Insultex between layers of WBBB [Archive] - Hammock Forums - Hammocks and hammock camping

Harpo63

01-12-2010, 07:45

Can't seem to find the recent threads on this topic, so here is the update on trying layers of insultex placed between the layers of the BB dbl.

First test, a single layer of IX did not keep me warm at all. Tried 3 layers as suggested last night- it was a wee bit warmer, but still ended up with a chilly backside.

I've concluded that you really need a little more airspace with IX- Thats why it seems to work best as an UQ. However, I have a old DYI fleece sleeping bag (top folds over and snaps- no zippers) with a waterproof nylon back. Its pretty thick and the nylon is stiff enough that the whole thing keeps its shape and could work well in this situation between layers of the double. Ill try that and add insultex. Probably dont need the insultex as the fleece is plenty warm, but could increase warmth if it was cooler out... Granted that set up will only be for car/backyard camping due to its bulkiness and weight... (Unless Arlo and Spike pack it for ya on the trail!)

oldgringo

01-12-2010, 07:58

This is exactly the application I have in mind for IX...I'll be watching with interest, and thanks for your testing/reporting.

SoCal

01-23-2010, 09:28

That insultex seems a bit overated. -20 degrees for one layer probably isn't very realistic. But I've read that divers liked it under neoprene suits. Anyone knows how it compares to thinsulate?

PKT

01-23-2010, 10:49

Harp063
I've purchased some Wallymart Fleece and ripstop, my thought was to sandwich
these materials in the hope of highlighting the insultex properties.
Oldgringo you too?

Harpo63

01-23-2010, 10:57

I recently tried placing my thick fleece rectancular sleeping bag (no zippers) in between the layers of the dbl BB. It will need to be custom cut because as thick as it is, it still shifted around too much. My thought along this line of thought is UQ with a side opening in which you can add layers of insultex as needed dictated by how cold it is. Attach the UQ on the outside like all the other UQs. This way you can make the UQ out of fleece to give it the airspace it needs to breathe if you want. Naturally, this would be more for home/cabin/car camp use.

salmonofdoubt

01-23-2010, 11:02

Harp063
I've purchased some Wallymart Fleece and ripstop, my thought was to sandwich
these materials in the hope of highlighting the insultex properties.

I've done the same, but I'll be using the fleece for the liner of an IX vest. When I make my quilts I'll be using 2.5 oz Climashield on the inside. IX seems to do best when it can work with a captive air-gap and something with a little loft to seal against irregular surfaces, since the IX itself doesn't drape or compress well.

MacEntyre

01-23-2010, 11:12

I think the key is to treat it as though it can be compressed. When it is tight against you, it does not insulate as well. The best performance I've gotten from it is when it is used as a layer in an UQ with down or Climashield.

oldgringo

01-23-2010, 17:30

Harp063
I've purchased some Wallymart Fleece and ripstop, my thought was to sandwich
these materials in the hope of highlighting the insultex properties.
Oldgringo you too?

Something like that.

What I have in mind is a sort of "blanket" to place between the layers of my Traveller, to use instead of a pad. I'm imagining something that is more conforming than a pad. Pads, to me, compromise the essential properties of a hammock, resulting in a less comfortable experience.

This hasn't gelled yet...I just got my IX today. Still need to fondle it, and cogitate.

Suggestions, anyone?

MacEntyre

01-23-2010, 17:45

Suggestions, anyone?
Why not, instead of fleece, get some of the Warm Company synthetic insulation... comes in a package already cut to size, only about an inch thick.

That way, you will have a lighter blanket, with better insulation, which will do more for you under your hammock or on top.

oldgringo

01-23-2010, 18:53

Why not, instead of fleece, get some of the Warm Company synthetic insulation... comes in a package already cut to size, only about an inch thick.

That way, you will have a lighter blanket, with better insulation, which will do more for you under your hammock or on top.

Are you saying instead of or in concert with the IX?

For anything to work like I want it to, it must drape nicely, and resist compression. Like fleece, or a wool blanket (two things I've been considering using to sandwich the IX.)

MacEntyre

01-23-2010, 19:34

Are you saying instead of or in concert with the IX?
Sorry, I meant instead of fleece, in concert with IX.

For anything to work like I want it to, it must drape nicely, and resist compression. Like fleece, or a wool blanket (two things I've been considering using to sandwich the IX.)
Gotcha! Resist compression... tough to do with a lightweight insulation. Now I understand why you want to use wool or fleece.

Why must it resist compression to work like you want?

chezrad

01-23-2010, 19:56

I imagine it's tp ensure a consistent air gap.

oldgringo

01-23-2010, 20:15

Sorry, I meant instead of fleece, in concert with IX.

Gotcha! Resist compression... tough to do with a lightweight insulation. Now I understand why you want to use wool or fleece.

Why must it resist compression to work like you want?

I'm working on the assumption that compressed insulation is compromised insulation.

MacEntyre

01-24-2010, 08:24

I'm working on the assumption that compressed insulation is compromised insulation.
Of course, but you expect the insulation to resist compression... because it's a topquilt?

oldgringo

01-24-2010, 08:32

Of course, but you expect the insulation to resist compression... because it's a topquilt?

No, it's going to go between the layers of a traveller, or possibly under a SB in a single layer hammock.

That's the challenge: to come up with something that approaches ccf in performance, without giving up the comfort that makes me a hanger in the first place. I love the way my hammocks wrap around and cradle me...the temptation is to call it womb-like, but I cannot tell a lie: I don't remember that far back.

It may not be doable, but I'm going to play with it.

GrizzlyAdams

01-24-2010, 08:51

What I have in mind is a sort of "blanket" to place between the layers of my Traveller, to use instead of a pad. I'm imagining something that is more conforming than a pad. Pads, to me, compromise the essential properties of a hammock, resulting in a less comfortable experience.

This hasn't gelled yet...I just got my IX today. Still need to fondle it, and cogitate.

Suggestions, anyone?
If the idea is that by sandwiching the Insultex between materials that individual do not compress much so as to keep Insultex from compressing, my instincts on that are that won't work instead of a pad. The compression-resistant material will happily pass along your weight force through the Insultex, the counter-opposing force of the hammock holding you up passes through the other compression-resistant material, ya got two opposing forces coming at Insultex, squish.

I did experiments with the Insultex poncho as an UQ shortly after TeeDee flagged that thing as interesting. As others have rediscovered, the IX is highly compressable, and I got cold spots wherever I had compression points.

What might work for Insultex in an UQ is to stick something between it and the hammock body that better adapts to the
various contours, maybe that's down with the IX being on the outside, maybe its synthethic. Probably need to have the piece next to the hammock be a vapor barrier. I've not been tracking the Insultex chatter so all of this has likely been said and maybe done before. I lost my interest in it when it didn't pan out as a dual-use poncho/UQ.

oldgringo

01-24-2010, 09:02

As others have rediscovered, the IX is highly compressable, and I got cold spots wherever I had compression points.

Okay, I'm hearing two different things here.

http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=12643&highlight=Insultex+compressable

:confused::confused::confused:

MacEntyre

01-24-2010, 09:03

...IX is highly compressable...
Interesting... I have not used it in a way that compressed it 'locally', over a small area. I have called it incompressible because it feels like it doesn't compress when you pack it.

MrPrez had a similar report, that it performed poorly underneath, with cold spots.

Your description makes sense, though, when you figure that the best use of it that I've found was on the outside of my PeaPod. No compression of the IX, but a tight fit.

Harpo63

01-24-2010, 09:05

I agree Grizz. By playing around with material inside the hammock layers, it just confirmed what Mac experimented with. it will need to be either on top or under the hammock with airspace for it to work as intended. I noticed that Duluth Trading Co. has a new insultex jacket out- it uses a thin piece of 80 gram poly insulation next to the IX and provides loft in between layers. Fleece might work if it has alot of air space- like berber fleece instead of microfleece.

oldgringo

01-24-2010, 13:56

So...IX between the hammock and the hammocker is a bad idea, then?

Harpo63

01-24-2010, 14:15

So...IX between the hammock and the hammocker is a bad idea, then?

Yup. I tried one to three layers of IX between me and the hammock- still got cold as if there was nothing there. Its not like sleeping on a space blanket where you definitely will be warm

MacEntyre

01-24-2010, 19:06

So...IX between the hammock and the hammocker is a bad idea, then?
Sounds like it...

I have used an IX/Lamilite pad under my legs inside the hammock with good results. I've also used that same pad to sit upon an ice covered, upside down bucket in a deer stand, with good results.

MacEntyre

01-25-2010, 08:06

I think IX is polyethylene. If you google 'polyethylene sheet' you find that low density polyethylene is described as "closed cell, compressible polyehtylene."

NotToWorry

01-25-2010, 15:17

angrysparrow

01-25-2010, 15:18

Come to the Mt Rogers hangout this weekend and see IX in person, Ed!

NotToWorry

01-25-2010, 15:35

Come to the Mt Rogers hangout this weekend and see IX in person, Ed!

I'd love too! Now if I could just get someone to run my company for a few days. It wasn't suppose to be this way---I was suppose to be the one out doing field tests!

Afraid I'll miss the field tests---but looking forward to the follow up discussions here.

Stay warm up there

MacEntyre

01-25-2010, 15:40

IX looks surprizingly like the 'packaging insulation', wrapping or 'sheet stuffing' often used for protecting fragile items during shipping. Is there a major difference?
No. I believe IX is a thin, low density, closed cell polyethylene sheet. It's microperforated, faced with a non-woven on both sides, and quilted.

Has anyone tried packaging insulation instead of IX?
It's hard to find it in large enough quantity to do anything with it.

Do they function the same?
IX is breathable because it is perforated. That's the major difference.

Of course IX is quilted between thin shim layers; but the guts of te stuff look like common plastic packaging material. Any thoughts?
That is why I think it is low density polyethylene, like you find on top of a new VCR when you open the box... they look identical to me.

Ed, I'll send you a yard, if you like.

- MacEntyre

sclittlefield

01-25-2010, 16:02

IX looks surprizingly like the 'packaging insulation', wrapping or 'sheet stuffing' often used for protecting fragile items during shipping. Is there a major difference? Has anyone tried packaging insulation instead of IX? Do they function the same? Of course IX is quilted between thin shim layers; but the guts of te stuff look like common plastic packaging material. Any thoughts?

A long while back I had made something just like this as a hammock pad - to be used inside the hammock, between hammock and hammocker.

It was layered like this, from top to bottom:
-Fleece
-1/16" packing ccf like you mentioned
-space blanket
-1/16" packing ccf
-1.6oz ripstop, uncoated

The 'pad' was 3'x5' and weighed 16oz. Heavy for what it was. Worked well in moderate weather. I sent it along with a friend who did half a thru-hike on the AT this last summer - he said it saved his butt on those cold nights. It was the only underinsulation he had.

Having learned a good bit more since then, I don't think I'd bother making another one. Here's my latest thought on what to build.

A synthetic Climashield UQ with a bottom sleeve to insert a layer(s) of insultex into (making it adaptable to expected temp. range). This should conform to the hammock properly, and maintain that air gap that Insultex needs to perform well. Worth a try, anyway.

MacEntyre

01-25-2010, 16:06

Here's my latest thought on what to build.

A synthetic Climashield UQ with a bottom sleeve to insert a layer(s) of insultex into (making it adaptable to expected temp. range).
Good idea, an UQ with a sleeve, so it can perform just like the insulated sock.

This will conforme to the hammock well, and maintain that air gap that Insultex needs to perform well.
I believe it the conformation, as opposed to the air gap, that is the key. It has to fit well.

hangnout

01-25-2010, 16:21

A synthetic Climashield UQ with a bottom sleeve to insert a layer(s) of insultex into (making it adaptable to expected temp. range). Worth a try, anyway.

By bottom do you mean against hammock or below the climashield? I have some insultex laid out and was on the same track with the climashield. I was planning on the Insultex to the outer cover and the climashield to the inner cover. I was going to make a trapezoid shape to keep it shaped more to hammock.

BTW: Thanks for the quick shipping Mac

MacEntyre

01-25-2010, 16:29

By bottom do you mean ...below the climashield? ...I was planning on the Insultex to the outer cover and the climashield to the inner cover.
I think that is what Scott meant. That's what I would suggest.

BTW: Thanks for the quick shipping Mac
You are entyrely welcome!

- MacEntyre

sclittlefield

01-25-2010, 16:52

I think that is what Scott meant. That's what I would suggest.- MacEntyre

Yup, exactly what I meant. Below the Climashield.

I was thinking of shaping the IX as well. Good plan. I'll try it straight first though.

NotToWorry

01-25-2010, 16:56

That is why I think it is low density polyethylene, like you find on top of a new VCR when you open the box... they look identical to me.

- MacEntyre

Thanks Mac, I have some already. But your answer still leaves me confused. The sheet insulation you find 'on top of a VCR when you open the box' is exactly the packaging stuff I'm talking about--you can buy it in 100-500 ft rolls. Is this the same material as IX but without the scrims? The facing scrims quilted to the IX only add some strength & tear-resistence to the IX--they don't add anything to the insulating properties of the IX.

MacEntyre

01-25-2010, 17:15

...exactly the packaging stuff I'm talking about--you can buy it in 100-500 ft rolls. Is this the same material as IX but without the scrims?
Yes. Without the scrims and without the microperforation. Joe Sr. told me that in addition to the quilting, it is microperforated.

If you want a non-breathable IX type vapor barrier insulation, then such a roll of polyethylene is it!

Probably a lot cheaper, eh?

NotToWorry

01-25-2010, 18:25

Yes. Without the scrims and without the microperforation. Joe Sr. told me that in addition to the quilting, it is microperforated.

If you want a non-breathable IX type vapor barrier insulation, then such a roll of polyethylene is it!

Probably a lot cheaper, eh?

Thanks Mac. Of course the packaging sheet insulation I'm familiar with is a bit thicker than IX, but IX is often used in double & even triple layers, so maybe there's no significant difference there. From my own 'blow test', it seems to me that the breathability of IX is quite low--more than GoreTex but less than SilNyon--it's actually quite close to 1.1 ripstop--so maybe it's the wind-block & low-degree of breathability (or moderate-to-strong vapor barrior) that makes IX warm & suitable for outdoor use. Joe Sr., the manufacturer, made some remarkable warmth claims to me, as I'm sure he has to you as well--most of his claims had to do with active sports, not passive sports like sleeping; which suggests to me that the vapor barrier qualities are critical to it's function. In fact, he indicated that his experience with sleeping bags was dismal; although he didn't say exactly why. I guess I'm excited, but still a bit skeptic. Like you, I'd like to hear more real-time outdoor stories---just what this group is doing right now. I can't wait to hear all the results--I just wish I had time to be out there as well. Thanks for telling us about IX & making it available to everyone for testing. I love this stuff....

MacEntyre

01-25-2010, 18:36

...suggests to me that the vapor barrier qualities are critical to it's function.
Makes sense... but how does that jive with the best use I've made of IX, in the insulated sock on the outside of a PeaPod? Seems that the vapor barrier qualities in that location would be least apparent, with the conductive insulator properties doing all the work. :confused:

NotToWorry

01-25-2010, 19:47

Makes sense... but how does that jive with the best use I've made of IX, in the insulated sock on the outside of a PeaPod? Seems that the vapor barrier qualities in that location would be least apparent, with the conductive insulator properties doing all the work. :confused:

Yeah, good point. That's why I like real live tests! But the vapor barrier features were also at work blocking entry of cold wind & blocking escape of warm body mositure. Have you comparied other materials as shells in similar situations? I know that's a lot of work, but it might be most informative. For instance, does a full vapor barrier (plastic, survival blanket, etc) give similar results? If you had no condensation buildup with IX, that would be a big plus---but condensation buildup can be highly dependant on the outside humidility; sometimes you get lots & other times you get none using the same equipment. You almost need to test two setups side by side at the same time to be certain. Or did you have unseen condensation buildup in the PP insulation? Weighing the PP before & after might be useful; although I've often found 3-6 oz of condensed moisture by weight in an unprotected PP just from normal nightly use. Significantly more than that might suggest a vapor barrier buildup. Have you tried removing a comfortably warm IX layer during the night to see what effect it was having? Or replacing the IX during the night with something else? You better hurry up Mac, winter'll be over with soon! LOL

MacEntyre

01-25-2010, 20:05

You better hurry up Mac, winter'll be over with soon! LOL
The only thing on that long list that I have done is to eliminate cold spots that showed up in the middle of the night at 21*F, by putting a yard of raw IX inside the PeaPod. The cold spots immediately went away, never to return. I think the IX performance both inside and outside the PeaPod were highly dependent on the fit.

Inside the PeaPod, the IX worked because it was not compressed... so you might say the PeaPod was rigged a little slack.

Outside the PeaPod, the IX worked because it was an excellent fit, from one end to the other... so you could say the PeaPod was slightly compressed by the insulated sock.

Anyway, I'm not likely to do all that testing... I'm just going to make what I think will be most useful. The IX Hammock Sock will work as a supplement to an UQ or a PeaPod; it will also work well by itself in warmer weather. An IX Insert will work as a supplement either outside or inside an UQ. IX might also do well as the top layer of a top blanket.

At Mt Rogers, I will insulate my hammock with nothing but IX layered in the Hammock Sock. Things1, on the other hand, will be comfortably snoozing in a Speer hammock, with a PeaPod and a Speer Top Blanket, underneath a Speer Winter Tarp. At least I get the Frog Sac for a top blanket!

One of these days, I want to make synthetic, insulated moccasins.

- MacEntyre

caddoguy

01-27-2010, 15:43

Rockdawg69

01-27-2010, 15:53

Let's make this easy.... I have great sucess with the following set up. Cheap wally world pad in concert with s.p.e.d. with blue wally word pieces in them ... slide it between the layers of wbbb and sleep like a baby. the end.

Except, some of us are trying to do away with the bulk of the pads, especially for long distance hiking. Would be nice for extra temp coverage to have a thinner "blanket/quilt/etc." that mates to a UQ and could be put in a stuff sack and not take up a bunch of pack space either inside or outside.