man! Great video, great demonstration and way to think outside the box. I, too, didn't think about tying it the way it doesn't hold because...well...it doesn't hold that way.

[Shewie]

So, to put everything to rest on a slipping MSH when used with a biner -

You learn something new every day.

After hundreds of MSH tied over the years, I discover that there are two different ways to tie a MSH.

Both function exactly the same when used with a toggle.

Each functions VERY differently when used with a carabiner and you clip your whoopies into that.

Take a look

So, with this new found knowledge, I agree that a slippery half hitch behind the MSH is overkill when using a climbing rated biner and clipping your whoopie into it. AS LONG AS YOU MAKE SURE you tie it by pulling the non-working end through the MSH "loop" - the biner would crush or the webbing would tear before the MSH will fail.

Don't tie the MSH by pulling the working end through the loop - it can fail when tied that way under load.

Thanks for putting that short vid together

I didn't realise there was two ways to tie a MSH, luckily I've been using the second method you showed by pulling the standing end through, a la Shug in his "How To" series

I suppose if I'd tried it the other way by chance I'd have only done it the once

[Alamosa]

Tenderfoot, I think that video is great for making the discussion, thank you. It finally made it clear to me why some people were afraid to clip to the whoopie.

To the conversation in general, I do have to argue against the comments being made that there are two ways to tie the MSH. If the resulting knot is different - has different characteristics - it is a different knot. Just like there are multiple ways to tie a square knot, but if you don't do the alternate methods correctly, you can end up with a square, granny, or thief knot. Each has different characteristics, but is not a square knot.

In this case, I believe the first method demonstrated in the video is not showing a MSH. If the bight can be pulled out by pulling on the toggle, it is not a proper MSH (no idea what it is called). IMO, it is an accident waiting to happen. A correctly tied MSH - bight on the standing line - eliminates the threat of the knot coming apart.

[garethw]

Hi there
Even with a toggle, I've always folded the loop up towards the tree when tying the MSH. I learned it off the Grizz videos. Never had the slightest problem with a toggle. And I guess that even if I used a Carabiner it would hold just fine.
It seems to me that it stands to reason that, even with a toggle, if you fold the loop down when you tie the hitch it can pull out & dump you on the floor....Is it just me or is this not obvious!!!
So while there may be two ways to tie the hitch, as far as hammocking is concerned there is only one correct way.
cheers
Gareth

[Tendertoe]

Thanks all.

It's interesting because when I learned to tie the hitch, I always thought I was tying it correctly (I know others tie it the same way I do because on the thread I mentioned from a couple of months ago, there was more than one response recommending backing up the MSH with a slippery half hitch to prevent failure).

If you image search for marlinspike hitch you will get many ambiguous pictures that do not show the working end. This could be the reason for the misconception - at least for me, and possibly for others that I know are also tying it "incorrectly".

The risk when tied "incorrectly" and used in the "traditional" way with a toggle and placing the whoopie behind it - I feel - is minimal. When used with a biner and clipping into it, the results could be disastrous.

Just as Alamosa explains, if you slightly alter the way the MSH is tied it ends up being a variation, which could cause some issues when used this way.

If you want to use a biner and clip in, tie the MSH correctly!

[garethw]

Following my post above I just went out to the garden to tie the hitch both ways to a piece of webbing with a carabiner to see what happens....
Actually both hold well on webbing and probably there would be enough strength in this form of the hitch to hold the hammock ok too... BUT by looping the webbing down it cinches up so tight it is hard to undo afterwards... I guess after a night in a hammock this way I'd have to cut the webbing to undo it.
However if you loop up even by pulling as hard as I can on the biner the loop comes undone when I slip it out...
cheers
Gareth

[Alamosa]

This is the cleanest example of tieing the MSH that I found in a quick search - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marlinespike_hitch

I do normally end up with the "Undesirable capsized form". May be unavoidable given the tension applied by a hammock.

[weaver2469]

It seems to me that it stands to reason that, even with a toggle, if you fold the loop down when you tie the hitch it can pull out & dump you on the floor....Is it just me or is this not obvious!!!

Gareth

I tie it like you do, so I agree with you as to the best one, but I think with a toggle, there is no load on the loop of the knot. It is the knot itself that you are hanging from instead of the loop inside of the knot. The toggle just keeps the knot from collapsing, it doesn't actually load the knot. The biner method actually pulls on the loop as a load bearing part of the system. I think with a toggle, both ways work.

[Towellie]

This <------------ can never happen with ------->This

[TFC Rick]

Nick that is what I do and have for awhile. I do put a little halfie behind it which only requires pulling the free end to undo, which can be done in mittens no prob. It's prolly more of a habit though.