View Full Version : BPL Air Core Plus - Strength Rating
I was showing off to my coworkers with my BPL air plus rated at 1100 lbs and it stretched and snapped lifting 1000 lbs. So I decided to do an experiment. I took an 18 inch piece and tied a larkhead on each end. It lifted 330 pounds ok. It lifted 525 pounds ok. It broke like twine lifting 680 pounds.:mad: It broke at the knot, but the larkshead is an unavasive knot. Also other parts of the rope frayed and showed stress. I would have guessed it would have gone higher than the rated 1100 pounds. Has this stuff let anyone down yet? I think holding 525 pounds should hold me but i was trying to build to 1000 pounds for safety. I guess I'll double it up. Sorry for making this already long thread longer , but I can't figure out how to start a new post.
Peace Dutch
GA>ME '03
headchange4u
05-10-2007, 14:14
Did it break at the knot every time?
Just Jeff
05-10-2007, 16:45
Would you please email BPL with your results and see how they respond? I'd be very interested.
Hasn't let me down yet, but this concerns me.
Would you please email BPL with your results and see how they respond?.
Please forgive my ignorance, but what's BPL? :D
Just Jeff
05-10-2007, 16:51
Backpacking Light, which sells Air Core spectra line and has a free forums section with some really smart fellers.
www.backpackinglight.com
Affiliated with Bozeman Mountain Works, who makes the Cocoon line of insulated clothing.
Backpacking Light, which sells Air Core spectra line and has a free forums section with some really smart fellers.
www.backpackinglight.com Thanks, JJ, I appreciate the explanation and not making fun for me. :p
Just Jeff
05-10-2007, 16:55
No problem. I'll wait to meet you so I can make fun of you in person. :D
No problem. I'll wait to meet you so I can make fun of you in person. :D :D :p I was thinking the same thing! :p :D
slowhike
05-10-2007, 17:35
i have BPL.com's aircore URSA dyneema, rated w/ a breaking strength of 1400lbs.
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/aircore_pro_ursa_bear_bag_hanging_rope.html
but even though jeff's been using the slightly lesser rated aircore plus on his hammock, i just can't get myself to trust a single line of something that small:confused:
maybe it's because of the few trips i took to the floor:eek:
but those falls didn't involve any of the small cord... just a lesser kind of webbing or 1.1oz hammock fabric from the $1.00 bin.
but it is incredibly light, strong stuff (2.6oz/50'). i may use it w/ multiple loops as a hammock attachment.
Just Jeff
05-10-2007, 18:13
I'd like to see the results of 550 cord, too.
Did it break at the knot every time?The 1000 pound test broke where there was no knot. The 680 pound test broke right at the knot. The knot was just the weak spot, but there were signs of stress in many places and the rope was real rigid, started to fray and rip the outer sheathing and looked stressed.
Would you please email BPL with your results and see how they respond? I'd be very interested.
Hasn't let me down yet, but this concerns me.
Jeff I did e-mail them when I made my original post but they haven't replied yet. Thanks for starting a new thread. I will let you know when they do. I will try to lift 1000 pounds with it doubled up tonight when I go to work. I work nights at a tool and die shop, and they have no idea how much gear I experiment with and make at night.
Peace Dutch
GA>ME '03
headchange4u
05-10-2007, 19:00
How exactly are you conducting the tests?
How exactly are you conducting the tests?
I use an 18 inch piece of air core plus with two larkshead tied in it. I lift preweighed molds from a smooth swivel eyebolt with a 2 ton manual hoist straight up. I lifted it a slow as possible. I should mention that when it broke at 680 pounds, it already had lifted 330 pounds and 525 pounds, but it wasn't showing any stress at those weights. At 680 pounds it got one side of the mold off the ground (the eyebolt wasn't exactly centered), but broke before lifting all the weight. It broke at the knot closest to the mold, but the knot was still intact afterwards.
Peace Dutch
GA>ME 03
That is interesting. If you want to take the knot out of the equation, try wraping the line over the pipe a few times. Just throw in a half hitch on the last wrap or 2. That should hold it.
headchange4u
05-10-2007, 20:31
You need to test some different types of webbing in the same way. That would rock. :)
My employer has been keeping me busy lately, but I will have time to drop a couple more of his $50,000+ molds from breaking strings later this week. I will try wrapping the aircore around like HE suggested. I doubled it up on my hammock so I know I have 1000 pound wt limit. I will also try some webbing. I have tubular 1" from REI, I need to order some from Speer, but there are so many things I want from him I can never make up my mind of how much I want.
BPL got back to me (sort of);
Dear Thomas, I'm sorry for the delay - your question is beyond my expertise, and Ryan Jordan (whom I would ask), is recovering from ankle surgery. I will reassign your original question to him, but it could be a bit of a wait until he's able to reply. Again, I apologize for the timing, but thank you for your patience! Kind regards, Addie --- Addie Morstad Customer Support Director
Well at least they got back to me. I know they have a stand at Traildays so if I go i will speak to them then.
Peace Dutch
slowhike
05-14-2007, 20:09
BPL.com had a stand at trail days year before last (05), but not last year (06).
i asked on a forum thread on their site & was told that they would be there this year, but i'm not sure who the person was that told me that, so i'm just guessing that they will be there.
i hope so. it's always better to be able to hold something in your hand rather than rely on a picture & a description<g>.
After waiting two weeks for someone to get back to me I got impatient and queried them. This was their response.
Dear Dutch, I'm sorry for the delay - Ryan didn't let you know that we've contacted the manufacturer. We're waiting to hear back from them, as we do not have the facilities to test their claims. Thanks for your patience! Kind regards, Addie --- Addie Morstad Customer Support Director Sent 5-21-07
I've noticed many post about different small gear suppliers that the customer service is not the best. I would say BPL falls under this catagory. I don't think they realize the liability of advertizing load limits. What if i was using their product to lift 700 lbs. It broke at the weight every time. 700 pounds of falling anything is a lawsiut waiting to happen. I doubled up my cord and I'm going to be returning their overpriced twine. I really caution anyone using this cord to not count on it lifting over 550 pounds. This stuff doesn't live up to its claims. 1100 pound rating is really such a stretch (pun intended). I would like to see anyone that can lift anything over 600 pounds, because it just can't be done. Well I still have the spectra cord I cut off my UBLA.
Peace Dutch
warbonnetguy
05-24-2007, 19:03
any knott even a larks head aka girth hitch reduces the tensile strength by around 50%. so the listed tensile strength was probably about right. if you do a search, you can find lots of cool info about the breaking strengths of webbing and cord made with different types of fiber and which knots reduce the tensile strength by what percent. there are people out there who have done some pretty scientific experiments in this field. if you have any technical questions contact Black Diamond who makes climbing gear in SLC, UT. they have an in house testing facility and are always breaking stuff. as for the spectra not breaking at the knot, i would agree that is kinda weird, but at td, someone ran into ed's new tarp that he had left up while he went to dinner, and the same thing happened, broke about 1-2 inches away from the knot, which is supposed to be the weak spot. As for BPL, their spectra twine is way overpriced compared to most other places online. i know you can get it real cheap at apsltd.com, but you might have to get it by the spool. but you should be able to get it somewhere else way cheaper than BPL. in case anyone is wondering, i use vectrus 12 by Yale ropes (1/8" 2000 lbs tensile strength), which is available from apsltd.com by the foot, and i must say that they have the most extensive selection of lines and twines that i know of...Brandon
warbonnetguy
05-24-2007, 19:21
also, when it broke at the knott, i'm guessing that it broke at the knott you used to tie a fixed loop in the rope with, such as an overhand knott on a bight or a fig. 8 on a bight. i'm guessing that it was this knott that broke and not actually the lark's head itself. am i right? also, it might be interesting to note that i was able to break the bpl 600-700 ish lbs spectra at the knott by bouncing moderatly heavily (on purpose) in my hammock. i weigh 160 lbs...Brandon
in case anyone is wondering, i use vectrus 12 by Yale ropes (1/8" 2000 lbs tensile strength), which is available from apsltd.com by the foot, and i must say that they have the most extensive selection of lines and twines that i know of...Brandon
What are your thoughts on the 1/8" vectrus 12 versus the 1/8" amsteel 12?
(both on this page: http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d3000/e827.asp)
Also, how is the abrasion resistance and "knotability" of these non-jacketed lines?
warbonnetguy
05-25-2007, 18:10
teir site is having problems, i believe the amsteel is spectra, the vectrus 12 is vectran. the weights and strengths are about identical from what i recall, i chose the vectran b/c it isn't supposed to creep like spectra (strech slowly through the night) i didn't know about the uncovered cord at first, but the vectrus 12 seems to have pretty good abrasion restiance. it seems a little slick like spectra, but i tie a single sheetbend finished with a bight, this will slip, so i tighten the bight as if to pop it out, and just before it pops, put a second bight of slack through the first bight, cinch the first bight down on the second one to finish. two pulls and the bights pop and the knott falls apart.
i used to use the covered vectran (crystaline) but the 3mm has a loose cover which was kind of a pain. + the 3mm vectrus 12 is stronger and lighter...Brandon
What are your thoughts on the 1/8" vectrus 12 versus the 1/8" amsteel 12?
(both on this page: http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d3000/e827.asp)
Also, how is the abrasion resistance and "knotability" of these non-jacketed lines?
warbonnetguy
05-25-2007, 18:20
yeah, thats specifically the 3mm crystaline they are talking about, is that the stuff you had? the 2mm is nice and stiff, but on the 3mm, they don't make a cover for it, they just use their 4mm cover and as a result the cord handles completely different. if the rope gets twisted and begins to twist back on itself, the loose cover will open up a bit and the twisted part will poke through. i don't think the problem would cause the line to be any weaker though. you can actually fix it by pulling it through your hands real hard from end to end, but that is why i switched to the uncovered single braid vectran which i think performs awsome...Brandon
I had to recently return the 1/8" Vectrus to APS - they are having a LOT of problems with the Vetran kinking under the covering and then rupturing through. They thought that Yale had fixed the problem, but I don't think so from my experience with the "fixed" line.
warbonnetguy
05-25-2007, 19:41
to keep the ends from fraying, i have been forcing them to fray about 1/4"-3/8" and then taking a dab of silicone caulk/glue and squishing it into the core of the line and then just roll the fray back together. the silicone works great, remains flexible and seems permanent.
as for the prussics, i use #18 braided nylon construction/mason line. this works the best because it is a much smaller diameter and is very loose (not stiff) i just use an extra wrap or two and just give it a tug to tighten it before hooking something up. i looked at both the spyderline and the samson, but i think they were both heavier than the vectran, and the no creep factor of vectran are what did it for me. speaking of, can you notice the creep on your spectra/dyneema lines? and do you think the single braid spectra absorbs less water?
also did you read on their website about the new spectra that is streached under heat. it makes it considerably stronger withoud adding wt. and gets rid of most of the creep. i think it was only available in large diameter last time i checked...Brandon
You must be able to pull a lot harder than I could - once it ruptured, that was it.
I decided to switch instead to the Spyderline for the suspension.
I have the APS 1/8" AS-78 Samson. 100% Dyneema SK-78 single braid and rated at 2,900 lbs. Testing that for various things right now. If I decide I like it, I might replace the Spyderline with it.
Decided I didn't like Vectran. Impossible to heat seal the ends. The Vectran just burns, won't heat seal. The only good and convenient way I could find to whip the ends is to use heat shrink tubing: place a small drop of cyanoacrylate ( super glue - I like Goat Tuff better ) near the end, slide the tubing over and use a heat gun to shrink. The heat cures the glue fast and the glue makes it impossible to remove the heat shrink tubing. Makes nice clean whipping. Makes it a real pain to use the Vectrus 12 since without whipping the end, the ribbons comprising the weave of the single braid unravel easily. Also, I've found that the Vectrus 12 holds water in the weave and takes a long time to dry and that then has affected the coating, turning it from the deep green I got to a green/white color. Also, the coating on the Vectrus 12 single braids make it difficult/impossible to find a cord for Prussiks knots that doesn't slide like crazy on it. I like the low/no creep property, but not too sure that would over-ride what I didn't like.
warbonnetguy
05-26-2007, 12:29
i checked their site, that AS-78 was not there the last time i ordered. it is way stronger for the same diameter, although the weight is only given for the larger diameters, they are all stronger and lighter than the vectran. have you weighed it? i think i'm going to order some and try it out too...Brandon
[QUOTE=TeeDee;16993
I have the APS 1/8" AS-78 Samson. 100% Dyneema SK-78 single braid and rated at 2,900 lbs. Testing that for various things right now. If I decide I like it, I might replace the Spyderline with it.
as for the prussics, i use #18 braided nylon construction/mason line. this works the best because it is a much smaller diameter and is very loose (not stiff) i just use an extra wrap or two and just give it a tug to tighten it before hooking something up.
Yes - that probably works. Have you tested under heavy load - something on the order of twice your weight? That gives a factor of your weight as a safety factor. Does the mason line list a rating - I rather doubt it, since that wouldn't be a factor for that use. For my intended use I wouldn't want to use anything rated less than at least 400 lbs. I find the BPL guyline expensive, but the rating is where I want it. Only problem is it is coated also and so with another coated line, the Prussik can slip under moderate to heavy load.
i looked at both the spyderline and the samson, but i think they were both heavier than the vectran,
The weights listed by APS for the Spyderline is so close to the Vectrus 12 that any difference wouldn't be noticed. The AS-78 is listed as much lighter than the Vectrus 12 for those for which weights are listed - so I assume the 1/8" is much lighter also.
can you notice the creep on your spectra/dyneema lines? and do you think the single braid spectra absorbs less water?
I haven't noticed any creep - but I haven't done any measurements either. From my observations I haven't seen any water absorption by the double or single braid spectra lines that I have. The water runs off and doesn't hold in the weave.
also did you read on their website about the new spectra that is streached under heat. it makes it considerably stronger withoud adding wt. and gets rid of most of the creep. i think it was only available in large diameter last time i checked...Brandon
Yeah that stuff is very interesting - the creep has been stretched out already. If they had it in 1/8" I'd buy about 50' to experiment with.
Also, the Paraloc stuff is interesting, but the ratings are kind of low for dyneema.
slowhike
05-26-2007, 16:20
BPL.com can do some pretty thorough testing when they get onto a project. this would be a great test to do if they could be convinced to do it... testing the actual breaking points of a number of different cords, using different attachment methods & knots.
warbonnetguy
05-26-2007, 18:12
what are you putting such heavy loads on the pruissiks for?, i just use them to tighten my tarps riggeline just like a hh. and the mason's line is about equal in strength to a mammut accessory cord i bought that was rated to about 125 lbs.
Yes - that probably works. Have you tested under heavy load - something on the order of twice your weight? That gives a factor of your weight as a safety factor. Does the mason line list a rating - I rather doubt it, since that wouldn't be a factor for that use. For my intended use I wouldn't want to use anything rated less than at least 400 lbs. I find the BPL guyline expensive, but the rating is where I want it. Only problem is it is coated also and so with another coated line, the Prussik can slip under moderate to heavy load.
The weights listed by APS for the Spyderline is so close to the Vectrus 12 that any difference wouldn't be noticed. The AS-78 is listed as much lighter than the Vectrus 12 for those for which weights are listed - so I assume the 1/8" is much lighter also.
I haven't noticed any creep - but I haven't done any measurements either. From my observations I haven't seen any water absorption by the double or single braid spectra lines that I have. The water runs off and doesn't hold in the weave.
Yeah that stuff is very interesting - the creep has been stretched out already. If they had it in 1/8" I'd buy about 50' to experiment with.
Also, the Paraloc stuff is interesting, but the ratings are kind of low for dyneema.
what are you putting such heavy loads on the pruissiks for?, i just use them to tighten my tarps riggeline just like a hh. and the mason's line is about equal in strength to a mammut accessory cord i bought that was rated to about 125 lbs.
Prussiks have a lot of uses such as ascending a rope - as such each one has to hold your weight plus whatever gear you are carrying. For use around camp they can be used for a lot more than securing shock cords to the hammock suspension. One use is for pulling a rope over an overhead. Pulling the rope with your bare hands can be painful and cause injury for a heavy load. Use 2 Prussik loops and then use a Larks head to secure good sized sticks, say 1/4" to 1/2" diameter and a little longer than the width of your hand, to the Prussik loops. The sticks work as handles to pull the rope. By alternately pulling and moving the loops you can pull very heavy loads with no damage to your hands.
Prussik loops are really very useful.
any knott even a larks head aka girth hitch reduces the tensile strength by around 50%. so the listed tensile strength was probably about right. if you do a search, you can find lots of cool info about the breaking strengths of webbing and cord made with different types of fiber and which knots reduce the tensile strength by what percent
I did as Hammock Engineer suggested and wrapped the rope around itself many times to eliminate the knot from the equation. It still broke lifting 650 pounds. Didn't even get it off the ground. My main beef isn't the rope though, they don't make the rope. It is the complete and utter lack of customer service. Every time I sent them an e-mail they wouldn't respond until I contacted them again. I've seen other post about small specialized suppliers that just have no customer service. I guess if you want something done right anymore you have to get it done in China.
Peace Dutch
Did you use a new piece of rope for this test or had it already been subject to high loads?
Did you use a new piece of rope for this test or had it already been subject to high loads?
The test that was wrapped around itself and still broke was a fresh rope. But even if it wasn't I should be able to lift 700 pounds repeatedly with 1100 pound test rope.
I'd be interested in knowing the real limits, but we can probably assume from these tests that it's probably around 500lbs. I've never purchased this cord as it seems very expensive (like everything else BPL sells), but I'd given it seriously consideration before due to its size, weight, and supposed strength. After these tests, it's unreasonable to find more ways to keep the cord from breaking, as a load rating of 1100lbs would imply some safety factor. If the cord breaks repeatedly at 650lbs, there's no excuse that can be made for it. Knots aren't the problem, especially if the rope breaks outside the knot. The cord is the problem. I'm not saying that the cord is useless, since cord that small shouldn't be reasonably expected to hold a thousand pounds, but there is certainly a problem if the product has a load rating which is twice its actual strength and the price reflects this false claim. These casual tests make the price seem even more of a travesty. I will mention that BPL staff themselves use these "AirCore" cords in the field and seem very happy with their performance, but I guess they've never done any strength tests other than bear-hanging and tarp tie-downs. Too bad.
My own past experiences with BPL's customer service were great, but my last need for service was a few years ago when they were smaller (they'd just opened, in fact). They've grown a lot since then and perhaps haven't been able to keep up. I will mention that I just received an e-mail announcing that they now have a toll-free order and support number. I don't know if this implies anything at all about their support staff, though. The number is only for members at present, but they plan to make it public soon.
OT: I actually like BPL for some things, but I do grimmace when a business calls it's subscribers "Premium" members. Who are the non-premium members, I wonder? Can I be one of those and pay less? :) I must be an awesome guy, because all my credit card companies always tell me I'm one of their "most valued customers" and BPL calls me a "Premium" member.
headchange4u
06-06-2007, 13:44
Hey kank,
Welcome to the forums. I just noticed you are from Winchester. Howdy neighbor!;) :D
My own past experiences with BPL's customer service were great, but my last need for service was a few years ago when they were smaller (they'd just opened, in fact). They've grown a lot since then and perhaps haven't been able to keep up. I will mention that I just received an e-mail announcing that they now have a toll-free order and support number. I don't know if this implies anything at all about their support staff, though. The number is only for members at present, but they plan to make it public soon.
I e-mailed BPL last week and blasted them because they would not get back to me time and time again. They apologized and said they were waiting to here back from the manufacturer via their distributor. (I now know why they are so expensive.) I was kind of harsh in my e-mail and they said I can keep the cord and they will refund my money and I can keep the cord. Then......they never got back to me :mad: again. I am giving them some more time, but I am really fed up with their customer service. They should have had this cord tested at an independent lab before they sold it. Now that they know there is a problem they should stop selling it until they can confirm no one will be injured by their product. Most importantly they should return e-mails of customer questions and complaints.
Hangers be weary of using this cord for main support. I tried to build to 1000 pound test and believed the stated ratings. I doubled up mine until I can frind a replacement. I will probably look into some of the suggestions from this post.
Peace Dutch
GA>ME '03
warbonnetguy
06-06-2007, 17:29
hey dutch, if you want to look for some new anchor rope, check out www.apsltd.com. they have the biggest selection that i have found...Brandon
I e-mailed BPL last week and blasted them because they would not get back to me time and time again. They apologized and said they were waiting to here back from the manufacturer via their distributor. (I now know why they are so expensive.) I was kind of harsh in my e-mail and they said I can keep the cord and they will refund my money and I can keep the cord. Then......they never got back to me :mad: again. I am giving them some more time, but I am really fed up with their customer service. They should have had this cord tested at an independent lab before they sold it. Now that they know there is a problem they should stop selling it until they can confirm no one will be injured by their product. Most importantly they should return e-mails of customer questions and complaints.
Hangers be weary of using this cord for main support. I tried to build to 1000 pound test and believed the stated ratings. I doubled up mine until I can frind a replacement. I will probably look into some of the suggestions from this post.
Peace Dutch
GA>ME '03
Thanks warbonnetguy, I checked them out and they do have a large selection.
Peace Dutch
Bug-Bait
06-07-2007, 10:47
hey dutch, if you want to look for some new anchor rope, check out www.apsltd.com. they have the biggest selection that i have found...Brandon
Hey Brandon,
What of APL's would you recommend for a ridgeline? I weigh 210 and it will be going on a Speer type hammock.
Thanks,
Michael
Hey Brandon,
What of APL's would you recommend for a ridgeline? I weigh 210 and it will be going on a Speer type hammock.
Thanks,
Michael
To answer that question you are going to have to determine how you hang the hammock with a ridgeline, how much sag you want in the hammock, how tight you pull the suspension when hanging. You can get an idea of the force on the ridgeline from the equation posted on this thread (http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1213&page=7).
scan down and you will find the equation for the force knowing the angles.
How much sag in the hammock do you like? If you have tested a HH ULBA, then that is about 30 deg. Do you like more or less sag?
When hanging with a structural ridgeline, do you pull the suspension real tight or leave real loose?
Once you have thought about those questions, then someone can compute the forces for you and recommend a rating for the ridgeline cord. Until then, any recommendation would really be a shot in the dark and to be safe they would have to recommend a high rating that may be much higher than you really need.
I use on my ridgeline on the hammock that I like a sag angle of about 60 deg, a cord rated at 1000 lbf - the 3/32" Crystalyne, green. You can easily use that cord for your ridge line. 3/32" is the smallest you are going to get from Annapolis Performance Sailing and the Crystalyne is a good price. If you want to use something smaller, then the BPL dyneema guyline cord would be good for a rating at 563 lbf (but there seems to be a question about the real rating of the BPL stuff). But before you use the BPL guy line cord, think about those angles and make a stab at computing some forces to satisfy yourself.
NCPatrick
06-07-2007, 14:31
I like the 1.8 mm Spyderline (http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d279000/e276768.asp)for a ridgeline. Just my personal preference though. You could also use the 2.8mm.
Just my .02.