Primaloft and Quilting

[theclark5]

I am thinking of trying to make a Primaloft Underquilt.

What are other members satisfaction with Primaloft vs down?
How do you actually quilt the primaloft?

[Speedogomer]

For synthetics, most people will just recommend Apex Climashield. It requires no quilting and from what I hear packs the same as primaloft. There's a reason almost every cottage makers who make synthetic quilts, use Apex.

[theclark5]

I have made several out of climashield. Very bulky compared to down. Was hoping primaloft would provide better warmth and less bulk

[sunsetkayaker]

I used primaloft and LOVE it compared to climashield (I see climashield for the first one which I use at home but never pack because it is too bulky) I used 2 layers of Primaloft (not sure what thickness now). I quilted each layer to one of the outside layers of fabric. I used newspaper on the seam to add stiffness when sewing so the materials wouldn't bunch up. After the seam is sewn you can pull off the newspaper at the seam where it is perforated. After I put the Primaloft on the shell material I sewed the edges together inside out all except for about one foot. Then turned it right side out and sewed the last foot. I then tied the two shells together with knots so that it would stay flat together (I am not sure this step is necessary, but I liked it better that way) Anyway, I did it this way so the quilting was not through the whole quilt making cold spots and it worked for me.

I know some outfitters are not carrying climashield anymore because it is just tooooo bulky and there are better materials out there. PS you do need down proof material for Primaloft.

Primaloft is preferred over down when wet. It will actually keep you warm while it is wet and dries faster.

[Caminante]

I'd like to follow this conversation. When I looked into it, the general consensus was that CS was a better quilt material than PL because it stood up to being stuffed better. Not more compact, but the fibers would be less likely to breakdown. I've been very happy with the CS quilts that I've made, but my REI PL jacket has a much better feel and I think that a PL quilt would be more comfortable than CS, but I'm concerned about the durability (and the quilting seems like a PITA).

[Speedogomer]

As far as I've seen, there are no cottage makers using primaloft over Climashield.

The only manufacturer (that ive seen) that uses primaloft for underquilts is ENO.

[punkisdead]

I don't remember where I read it, but I thought I read somewhere that Climashield will breathe better than Primaloft.

[Just Bill]

I am thinking of trying to make a Primaloft Underquilt.

What are other members satisfaction with Primaloft vs down?
How do you actually quilt the primaloft?


1- I am so satisfied with it that I plan to go into production with it (start a gear business).
2- :jj:trade secret

That said:
It's taken me a good few years (and a good 15k) to develop a way to produce it commercially for a quilt. I have almost been in production twice now. One cottage vendor was hired and failed. One commercial contactor was almost hired, but had to pass on the work to take a contract for a very big boy... but they did do great work and proved it was possible to produce. I am currently seeking a third or going to produce them myself.

It's obviously harder to work with than APEX and requires a combination of techniques to stabilize it in a quilt. However there are folks here like WV who have been using it for some time and there are a few things that are not "secret" that I'm happy to share as this community as a whole has been a big help to me in this process. Like anyone, I want to be able to sell my hard work, but I also want to participate as generously as possible with the community here.

To be perfectly clear- the only product worth talking about is Primaloft Gold, not silver, black or any other flavor.
The CLO (thermal resistance) of the other products does not justify the added trouble versus Apex. It is only recently that PLG gained this advantage on Apex, Apex is still superior to the other flavors in my opinion.
PLG is .92 CLO/SqYd, Apex is .82. Primaloft Silver is back to roughly the same rating as Apex, so not much advantage.

For MYOG, what this means is that you need a 3.6 Apex to match the rating of a 3.0 PLG to achieve roughly a 45* rating.

What you find in high end clothing is 60gsm (2 oz per SqYd) Primaloft Gold.
The Patagonia Nano Puff is the classic example of this, and use, abuse and total destruction of this jacket in personal use is what got me started on the path to making the product work in quilts.

However-
2oz PLG requires quilting roughly 3" OC- the classic "brick" pattern. http://www.patagonia.com/shop/nano-puff
3 oz and up- you can increase the quilting spacing to 6" OC. Unlike Apex, this is not "optional".

Keep in mind APEX is supposed to be quilted 24" OC. Now just because nobody does it, doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. The choice to skip the quilting does save greatly on time and labor costs for a vendor, at the expense of long term durability. I don't mean to imply anything sinister; it's just a tradeoff that we all accept as a group. We all know that Apex does not last as long as down, but it is half the cost and/or much easier to use for MYOG folks.

In theory, Apex is stronger. However if you properly quilt PLG to stabilize it... I believe it is a superior insulation.
Further; I believe at summer weights (45*) and up; that it can rival down in terms of pack ability, performance, and even weight. I have produced quilts and even an underquilt that can match or beat the 850 fill downs... the "switch point" is roughly 35* or so when the advantage changes back to down. This isn't magic; it's simply construction techniques and differences. Down requires baffles, which have a weight and cost.
You can read more at this recent thread from WB where we discuss this in more detail. http://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/120254-Pack-Sized-of-Climashield-summer-quilt

Quilting
I have developed three different methods for quilting PLG.
There are two simple reasons that you don't see PLG quilts:
1-Down is perceived to be better than synthetic- no if's ands or butts- by consumers. The general reason to buy synthetics is cost; so if you are operating on this model- Apex is the cheapest synthetic to produce.
2-Properly constructing a PLG quilt (much larger piece than a garment) is on par with the labor of making a down piece; so again, what is the incentive?

For a MYOG person;
Labor isn't really a factor. Cost may be, as is the hassle of working with down on a small scale.
That said; if you plan to do anything past a 32* or so quilt, don't bother. Take the time and build a quality down piece.
If you wish to reduce bulk, then a PLG MYOG piece may be worth your trouble. You will likely not make any huge strides in weight vs Apex.
In a typical project of roughly 3 yards... 3.6 Apex vs 3.0 PLG would save you (.6oz x 3yds)- 1.8 ounces.

One problem- The only quilting technique I am willing to share is to do a simple single side quilt using the scrim fabric provided with the insulation.
without specialized equipment and/or a million pins it's tough to do it properly any other way.
The scrim itself weighs about .5 oz/yd- so there goes your weight advantage and you are ONLY saving bulk.

So, if you still want to go to all the trouble:
YES- you do need a downproof shell material. I use Membrane 10 from RBTR.
It's pretty simple, just tedious; take one shell, one batt of 3 oz PLG, and leave the scrim on to the outside. (placing scrim or shell up/down depends on your machine and your skill)
Quilt via straight stitch 6" OC across the width of the fabric. (Yes-pushing/compromising with the specs slightly but much less than we all do with Apex)

I would suggest you cut this bigger than needed and trim to final dimensions once you are finished quilting- this stuff moves! Be prepared to fail or have some bunching in spots.
In this application I feel pretty decent (with a good bit of field testing) to call that a 50* layer.
If you wanted to double this up (quilt both sides) then you would be at 30*.

You can then launder the gear, though like any sleeping gear I would be gentle and avoid over laundering it.
You can pack it much smaller than Apex without damage, but like any synthetic, loose packed is ideal.

Limitations?
That is as far as I would go. I know that many here like to pile on the synthetics- but past 30* you are wasting your time and should simply bite the bullet and learn to make a down piece. There are other problems that arise with using batt thicknesses beyond 3 ounce (for PLG and Apex) that I will not go into- you just have to take my word for it.

If you are buying gear; if you're looking to save a buck and will be car camping or hauling a pulk- then the bulk monster isn't that big of a deal with something like APEX.
Synthetics can be used in cold temps, but if you are truly going to use the gear at some point it's worth the investment of down.

If you are making gear; it's worth learning how to make down gear for temps much past 30* if you plan to use it more than a few times a year.
As mentioned- much past a double layer of 3.0 is not worth it. There are a few areas where 4.0 oz can be used, but I can't really get into that.:cool:

Finally- this is new territory. The longest single quilt I have in use is 150 nights over two years. I have roughly 12 testers who have used the gear, including one recent HF member addition who is testing an UQ. All told, at best, there is 200-300 nights of use with my gear. I would like to believe that I have sorted this out, but quite simply can't make that statement honestly. I am a spec and lab geek- but what really counts is time in the field and user reports. Until enough folks take the plunge and report back- we're on our own.

Side note-
However- quilt stacking is an exciting topic worth looking into. http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/115410-Quilt-stacking-from-Enlightened-Equipment-article-and-talks
What does make sense for occasional use or budget considerations is to own a 50*, and a 30* synthetic. These can be stacked to create a 10* piece of gear when used in combination.
This "buy two, get one free" feature is not limited to synthetics but it becomes a more realistic combo to pack two PLG quilts for winter time.
I have brought this system out to the I&M canal hangs here in Illinois as well as a good few months of outdoor testing and can confirm that it works fine and dandy.

Obviously, if money was no object, it makes sense to own a properly rated piece for each type of trip(season) you plan to camp in... but back in reality land- most folks spend less than 10 nights a year in winter conditions so being able to own a summer and shoulder quilt and "make it work" for that odd winter trip is a big bonus and I think would let more folks give winter camping a shot.


If you want to read more and find some more general info- here is another thread at WB with huge credit going to Enlightened Equipment for the source article.
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/113531-Town-s-End-Update-advice-questions

[Just Bill]

As far as I've seen, there are no cottage makers using primaloft over Climashield.

The only manufacturer (that ive seen) that uses primaloft for underquilts is ENO.
https://www.eaglesnestoutfittersinc.com/pdf/Insulation_Comparison_chart.pdf

Synergy is Primaloft's version of Apex (produced by Climbashield).
Primaloft and Climbashield are the two main producers- from there they sell different products so much like fabric- it gets confusing.

I'll leave that to Arrowhead or another to comment on exact details- but I believe Apex is still superior when it comes to continuous filament synthetic.

Primaloft Gold is short staple fill- hence all the quilting- and a different animal.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no one commercially producing Primaloft Gold sleeping gear.

[theclark5]

Thanks for the detailed info! I appreciate the comments from all. I have made several quilts from Climashield and granted it is a very easy material to work with. I wonder if that is a primary reason for it's popularity with cottage vendors. That and its cost and frankly it does a good job of insulating. Again the bulk and weight is my primary reason for asking about the primaloft. Appreciate more comments from those who have used Primaloft Gold.

[Gsx-rboy750]

Primaloft UQ and TQ here. I used almost no quilting on the UQ and have no problem. My TQ has absolutly none and I see little to no migration. I did tac the material with a industerial spray adhesive.
I have used down for years and probably wont be going back.
The loft is bot as much but I would argue it is warmer then down due to not soaking moisture, not bunching and not leaving the quilt due to holes.
I run stuff pretty hard and like it over down.

[theclark5]

\ I did tac the material with a industerial spray adhesive.
\

Nice out of the box thinking. Anyone else try this? Has it worked well?

[Just Bill]

I believe there were some folks at BPL doing that as well.

It's much tougher than folks think- and if you don't put it in the wash- or hand wash gently It can hold up much longer than you would think.

[Gsx-rboy750]

I believe there were some folks at BPL doing that as well.

It's much tougher than folks think- and if you don't put it in the wash- or hand wash gently It can hold up much longer than you would think.
This.
I am honestly not that gentle and for a TQ and UQ for 120$ that weight maybe 3 lbs together cant got wrong.
I try to never wash my down cause it is never the same.

[theclark5]

Why not just use the 6oz PL gold instead of 2 layers of 3oz? Is it harder to work with? Can't be worse than the 7.5oz climashied. Or is it to minimize compression at the sewing(quilting) line and staggering 2 layers helps?

[ColoGator]

Bumping this... I recently bought a jacket with Primaloft Gold.

I wish there were some Primaloft Gold quilts available!

[Scotty Von Porkchop]

I built a hybrid down-primaloft quilt a couple of years ago with a 12" section of 60g primaloft gold down the sides with 4"x2" boxes that's held up great after loads of rough use, staying packed tight for days and lots of washes. I really think that primaloft is generally a better bet than climashield on a top quilt due to the warmth to weight, better compression and how much better it drapes. Climashield is tougher and much easier to make though and still would make UQs in climashield