Freezing Temps and Open Cell Foam

[CITC]

Eventually all of this mental exercise comes down to getting out in the cold and trying it out.

I have been down to -10F and experienced nothing but comfort with a full foam system (ever changed your clothes outside in 5F weather? It's freaking cold!). This was only for one night. This winter I will be going down lower for longer periods of time.

One of the reasons that I'm doing this is because I can not hang onto the coat tails of the one guy who has done so much more than I have in the 30+ years he's been doing it. He's spent months outside in the Arctic with this system and testing all types of sleeping bags. He has found that fiber and down fail in less than a week. These are extreme conditions that he was fortunate enough to test in. -40F and lower for weeks at a time.

I do not have the funds at this time to duplicate those conditions, but I will be doing all that I can locally to gain more personal experience with it, so that those experiences will be mine to share.

So, go play with these ideas; put them to the test in an environment that will give you a fall back should they fail.

Usually I don't even take my hammock when I winter camp. I'll toss my bag onto a ground cloth and sleep on the snow with no tent, no hammock.

One of the most rewarding sounds when I'm on a scout camp is waking up around 2am and listening to the cars running in the parking lot! I smile, look at the crisp clear cold sky and brilliant stars, tuck my head in and go back to sleep.

And then smile again when asked in the morning, "So, John. How did you sleep in that foam bag with no tent?"

You've just GOT to LOVE it!

[east_stingray]

Weeks at -40 is fortunate? You crazy!

You could always make nice with someone who owns a restaurant and see if you can sleep in their walk-in for a couple of weeks

[Shug]

I visited the order page on the site as well and found that if you select the 1.5 inch only foam option that the cost of the sleeping bag drops to $506. Which when you compare it to the commercial under quilt and top quilt options for winter use in sub freezing temps, it isn't really that bad. As an old adage goes "Expensive..... compared to what?"

Ie. Speer PeaPod + TopBlanket = $400 + $225 = $625
Speer SnugFit + TopBlanket = $340 + $225 = $565
JRB Mt Washington 4 + Old Rag Mtn = $360 + $300 = $660
Pick your under quilt and a Big Agnes, Western Mountaineering Bag or Nunatak Arc Alpinist Quilt ($387) and you get the idea that other options are just as expensive.

Now granted the down quilts are lighter and way more compressible and thus more suited to backpacking. But if you recall Shug on his -26F winter adventure he was using a pulk sled to haul his gear so weight wasn't a big concern.
Cheers
Brian

It was a wee bit of a concern as I still had to break trail and pull it up-hill and hold it back on down-hills as I was in the woods on a trail. Wanted to just test some winter carrying theories.
I did find that down does and can lose loft in those sub 0 conditions and it made me really thing of how to better my sleeping clothes system this winter. My plan is to wear less initially when first crawling in for the night ..... I do think I wore too much last year and sweated more than I should have. Then I will add layers as needed throughout the night .... when I rise to pee and such. It takes willpower to add layers for some reason ... you are laying there right next to them but just don't want to get out of the quilt! But adding them through the night as my body naturally cools should help somewhat. I shall see. In the past I have kept my bag at the top of my pack to sun dry it if the opportunity come about ..... that moisture does get in there and freeze or something plus all the breath vapor frost on the bag as well. I ain't no scientifical type but these are my true experiences in -27º while hammocking.

I am grateful for your insight and patience in answering questions. This forum has been extremely helpful to many and your input is appreciated.

Me too .... handled with grace and dignity. And good answers.
As a sub 0 winter camper...... I sure appreciate them.
If the foam bag was light enough for backpacking I would love to test it out!!!!

Eventually all of this mental exercise comes down to getting out in the cold and trying it out.

I have been down to -10F and experienced nothing but comfort with a full foam system (ever changed your clothes outside in 5F weather? It's freaking cold!). This was only for one night. This winter I will be going down lower for longer periods of time.

One of the reasons that I'm doing this is because I can not hang onto the coat tails of the one guy who has done so much more than I have in the 30+ years he's been doing it. He's spent months outside in the Arctic with this system and testing all types of sleeping bags. He has found that fiber and down fail in less than a week. These are extreme conditions that he was fortunate enough to test in. -40F and lower for weeks at a time.

I do not have the funds at this time to duplicate those conditions, but I will be doing all that I can locally to gain more personal experience with it, so that those experiences will be mine to share.

So, go play with these ideas; put them to the test in an environment that will give you a fall back should they fail.

Usually I don't even take my hammock when I winter camp. I'll toss my bag onto a ground cloth and sleep on the snow with no tent, no hammock.

One of the most rewarding sounds when I'm on a scout camp is waking up around 2am and listening to the cars running in the parking lot! I smile, look at the crisp clear cold sky and brilliant stars, tuck my head in and go back to sleep.

And then smile again when asked in the morning, "So, John. How did you sleep in that foam bag with no tent?"

You've just GOT to LOVE it!

Thanks for all the info and answering everyones querys with aplomb.
Shug

[CITC]

Weeks at -40 is fortunate? You crazy!

You could always make nice with someone who owns a restaurant and see if you can sleep in their walk-in for a couple of weeks

Actually, that's not a bad idea! ...all that food at hand, to boot...

[CITC]

It was a wee bit of a concern as I still had to break trail and pull it up-hill and hold it back on down-hills as I was in the woods on a trail. Wanted to just test some winter carrying theories.
I did find that down does and can lose loft in those sub 0 conditions and it made me really thing of how to better my sleeping clothes system this winter. My plan is to wear less initially when first crawling in for the night ..... I do think I wore too much last year and sweated more than I should have. Then I will add layers as needed throughout the night .... when I rise to pee and such. It takes willpower to add layers for some reason ... you are laying there right next to them but just don't want to get out of the quilt! But adding them through the night as my body naturally cools should help somewhat. I shall see. In the past I have kept my bag at the top of my pack to sun dry it if the opportunity come about ..... that moisture does get in there and freeze or something plus all the breath vapor frost on the bag as well. I ain't no scientifical type but these are my true experiences in -27º while hammocking.



Me too .... handled with grace and dignity. And good answers.
As a sub 0 winter camper...... I sure appreciate them.
If the foam bag was light enough for backpacking I would love to test it out!!!!


Thanks for all the info and answering everyones querys with aplomb.
Shug

Good info, Shug. Thanks for sharing your experience.

Tell me what weight you would consider for a backpacking bag. It's a good challenge and may expand my market, if successful.

[gargoyle]

Testing the ocf bag in a modern day freezer will not be true to life results. Frost and moisture are controlled in todays techno freezers. (When is the last time you had to defrost your freezer?) And most freeze only to 20* min. Sure, there are some super chilled freezers out there, but still with moisture management already in the chilling process. The coldest I've worked on is a -40 flash freezer at an ice cream making co., very cold. Try taking a 80* screwdriver into a -40* environment, p.s. cell phones don't like it, either.

True frozen outdoor sub-freezing temps must be used to insure "real-life" results.

What happens to the moisture thats left in the ocf when I get out in the morning? There has to be small percentage of moisture still migrating towards the surface, which is now beginning to freeze as I pack up camp and move to the next location, correct. So, night #2, my ocf bag is slightly frozen slab? Night#3, night #4???

Sure, I can shake out my moisture mngmt. sheet. (neat idea, by the way) But what about the pad/pads that are still laden with moisture, even at a small percentage. I'm speculating that the moisture would continue to build over time and the daily freezing cycle would render the pads useless.

I've done limited cold weather camping, but I have learned frost build up is inevitable, be it in a tent, camper, wherever. I have not tried the hammock in the winter..yet.

I think your product is cool and a good idea. More testing in real life situations will be needed. One night test at home doesn't cut it. Give it a week in normal cold conditions, slush, snow, wind, etc. without the opportunity to thaw, and then I'll be impressed.

Do have a photo of your bag rolled-up? Just curious about pack size? I know it weighs 9 lbs. I'm thinking if you could lighten it up and make it work with the hammock, you'd have a good set up.

Without an opportunity to thaw and allow moisture to escape, (i.e., packed away in a backpack), where does this moisture go? It freezes inside the ocf?

These guys figured out cold camping, a long time ago.

[animalcontrol]

These guys figured out cold camping, a long time ago.

ain't that the truth...reinventing the wheel

[BER]

What happens to the moisture thats left in the ocf when I get out in the morning? There has to be small percentage of moisture still migrating towards the surface, which is now beginning to freeze as I pack up camp and move to the next location, correct. So, night #2, my ocf bag is slightly frozen slab? Night#3, night #4???

Sure, I can shake out my moisture mngmt. sheet. (neat idea, by the way) But what about the pad/pads that are still laden with moisture, even at a small percentage. I'm speculating that the moisture would continue to build over time and the daily freezing cycle would render the pads useless.

Yes, lost amongst the mind numbing discussion on partial pressures, relative humidity and iced substrates, this was the question that I was really trying to have answered. Thanks gargoyle for bringing it back to reality.

Even if the system could be whittled down to 6-7 pounds, you'd at least be getting much closer to a deep winter camping setup of traditional bags plus pads. It would be fun to try in any case.

[Pitch]

Good info, Shug. Thanks for sharing your experience.

Tell me what weight you would consider for a backpacking bag. It's a good challenge and may expand my market, if successful.

If I may, I'm going to expand your question to make it more relevant.

Lets try:

"For a given temperature range, what weight would you consider for a backpacking bag?"

and then

"Please give several temperature ranges and associated weights"

and a follow up statement of

"No worries about exact temps or weights... this is completely subjective but interesting nonetheless

Everyone who has experience w/ this should chime in

[Cannibal]

I agree with BER on the weight range. For long term use in a sub-zero environment, 7 pounds of sleep gear really isn't that bad. When you stop and think about the conditions in which this system is designed to work, even 9 pounds isn't unreasonable.

Remember, we're talking night after night of temps below 0F. That's some pretty serious stuff. I wonder what the total weight of pads, bags, and quilts Turk carried on his crazy little arctic adventure last year; or was it the year before? I get confused this early; especially when people make me look up words like "aplomb".