View Full Version : Membrane Sil 15 denier Review
squidbilly
12-19-2014, 17:22
Recently, Kyle of Ripstopbytheroll sent me 8 yards of his newMembrane Sil to make a hex with. I thought I would take a break and share my initial impressions with you. I just happen to have 8 yards of SilArgon to compare it to. As far as weight, it is comparable.9912199122
Like Kyle said: the Membrane has two distinct sides. The face has a matte finish and the back is more glossy. It is not a ripstop, but a plain weave.
Amazingly, it does seem to have much less bias stretch than the 15 or 20 denier ripstop sil-fabrics. I don't know how to quantify that for you, but it is noticeable.
The first thing I noticed is the way it feels and handles. It feels as soft and light as Argon, but is much less slippery than other silnylons, including SilArgon.
Being less slippery, it sews like a dream: no problems with feeding or uneven stitches from the fabric layers sliding against each other. Compared to regular silnylon it is very easy to sew. Have you noticed how silnylon will slide itself off the table if even the smallest portion is left hanging off the edge?
Not this stuff. 99123991249912599126
I will post pictures of the tarp later when it's finished, I just wanted to share my initial impression of this remarkable new material with y'all.
Bad Biscuit
12-19-2014, 17:34
Sounds awesome! I look forward to seeing the results
squidbilly
12-20-2014, 19:23
Here is a picture of the finished tarp on the scale99180
That is 11ozs for a full 12' X 10' tarp. And yes, that is a quart size ziplock bag. That should give you an idea of how small this fabric will compress down to.
Other views: 991819918299183 If you like the non-glossy flat black look you will love this material. The flourescent green thread I used for contrast really pops out.
9918499185 Not much puckering or twisting along the cat-cut edges under tension that I've seen with other lightweight sil materials. You see a little on the inside view picture. Also, it's hard to tell in the picture, but it has a purple or bluish tint on the inside with light shining through.
I have done no hydrostatic testing of this fabric: I think Kyle covered that pretty well already. Again, the most noticeable difference in this fabric is the feel and ease of handling/sewing. It's actually a joy to work with.
Looks great! I'll probably have a go with this fabric at some point. The green stitching looks great, and WOW... those are some straight stitch lines. I'd like to hear how this fabric behaves in use compared with normal sil.
Thanks for the review, allthough it looks like you could make any material look good with that level of thread injecter skill.
As far as the material goes it looks like it's exactly what everyone who hikes has been waiting for - for all these years, i think the stuff sack that my hammock lives in wieghts more than that tarp.
Very nice looking fabric and definitly one to watch for how well it's gonna hold up.
Kyle , over at ripstopbytheroll has been knocking them out of the park this year!!
Hat's off to both you guys,- Squidbilly for the awesome workmanship and Kyle for another top class fabric..
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thum bup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
Grapenut
12-22-2014, 10:40
Nice sewing job on the tarp Squidbilly. Thanks for sharing the comparison info on the fabrics. G-Nut
Great job with the tarp! Your edge hems are amazing. Did you use a flat felled seam for the ridgeline?
What are your impressions of the material regarding its strength vs. the elements? Do you think the material is strong enough with just the rolled hem or if you had to do it again would it be worth edging the tarp with grosgrain to increase its strength?
squidbilly
12-22-2014, 17:03
Looks great! I'll probably have a go with this fabric at some point. The green stitching looks great, and WOW... those are some straight stitch lines. I'd like to hear how this fabric behaves in use compared with normal sil.
Thanks craige. I just quickly strung it up with shock cords to take some pics, so I really can't answer that just yet. It seems like it is going to be as good to use as it was to sew, but time will tell. I plan on taking it out for a couple of nights after Christmas. I'll let you know what I find out.
Thanks for the review, allthough it looks like you could make any material look good with that level of thread injecter skill.
As far as the material goes it looks like it's exactly what everyone who hikes has been waiting for - for all these years, i think the stuff sack that my hammock lives in wieghts more than that tarp.
Very nice looking fabric and definitly one to watch for how well it's gonna hold up.
Kyle , over at ripstopbytheroll has been knocking them out of the park this year!!
Hat's off to both you guys,- Squidbilly for the awesome workmanship and Kyle for another top class fabric..
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thum bup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
Thanks, Scott. Kyle really did a great job developing this fabric.
Nice sewing job on the tarp Squidbilly. Thanks for sharing the comparison info on the fabrics. G-Nut
Thank you, Joe. It really is some great fabric. It really doesn't act like silnylon, (except of course, for repelling water) A real joy to work with. And it does compress down about as well as Silargon.
Great job with the tarp! Your edge hems are amazing. Did you use a flat felled seam for the ridgeline?
What are your impressions of the material regarding its strength vs. the elements? Do you think the material is strong enough with just the rolled hem or if you had to do it again would it be worth edging the tarp with grosgrain to increase its strength?
Thanks Dave-O. Yes, I used a flat felled seam. I felt the need to do it all traditionally since I was reviewing the fabric. I was most interested in how well it handled and how hard or easy it was to sew. (very easy) And concerning my edge hems: I use that homemade plastic rolled hem guide invented by PrisonerOfGravity. I made it about 3/8" wide. I pop the fabric out when I get to the reinforcements, tuck them in and sew, put it back in and continue to the next corner. After that, I feed the edge under the foot in the opposite direction to use the narrow prong of my straight stitch foot as a guide to keep the second line of stitching parallel.
Even though this is a plain weave-not ripstop, I think it is plenty strong and will hold up well. Time will tell. I have some similar camo material that I made my first DIY sil tarp out of. It has been hanging out in the yard for a couple of years of abuse now. The tie-out cordage is shredded from the wind pulling the stakes up and flapping the cords around, but the material is still good: no tears and it is still waterproof. To answer your question, I would put grosgrain on Silargon to strengthen the cat-cuts. Grograin would be worth putting on anything for longevity, unless you're counting the grams, but I don't think it's absolutely necessary for Membrane.
I guess what everyone is wondering is: Is it worth the difference in price? If you struggle with sewing slippery silnylon, you will think it is worth it--it really is that much easier to sew.
squidbilly
01-04-2015, 21:03
After one week, I have discovered a big problem: I'm going to have to find something else to use as a seam-sealer. After repeated flexing (packing and unpacking) the Silnet starts to separate from the material. Permatex Flowable Silicone doesn't work any better. In fact it doesn't hold as well.
Until I find something that works better, as a seam-sealer, I'd have to recommend using the grosgrain binding method of joining the halves of your tarp.
ripstopbytheroll
01-04-2015, 21:30
After one week, I have discovered a big problem: I'm going to have to find something else to use as a seam-sealer. After repeated flexing (packing and unpacking) the Silnet starts to separate from the material. Permatex Flowable Silicone doesn't work any better. In fact it doesn't hold as well.
Until I find something that works better, as a seam-sealer, I'd have to recommend using the grosgrain binding method of joining the halves of your tarp.
Thanks for letting everyone know Squid. If you can report back on what you find I would appreciate it. I have to think there is something out there that will work. For what it's worth, I've never seam sealed my tarps and have yet to experience a leak. Then again we are using a different seam from the flat-felled. It also never hurts to be totally sure.
After one week, I have discovered a big problem: I'm going to have to find something else to use as a seam-sealer. After repeated flexing (packing and unpacking) the Silnet starts to separate from the material. Permatex Flowable Silicone doesn't work any better. In fact it doesn't hold as well.
Until I find something that works better, as a seam-sealer, I'd have to recommend using the grosgrain binding method of joining the halves of your tarp.
Squidbilly,
Thanks for posting this. I haven't received my Membrane Sil yet, but the design I was going to use was going to require seam sealing. Thanks for saving me some time and money!
Sincerely,
Dave-O
So far in all the tarps that I've made I used DIY Gear Supply's seam construction (I think it is a French Seam). I have my Membrane SIL and am ready to move forward. Do people have links to suggested seam construction...I may opt for a design that does not have the seam down the ridgeline if this is likely to be a problem. So far I have seam sealed with homemade sealer. Perhaps that is the way to go since you can make it thinner consistency to allow it to penetrate the thread holes rather than stay on the outside.
On a different note, are shock cords recommended on the tie outs like they are for regular SIL Nylon or Argon SIL?
So far in all the tarps that I've made I used DIY Gear Supply's seam construction (I think it is a French Seam). I have my Membrane SIL and am ready to move forward. Do people have links to suggested seam construction...I may opt for a design that does not have the seam down the ridgeline if this is likely to be a problem. So far I have seam sealed with homemade sealer. Perhaps that is the way to go since you can make it thinner consistency to allow it to penetrate the thread holes rather than stay on the outside.
I was originally going to use the full width of the material for the center section of my tarp and sew on the sides. Streamline and Gargoyle have different designs that do this. However, I think I'm just going to imitate the Warbonnet ridgeline construction explained by SirMarkos and Boston here (https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php/101352-DIY-12x10-tarp-questions?p=1352142&viewfull=1#post1352142). I think it would be very interesting if someone could figure out how to use the combine both concepts to have grosgrain covered seams to attach extra material to both sides of a center section. It would let you create some interesting designs much faster. Unfortunately, I think you would have to make the seam curve somehow to make sure water ran off the tarp correctly instead of building up and the grosgrain and eventually leaking.
I don't understand how covering with grosgrain eliminates leaking. Don't you now have 2 rows of stitch holes? At least a flat felled only has one row of stitches that go all the way through.
I saw a video on youTube (sailrite I think) that suggested putting a basting tape in the seam, and they said that the tape would help eliminate leaking, but they were dealing with standard waterproofing and not SIL.
I don't understand how covering with grosgrain eliminates leaking. Don't you now have 2 rows of stitch holes? At least a flat felled only has one row of stitches that go all the way through.
I don't have a tarp with this design yet, but I believe it's because the grosgrain covered seam is oriented vertically and at the apex of the ridgeline instead of laying flat so water doesn't really run over it.
squidbilly
01-05-2015, 18:59
So far in all the tarps that I've made I used DIY Gear Supply's seam construction (I think it is a French Seam). I have my Membrane SIL and am ready to move forward. Do people have links to suggested seam construction...I may opt for a design that does not have the seam down the ridgeline if this is likely to be a problem. So far I have seam sealed with homemade sealer. Perhaps that is the way to go since you can make it thinner consistency to allow it to penetrate the thread holes rather than stay on the outside.
On a different note, are shock cords recommended on the tie outs like they are for regular SIL Nylon or Argon SIL?
Homemade sealer may be the way to go. As far as shock cords on the tie-outs: I haven't tried pitching it (membrane tarp) without shock cord tensioners. Although it has very low stretch along the warp and waft, the material still has some bias stretch: a lot less than SilArgon, but still there is some.
squidbilly
01-05-2015, 19:02
I don't have a tarp with this design yet, but I believe it's because the grosgrain covered seam is oriented vertically and at the apex of the ridgeline instead of laying flat so water doesn't really run over it.
I think that is correct.
You could always mix up some DIY silicone mixture and paint the grosgrain with it.
squidbilly
01-05-2015, 19:49
Thanks for letting everyone know Squid. If you can report back on what you find I would appreciate it. I have to think there is something out there that will work. For what it's worth, I've never seam sealed my tarps and have yet to experience a leak. Then again we are using a different seam from the flat-felled. It also never hurts to be totally sure.
Are you using the Warbonnet seam (grosgrain bound)?
I have some of this stuff: http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/cnt...e-Adhesive.htm Last night I painted it onto a practice seam on a piece of silpoly. It dried to a thin, transparent and flexible layer. I can scrape it off, but it is much harder to do so than Silnet. Also, where I peeled it off, it tore along the line of stitches and remained around the stitching.
I have not had the time to seal and test the Membrane tarp with it, but I think this might work.
Remember that you're trying to get it to plug the holes made by the stitching, not coat the already waterproof fabric. Any sealer that is laminating the fabric is wasted sealer and extra weight and thick sealer is not well bonded to the fabric will de-laminate. I used SilNet on my argon tape and it is way too thick for my liking. Try thinning your sealer more. Kyle states on the page that the coating is silicone, but he also mentions some kind of special finishing process. Maybe that finishing process is interfering and he can find out from his vendor an appropriate approach to sealing. One more idea, wiping the seam with thinner before applying the sealer might help the bond. Some testing with scraps is in order....
Mad skills you're displaying there. I can't believe you're hoarding that woodland silargon though. :p
squidbilly
01-05-2015, 21:25
Remember that you're trying to get it to plug the holes made by the stitching, not coat the already waterproof fabric. Any sealer that is laminating the fabric is wasted sealer and extra weight and thick sealer is not well bonded to the fabric will de-laminate. I used SilNet on my argon tape and it is way too thick for my liking. Try thinning your sealer more. Kyle states on the page that the coating is silicone, but he also mentions some kind of special finishing process. Maybe that finishing process is interfering and he can find out from his vendor an appropriate approach to sealing. One more idea, wiping the seam with thinner before applying the sealer might help the bond. Some testing with scraps is in order....
Mad skills you're displaying there. I can't believe you're hoarding that woodland silargon though. :p
Yeah...that's been my way of looking at seam-sealing. I typically use a syringe and a sampling needle to apply the silnet or permatex just on the line of stitches. This may be a case where the homemade mixes are better.
Thanks.....yes I'm a hoarder. ;) I've been saving it to make myself a tarp, but it seems I'm always busy with other stuff.
ripstopbytheroll
01-05-2015, 21:26
Are you using the Warbonnet seam (grosgrain bound)?
I have some of this stuff: http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/cnt...e-Adhesive.htm Last night I painted it onto a practice seam on a piece of silpoly. It dried to a thin, transparent and flexible layer. I can scrape it off, but it is much harder to do so than Silnet. Also, where I peeled it off, it tore along the line of stitches and remained around the stitching.
I have not had the time to seal and test the Membrane tarp with it, but I think this might work.
Thank you for continuing to update us on the seam sealing Squid. Both the Membrane and the silpoly are effectively new coatings compared to our 1.1 oz mini-sil. The Membrane is done at a totally different textile mill and the silpoly is using a new coating process albeit from the same mill. There were some changes implemented in this round of coating to improve the overall quality of the process and what we're seeing with the sealant bond is most likely an interaction with any slight changes in the sil coating properties/composition.
Continue to keep us updated on your test panel results if you would and I'll talk to the mills in parallel. Perhaps they can shed some light on the chemical composition of the coating that will point us in the right direction.
RipstopbytheRoll can you show the seam you are using? It would be nice to profile it on your site so people know there is an issue with typical construction methods
OutandBack
01-05-2015, 23:15
Thank you for continuing to update us on the seam sealing Squid. Both the Membrane and the silpoly are effectively new coatings compared to our 1.1 oz mini-sil. The Membrane is done at a totally different textile mill and the silpoly is using a new coating process albeit from the same mill. There were some changes implemented in this round of coating to improve the overall quality of the process and what we're seeing with the sealant bond is most likely an interaction with any slight changes in the sil coating properties/composition.
Continue to keep us updated on your test panel results if you would and I'll talk to the mills in parallel. Perhaps they can shed some light on the chemical composition of the coating that will point us in the right direction.
Hi Kyle, The best seam sealer would be the same liquid that was used to waterproof the material in the first place. This is why 100% liquid silicone works so well on silnylon.
If you can get the mfg to sell you the liquid you will have the fix to this issue.
-O&B
squidbilly
01-12-2015, 21:56
So far, the Locite Vinyl,Fabric & Plastic Adhesive seems to be holding. I applied a thin coat to the line of stitches and it remains intact after a few cycles of stuffing/unstuffing the tarp this past week-end. It even endured a light rain one morning. That's better than the Silnet performed: it began to peel after the first time I stuffed the tarp into it's bag.
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/6/21/cntct_vnylpl/overview/Loctite-Vinyl-Fabric-&-Plastic-Flexible-Adhesive.htm
I think I'll coat the inside too for good measure, since it seems to be sticking.
Firesong
01-13-2015, 08:43
Isn't the inside already coated with sil?
squidbilly
01-13-2015, 09:29
Isn't the inside already coated with sil?
Quote Originally Posted by ripstopbytheroll View Post
Thank you for continuing to update us on the seam sealing Squid. Both the Membrane and the silpoly are effectively new coatings compared to our 1.1 oz mini-sil. The Membrane is done at a totally different textile mill and the silpoly is using a new coating process albeit from the same mill. There were some changes implemented in this round of coating to improve the overall quality of the process and what we're seeing with the sealant bond is most likely an interaction with any slight changes in the sil coating properties/composition.
The problem I encountered was seam-sealing the ridgeline seam (I used a flat-felled seam). I applied Silnet to the line of stitches as I have done before with silnylon tarps, but the silnet began to peel off after a short time.
This http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/6/21/cntct_vnylpl/overview/Loctite-Vinyl-Fabric-&-Plastic-Flexible-Adhesive.htm was an experiment to find something else that will stay adhered to this new material and seal the stitches.
Firesong
01-13-2015, 09:48
I misunderstood. Sounded like you were doing a larger area than the seam. Roger that.
ripstopbytheroll
01-13-2015, 11:19
So far, the Locite Vinyl,Fabric & Plastic Adhesive seems to be holding. I applied a thin coat to the line of stitches and it remains intact after a few cycles of stuffing/unstuffing the tarp this past week-end. It even endured a light rain one morning. That's better than the Silnet performed: it began to peel after the first time I stuffed the tarp into it's bag.
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/6/21/cntct_vnylpl/overview/Loctite-Vinyl-Fabric-&-Plastic-Flexible-Adhesive.htm
I think I'll coat the inside too for good measure, since it seems to be sticking.
Thanks for the update squid. Glad you found something that is working well now. Going to try and get this info on the site today.
Just Bill
01-13-2015, 11:35
Don't have any pics handy but-
I have used a "standing seam" successfully a few times. Basically I use a larger S.A. at the Ridgeline seam. 2 1/4" typically, which lets me stitch through 6 layers of fabric and creates a 3/4" wide finished standing seam. This works for lower tension tarps and creates similar strength to a Grosgrain ridgeline. Basically think of a flat felled seam but not "laid down". I use this type of seam specifically for light materials and to avoid the added weight of seam seal.
That said- I finished my Membrane tarp and used a roll width piece for the center piece, and two pieces of Sil-Nylon on the sides to complete the final shape. Again this design was to avoid seam sealing as the only stitches are in a non-critical area. FWIW- sewing Sil to Membrane was easy.
Agree with others as well- nice fabric to work with- easy to layout, cut, and sew compared to other 1.1 oz sil.
Mystery Oneal
01-21-2015, 23:48
I have a membrane sil biker's bliss tarp made by jared over at simply light designs. It has just survived its first tropical downpour. No leaks so far with rather heavy sustained rain. I am not quite sure what seam seal jarred uses, but short of a little flaking that occurred during the initial curing time, it seems to be doing the trick.
And for any that don't like the idea of a black tarp overhead... The actual color is more of an indigo once the light gets into it.
Any updates from the mill on what the preferred seam sealant should be? Any other success stories other than the loctite product? I'm going to start construction on my tarp this week.
ripstopbytheroll
02-05-2015, 11:17
Any updates from the mill on what the preferred seam sealant should be? Any other success stories other than the loctite product? I'm going to start construction on my tarp this week.
I tested the sea to summit product on the shiny side of Membrane sil and it worked perfectly. If nothing else, you can use that product without worry. I haven't circled back and tried the silnet but will do it today. My gut tells me that at least one side of this pre-production lot has some PU, which is thus causing some issues with Silnet and other 100% silicone sealants. Sil/PU is not a problem in general, but you have to test each particular recipe to make sure 100% silicone sealants will work.
I'm probably getting some membrane sil to play with soon. Won't be sealing it as I'm making an asym tarp, but it will be cool to see what it's like to work with. I'm almost positive that traditional Silnylon may have ruined a couple of my sewing machines, so here's to better sewing with membrane sil.
is the sea to summit product being used called "Sea to Summit Ultra Seam-SIL"
any updates on the loctite?
I will be trying one of these at some point and can report back
I had good luck with using silicone gasket material thinned with white gas (Coleman fuel). I tried to keep it on just the thread. On material only test pieces it had trouble with one side of the material, but adhered reasonably well on the other (If I tried I could rub it off)