Continuous Loop pictoral

[opie]

A member asked if I would post this... so here ya go. This is the same process I use for my Zing It prusiks, although the measurements are a bit shorter.

http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp200/opie0074/P1010051.jpg
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp200/opie0074/P1010052.jpg
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp200/opie0074/P1010053.jpg
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp200/opie0074/P1010054.jpg
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp200/opie0074/P1010055.jpg
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp200/opie0074/P1010056.jpg
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp200/opie0074/P1010057.jpg
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp200/opie0074/P1010058.jpg
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp200/opie0074/P1010059.jpg
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp200/opie0074/P1010060.jpg
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp200/opie0074/P1010061.jpg
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp200/opie0074/P1010062.jpg
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp200/opie0074/P1010063.jpg
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp200/opie0074/P1010064.jpg

[ref103]

is your splicing tool just a wire coat hanger? i saved like 25 of those because they come in handy for so many things.

[cooldays]

Thanks opie.

I made one wrong...didn't lock it the way you are and the bury pulled out. Now i get it!

Thanks!

cooldays

[opie]

is your splicing tool just a wire coat hanger? i saved like 25 of those because they come in handy for so many things.

No, wire coat hanger is to thick.

I dont know the thickness of the wire Im using, but doubled over like it is its about the thickness of a coat hanger.

[opie]

Thanks opie.

I made one wrong...didn't lock it the way you are and the bury pulled out. Now i get it!

Thanks!

cooldays

One of the key parts.. and I think is very important... When you start your buries, you need to have your splicing tool exit as close to the lock as possible. So when you pull the tail through, there isnt enough exposed line between the lock and the bury entrance for something to snag it out.

Technically, its not a lock.... But it does prevent the tails from easily being pulled out.

EDIT: Need to learn how to spell.

[ref103]

No, wire coat hanger is to thick.

I dont know the thickness of the wire Im using, but doubled over like it is its about the thickness of a coat hanger.

thanks. that's a good reference to know. i've been wondering about that for a while. i can find something at work.

[tlbj6142]

I was that member, thanks. Excellent work, again!

[opie]

thanks. that's a good reference to know. i've been wondering about that for a while. i can find something at work.

If I had to make an educated guess, Id say its 16 or 18 gauge. Might even be 14.


I was that member, thanks. Excellent work, again!

My pleasure and good luck with the 1.75!

[tlbj6142]

My pleasure and good luck with the 1.75!I just made a loop, 3.5" long (~7" circumference). I took 12" of 1.75mm Zing-It and marked off 2" buries (last ~1/2" tapered)**. It was fairly easy to do, but I need a narrower gauge tool (the wire I'm using is 20 guage). It is great for 7/64" Amsteel, but it is a bit too tight for 1.75mm stuff.



**It looks like I lost nearly an inch in the process, I assume that's due to the fact that the cord was fairly tight (right off the spool) when I measure the 12" combined with the length lost due to "expansion" around the two 2" buries.

[opie]

I just made a loop, 3.5" long (~7" circumference). I took 12" of 1.75mm Zing-It and marked off 2" buries (last ~1/2" tapered)**. It was fairly easy to do, but I need a narrower gauge tool (the wire I'm using is 20 guage). It is great for 7/64" Amsteel, but it is a bit too tight for 1.75mm stuff.



**It looks like I lost nearly an inch in the process, I assume that's due to the fact that the cord was fairly tight (right off the spool) when I measure the 12" combined with the length lost due to "expansion" around the two 2" buries.

20 gauge is what I use on the Zing It. Works well. Yeah its a little on the large size, but 22 gauge is way to flexible.

Thanks to OldGringo, I have some spectra braided fishing line splicing tools on the way. Should make the 1.75 splices eaiser.

[Scottybdiving]

Thanks Opie. Your pictorials are so precise and clear. I have a few bookmarked already.

[Mrprez]

Yes, thanks for the info, I was wondering how that was done.

[Harpo63]

these pictorial instructions including the other ones should be put in the article section for reference. They are very helpful!

[optimator]

I was going to put rings on my Traveler to hook my Whoopies to. This looks like the ticket right here:thumbup:

[TOB9595]

Thanks Opie.
I seem to "get it" more often when there are visuals to go along with the words.
Tom

[Trout]

What did you mean by, "Don't forget to taper." What are you tapering?

[tlbj6142]

What did you mean by, "Don't forget to taper." What are you tapering?It is when you pull out 1/2 of the threads of the cord over the last 0.5-1" (depending on cord diameter) and cut them off.

See Step 2 in this document (http://www.samsonrope.com/site_files/12S_C2_EyeSpl.pdf) for more details. There is also a description, with more pictures found here. (Part A: Make the Taper). (http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9349)

FWIW, I don't perform the taper until just before I pull the buries. You can probably do it after the bury, but I think the taper makes it easier to pull the inner cord through the outer cord.

[tlbj6142]

Thanks to OldGringo, I have some spectra braided fishing line splicing tools on the way. Should make the 1.75 splices eaiser.You mean something like these (http://www.dahoproducts.com/Work.html)? Those look nice. I'd order a set if I knew what I needed to order....lol

[gargoyle]

Off to make some loops.:cool: Thanks for the info and tutorial Opie.:thumbup:

[TZBrown]

Since Opie had such a great solution to issues I have had for a long time I seem to have gotten the rope splicing bug again.

I used to do twisted rope splices, backsplice, loops, and joining lines, but that were a lot more difficult :( and the results were never this nice. :):)

for the 7/64 amsteel line, I use a guitar string, .035 inch.

For the 1.75 cord I use a piece of tag wire, wire used to attach tags to parts, it is .015 inch in diameter. Works very well.

In the last week I have completed 2 hammock suspensions with UCR attachments and toggles, and a bunch of loops for prusik knots on my tarp lines.

The largest loops in the photo started with 12 inches of line and use about 1 1/2 inches for each bury.

[tlbj6142]

For the 1.75 cord I use a piece of tag wire, wire used to attach tags to parts, it is .015 inch in diameter. Works very well.That would work well, I'll need to keep an eye out for that stuff.

[Mrprez]

Looks like you have gone "Loopy" to me!!!! Where did you find the tag wire?

[TZBrown]

Looks like you have gone "Loopy" to me!!!! Where did you find the tag wire?

YUP :lol:

Tag wire can be found at many auto part suppliers or even some auto parts stores, or junkyards. They use it to tie tags to parts or tie parts together.

Another option would be a .015 guitar string, solid type, about a dollar at a music store.

[Knotty]

How about green floral wire? It's cheap and can be found in craft stores.

This one's 22 guage.
http://www.save-on-crafts.com/22gaugpadwir.html
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/bevfabriccrafts_2091_144060471

[opie]

You mean something like these (http://www.dahoproducts.com/Work.html)? Those look nice. I'd order a set if I knew what I needed to order....lol

Actually its the reverse latch hook and the needle with the loop on the end.

[opie]

Since Opie had such a great solution to issues I have had for a long time I seem to have gotten the rope splicing bug again.

I used to do twisted rope splices, backsplice, loops, and joining lines, but that were a lot more difficult :( and the results were never this nice. :):)

for the 7/64 amsteel line, I use a guitar string, .035 inch.

For the 1.75 cord I use a piece of tag wire, wire used to attach tags to parts, it is .015 inch in diameter. Works very well.

In the last week I have completed 2 hammock suspensions with UCR attachments and toggles, and a bunch of loops for prusik knots on my tarp lines.

The largest loops in the photo started with 12 inches of line and use about 1 1/2 inches for each bury.

For my prusiks I use 1.5" buries and I dont taper. Looks good.

[opie]

What did you mean by, "Don't forget to taper." What are you tapering?

The ends of the buries, just like a fixed eye splice.

I only do that on the 7/64, though.

[gargoyle]

How about green floral wire? It's cheap and can be found in craft stores.

This one's 22 guage.
http://www.save-on-crafts.com/22gaugpadwir.html
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/bevfabriccrafts_2091_144060471

That's what I use, so far, so good;)

[oldgringo]

Just to clarify...you don't stitch the buries?

[opie]

Just to clarify...you don't stitch the buries?

I dont.

I dont see how it could possibly pull out unless you intentionally pull it out.

[AhNuts]

Actually its the reverse latch hook and the needle with the loop on the end.

Opie,
I found 'Daho Loop Splicing Needle' and 'Daho Reverse Latch Needle'

at 'TackleToyStore.com'

are these the tools your are using?

Thanks,
John

[opie]

Opie,
I found 'Daho Loop Splicing Needle' and 'Daho Reverse Latch Needle'

at 'TackleToyStore.com'

are these the tools your are using?

Thanks,
John

I actually just got them in the mail today. Will put them to use shortly.

Sounds like the same thing. I bought the large size and they look about right for the Zing It cord.

[oldgringo]

Making these things is addictive.

[opie]

og.... That loop needle is the bee nees for working on the zing it.

[tlbj6142]

og.... That loop needle is the bee nees for working on the zing it.Got a photo of that loop needle? Or a link?

[opie]

Got a photo of that loop needle? Or a link?

Heres the loop splicing needle....

http://www.dahoproducts.com/images/loop_ends_copy.jpg

http://www.dahoproducts.com/images/loop_needle_family.jpg

[tlbj6142]

Ok, thanks. So, they are those from DaHo. I had the impression they were something slightly different and/or had a hook one end.

[opie]

Ok, thanks. So, they are those from DaHo. I had the impression they were something slightly different and/or had a hook one end.

The reverse latch needle has a hook... And I got one of those too.

http://www.dahoproducts.com/images/latch_needle_family.jpg

The loop is alot easier because the loop on the needle is stiff. So it opens the center of the line up to pull through. I bought the large one but for the 1.75 you could probably go with the medium size.

Im curious to see how much abuse it can take...

[Harpo63]

Just made my first locked brummel on the dynaglide from the group purchase and made one of the "opie ridgelines". Used flower arranging wire (green stuff).

It worked with some of tinkering. Im wondering if the open loop of the loop splicing needle will allow the end of the line you are trying to pull thru the sheath to come out because it does not squeeze the line end as it pulls thru like the wire?

I used to do alot of splicing of rope when I built ropes courses around the country, fun to get back to it.

[TiredFeet]

Opie - how long is the large loop splicing needle you got? I'm wondering if it will fit in the field kit we carry.

[opie]

Opie - how long is the large loop splicing needle you got? I'm wondering if it will fit in the field kit we carry.

Its either 6" or 9" long. Leaning more towards the 6". I can get an exact when I return home.

[VegaMike]

opie, which needles have you found work well? Both loop splicing needle and reverse latch needle? Size? I have (most courtesy of your fantastic group buy efforts) New England Ropes DynaGlide 2mm, Samson Zing It 2.2mm & 1.75mm, and Samson Amsteel 7/64"/2.5mm. I'm willing to buy quality tools because I believe in buying the right tool for the job (so I don't mess up what little line I have). But not too much quality ($$). ;)

[opie]

opie, which needles have you found work well? Both loop splicing needle and reverse latch needle? Size? I have (most courtesy of your fantastic group buy efforts) New England Ropes DynaGlide 2mm, Samson Zing It 2.2mm & 1.75mm, and Samson Amsteel 7/64"/2.5mm. I'm willing to buy quality tools because I believe in buying the right tool for the job (so I don't mess up what little line I have). But not too much quality ($$). ;)

For me, speed is the key. So the strongest, most efficient tool Ive found is a piece of doubled over SS leader wire a member here sent me. (thanks, you know who you are!!)

BUT.... If I were just doing these at my leisure.... The loop splicing needle. Someone here made one, let me see if I can find the thread.

Here ya go...

http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=14336

[oldgringo]

http://www.jannsnetcraft.com/ss-lure-making-wire/311666.aspx

[TeeDee]

Opie - great tutorial on the continuous loop.

I've been making these for a long time using the 1.75 mm Lash-It and now the 2 mm Dynaglide you did the group buy on (Thanks for that by the way).

I experimented with the "Brummel" to "lock" the splice when I started. I settled on a variation of the "locked Brummel" instead of the "Plain Brummel" you use in steps 5 and 6.

For the "plain Brummel" that you show, in your step 5 you do NOT pull the second mark through as you show.

For the "Locked Brummel", you pull DO the second mark through in your step 5.

The problem I had with the plain Brummel is that the forces on the loop pull the plain Brummel apart. You can verify this by making the plain Brummel you show and then, before burying the ends, hook the loop made over your thumbs and pull the loop. The plain Brummel pulls apart very easily.

Thus the plain Brummel really does nothing to keep the continuous splice from pulling apart. The Plain Brummel is a waste of effort if it is being used to keep the splice together. You would be better off stitching the buries. At least the stitching would be functional.

By pulling the second mark through in your step 5 to make the Locked Brummel, the forces on the loop actually pull the Brummel tighter, thus the "locked" part of the name.

The only problem with the locked Brummel for the continuous splice is that it can make a good sized "bump" in the splice. For the 1.75 mm Lash-It/Zing-It or the 2 mm Dynaglide, the bump isn't really noticeable. For 7/64" or larger diameter rope, the bump might be more objectionable. Don't really know about that though since I haven't made any continuous loops in anything except the 1.75 mm and 2 mm stuff. NOTE: Just made a loop using 1/8" Lash-It. The bump isn't really very much at all.

In the 1.75 mm and 2 mm stuff I use for the continuous loops for Prussics, I start with 15" and make the marks 2" from the ends giving me 2" buries. I experimented starting with 12" and 18". 2" buries in both. The 12" gave me a finished loop on the Prussic which is too small for my use. The 18" yielded a finished loop which was bigger than I needed. So I split the difference.

[opie]

Opie - great tutorial on the continuous loop.

I've been making these for a long time using the 1.75 mm Lash-It and now the 2 mm Dynaglide you did the group buy on (Thanks for that by the way).

I experimented with the "Brummel" to "lock" the splice when I started. I settled on a variation of the "locked Brummel" instead of the "Plain Brummel" you use in steps 5 and 6.

For the "plain Brummel" that you show, in your step 5 you do NOT pull the second mark through as you show.

For the "Locked Brummel", you pull DO the second mark through in your step 5.

The problem I had with the plain Brummel is that the forces on the loop pull the plain Brummel apart. You can verify this by making the plain Brummel you show and then, before burying the ends, hook the loop made over your thumbs and pull the loop. The plain Brummel pulls apart very easily.

Thus the plain Brummel really does nothing to keep the continuous splice from pulling apart. The Plain Brummel is a waste of effort if it is being used to keep the splice together. You would be better off stitching the buries. At least the stitching would be functional.

By pulling the second mark through in your step 5 to make the Locked Brummel, the forces on the loop actually pull the Brummel tighter, thus the "locked" part of the name.

The only problem with the locked Brummel for the continuous splice is that it can make a good sized "bump" in the splice. For the 1.75 mm Lash-It/Zing-It or the 2 mm Dynaglide, the bump isn't really noticeable. For 7/64" or larger diameter rope, the bump might be more objectionable. Don't really know about that though since I haven't made any continuous loops in anything except the 1.75 mm and 2 mm stuff. NOTE: Just made a loop using 1/8" Lash-It. The bump isn't really very much at all.

In the 1.75 mm and 2 mm stuff I use for the continuous loops for Prussics, I start with 15" and make the marks 2" from the ends giving me 2" buries. I experimented starting with 12" and 18". 2" buries in both. The 12" gave me a finished loop on the Prussic which is too small for my use. The 18" yielded a finished loop which was bigger than I needed. So I split the difference.

Ill have to try that.

Using the "plain brummel" I havent noticed any of the loops coming apart. If the tails werent buried I can see how it would come apart, but since the tails are buried, there really isnt anyway it would come apart unless you physically take it apart. No matter the orientation of the loop, when you apply force to it both buries are being pulled on.

[TeeDee]

Ill have to try that.

Using the "plain brummel" I havent noticed any of the loops coming apart. If the tails werent buried I can see how it would come apart, but since the tails are buried, there really isnt anyway it would come apart unless you physically take it apart. No matter the orientation of the loop, when you apply force to it both buries are being pulled on.

True, but that's just the point. The buries are the only thing holding the splice together. The plain Brummel does nothing.

[opie]

True, but that's just the point. The buries are the only thing holding the splice together. The plain Brummel does nothing.

Technically, your right. It adds nothing to the integrity of the splice.

BUT it does give the bury tails a "stopper". It allows me to pull each tail until they are tight, and then bury them. Keeps them consistent.

And its not like a fixed eye on a sling where you have something to get ahold of to pull it out. There is nothing you can get ahold of on the loop to pull the bury out, unless youre using a needle. I keep the bury entrance close enough to the brummel that you would need a good eye and a small needle to pull the bury out.

BTW< Youre right on the locked brummel.... Thats a nice little hump.

[TexasRT]

For those looking for wire to use as a splicing tool, try the local automotive store. They all carry either "safety" wire or utility wire. A 50' roll of stainless safety wire was only $3.99 at the local AutoZone.

[TeeDee]

BTW< Youre right on the locked brummel.... Thats a nice little hump.

Yes, you're right.

Here's the locked Brummel in 3 mm Lash-It and 1.75 mm Lash-it showing the "bump":

http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/files/2/2/6/locked.brummel.001.jpg (http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=8554&c=14)

Not really much of a bump.

[Barefoot Child]

And a fine bump that is, if'n I say so meself! :laugh::laugh:

[PuckerFactor]

Is there any way to do a true locked brummel continuous loop? I've been pondering it in my head for a few days now, and I can't think of anything.

Very curious,
Acer

[Knotty]

Only if you're Buckaroo Bonzai and can enter the eighth dimension. :D

[PuckerFactor]

Honestly! Why didn't I think of that?? I'll be right back.
*Runs off to the lab*

[Barefoot Child]

For the life of me, I thought that Brummel information was in the 9th dimension for some reason...oh well.
(and continues to skip down the pathway without a care in his life, or a thought in his head)

[PuckerFactor]

*runs back breathlessly*
It worked! I did it!
Here's a picture!
8299

Wait a minute... It looked right over there... Musta been the extra free radicals from the trip. Oh well, it was worth a shot.

:-(
Acer

[Barefoot Child]

I honestly don't see anything wrong with it. And I be an expert!

NOT!!! :laugh:

[spotz]

*runs back breathlessly*
It worked! I did it!
Here's a picture!
8299

Wait a minute... It looked right over there... Musta been the extra free radicals from the trip. Oh well, it was worth a shot.

:-(
Acer

and they say strobes are bad for Epilepsy :scared:

[Knotty]

*runs back breathlessly*
It worked! I did it!
Here's a picture!
8299

Wait a minute... It looked right over there... Musta been the extra free radicals from the trip. Oh well, it was worth a shot.

:-(
Acer

Very funny. You made me laugh.

But remember...no matter where you go, there you are.

[Perkolady]

You guys are a riot! :lol: I needed that laugh !!

[TeeDee]

Is there any way to do a true locked brummel continuous loop? I've been pondering it in my head for a few days now, and I can't think of anything.

Very curious,
Acer

Define "true locked brummel".

If you mean such that the 2 strands are interwoven (marlin splices I believe they are called), then the manner that I have altered Opie's steps fits.

If you mean that the 2 strands have to also lie along the standing part as in the locked Brummel for a fixed eye, then the answer is no for the simple fact that there is no longer a standing part.

[TeeDee]

Okay my previous post is wrong.

Opie's procedure as I altered it is a "true locked Brummel".

I think the confusion comes about because people tend to think of the fixed eye made with a locked Brummel splice.

There are 2 splices in the fixed eye:


Locked Brummel splice
bury splice


Those are 2 different splices and not one splice.

The continuous loop as I make them (and as altered above in step 5 of Opie's procedure) involves making a fixed eye with a "true locked Brummel" and then 2 buries instead of the single bury of the usual fixed eye. The buries involve burying the "standing part" and "free end" (really 2 free ends) from the fixed eye into the rope of the eye yielding a continuous loop with a "true locked Brummel".

[PuckerFactor]

Define "true locked brummel".
If you mean that the 2 strands have to also lie along the standing part as in the locked Brummel for a fixed eye, then the answer is no for the simple fact that there is no longer a standing part.

I think that's what I mean. It's just Opie's standard way, except the two brummel "pass-throughs" are reversed so that they lock under tension, as in a LB eye splice.

Clear as mud?
Acer

[russmay]

Ok, so I made my first continuos loop. I used 7/64 yellow Amsteel. I made it with 30" with 5" spliced in on each side. I will use this for Prussic knots. I ended up with a loop that is 9" in length. I hope I did this right seems very strong and nothing is slipping out of place. I'll make a few more then tackle a whoopi sling next.

[Mrprez]

Would the formula be the same if I was using a larger rope? I need to make some tie down loops for the motorcycle and was thinking about using 1/2" ski rope. I need to make some 12" loops.

[opie]

Prez.... For anything thats going to bear any type of considerable weight or force, I use 6" buries.

That being said, I dont use the Zing It for anything thats going to bear a considerable amount of weight.

[opie]

Ok, so I made my first continuos loop. I used 7/64 yellow Amsteel. I made it with 30" with 5" spliced in on each side. I will use this for Prussic knots. I ended up with a loop that is 9" in length. I hope I did this right seems very strong and nothing is slipping out of place. I'll make a few more then tackle a whoopi sling next.

Sounds like you got it.

[TeeDee]

Would the formula be the same if I was using a larger rope? I need to make some tie down loops for the motorcycle and was thinking about using 1/2" ski rope. I need to make some 12" loops.

Mrprez - depends on the rope material.

For buries, Samson recommends 2 fid lengths for class I rope (olefin, polyester or nylon) for the bury length, bury into 2 fid lengths

They recommend 3 fid lengths for Class II rope (high modulus fibers - dyneema, spectra, technora, etc) for the bury length, bury into 3.5 fid lengths.

1 fid is 7x the rope diameter.

[Mrprez]

I went with a 3/8" rope and 6" buries. The sizing worked out just fine and the loops are holding just fine. I'll be keeping a close eye on things. I also added backup tie outs to the front and the back just in case. Don't want a 900 lb motorcycle coming loose at 70 mph!

[Knotty]

Mrprez - depends on the rope material.

For buries, Samson recommends 2 fid lengths for class I rope (olefin, polyester or nylon) for the bury length, bury into 2 fid lengths

They recommend 3 fid lengths for Class II rope (high modulus fibers - dyneema, spectra, technora, etc) for the bury length, bury into 3.5 fid lengths.

1 fid is 7x the rope diameter.

Actually 1 fid length = 21 x rope diameter or 7 x rope circumference.

[opie]

Allright.. Had to fireup the testing machine for WB Guy today, so I whipped up a standard 12" continuous loop to test out....

Heres the loop after about 1800 pounds..

http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp200/opie0074/P1010179.jpg

And the reason I had to stop...

http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp200/opie0074/P1010180.jpg

I think that biner was tired. Its an Omega biner rated at 21kn.

[HamMike]

You mean something like these (http://www.dahoproducts.com/Work.html)? Those look nice. I'd order a set if I knew what I needed to order....lol
those are some cool tools! would be nice to have if you plan on doin alot of splicing.

[zoovegroover]

TeeDee - would you please do a pictorial of the steps to create a continuous loop using locked brummels...I am having a hard time trying to figure this out. Are you just creating one lock with a bury of that tail and simply burying the other tail? Does the McDonald mod of the Brummel work here?

[Kokak]

Awesome instructions....

THANKS!!!!!:D

[entropy]

those are some cool tools! would be nice to have if you plan on doin alot of splicing.

Hey Opie. How many feet of Amsteel do you process in a week? (guessing it will qualify as alot of splicing)

[opie]

Hey Opie. How many feet of Amsteel do you process in a week? (guessing it will qualify as alot of splicing)

When I was doing it, total for all the line I used amounted to around 1000 a week. Not sure what Smoke is going through now, however.

[Roadrunnr72]

Question--As a newbie, I am aloud a dumb question, so here it is- What are you using your Continuous Loops for?

[SmokeBait]

Roadrunnr, one can use them to tie a lark's head on to the end of their gathered end hammock to form an attachment point. They can also be run through the sewn end channel of a gathered end hammock for the same purpose.

Entropy, I'm following in Opie's footstep and still processing about the same 1000' per week. Lord help me if Sampson Rope ever shuts down the Amsteel Blue line :scared:

[^shane^]

I ordered some 1/8" Amsteel and 2.2mm Zing-it from Redden on Saturday evening and the package was on my front porch today when we got home, so of course I had to play with it.

I ran to Hobby Lobby to find something to use as a splicing tool. Ended up with some knitter's needles.

I made a little loop out of the Zing-it (probably too small to use - won't make that mistake again) using the technique described in post 45 of this thread. Hardest part was the stinking tapers. I don't have anything sharp enough to cut this stuff.

Here are the results:
http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/files/3/2/1/3/firstloop_thumb.jpg (http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=11002&c=4)

A few more of these, then on to whoopies and nacrabiners. Something new to learn!

[cosmicmiami]

Question--As a newbie, I am aloud a dumb question, so here it is

I'm a newb too and have no shortage of dumb questions. :cool:


What are you using your Continuous Loops for?

I'm using them as Klemheist knots to attach tarp and hardware to the tarp ridgeline. I have a couple extras along with some 7/64" soft shackles in my stake bag. Going to make up a few longer ones to put in the what-if bag along with the stakes.

[opie]

SHANE, you dont need to taper the zing it/lash it.

[Roadrunnr72]

Got my order of Amsteel (200' worth). After making my whoopie slings, thought I would try a few loops. I used a steel yarn needle from Joann's, these are plastic needles (http://www.joann.com/joann/catalog/productdetail.jsp?CATID=cat2705&PRODID=prd45948). I couldn't find the steel online. But they worked. I would "milk" the amsteel onto it, then grab the needle with my gerber and pulled through. I found it to be easier to taper first, it made it easier when using the needles.

[cosmicmiami]

....Hardest part was the stinking tapers....


I just mash down the ends a little between a couple fingernails to loosen up the ends. Pulls through great with my wire leader wire. Agreed. No need to taper like the 7/64.

[Browny]

0.39" / 0.9mm diameter MIG welding wire is the bomb. Some of you guys have mentioned fishing trace/leader wire, well this is the same, but you can get enough for nothing from most any welding shop.( The leftover pieces at the end of the spool are approx 6 foot long and all but useless, except maybe as backup TIG welder filler rod..... if your real desperate)

Or I can post you some if you want to pay shipping from down under ;)

[kc7fys]

I was following this thread and making my own continuous loops. My DIY fid is a guitar string. I started thick, thinking a low E would be good--that was a mistake. A "G" or perhaps a "B" from a heavy set functions best. Stiffest, but still thin. For non-guitarists, you could use any string, but the high "E" starts to get too thin to be useful. "Unwound" means a plain wire, not one that's wound with bronze in a helical fashion.
I suppose you could improve on the design with a dowel handle covered in shrink tubing... but my guitar string, doubled, rolls up nice in the Amsteel bag, ready to use.
Jonathan

[Lonely Raven]

I was following this thread and making my own continuous loops. My DIY fid is a guitar string. I started thick, thinking a low E would be good--that was a mistake. A "G" or perhaps a "B" from a heavy set functions best. Stiffest, but still thin. For non-guitarists, you could use any string, but the high "E" starts to get too thin to be useful. "Unwound" means a plain wire, not one that's wound with bronze in a helical fashion.
I suppose you could improve on the design with a dowel handle covered in shrink tubing... but my guitar string, doubled, rolls up nice in the Amsteel bag, ready to use.
Jonathan

I'm using D'Addario G string, .017 Nickle Plated if I recall correctly. :D

[jred]

I looked through the thread, but I may have missed it. Why can't you use a locked brummel on these? It would make a slightly larger bump, but from how I see, start with the locked brummel as seen here: http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=13328 but instead of pulling the ends together as a tail, fold them back along the loop & splice in.

[^shane^]

I looked through the thread, but I may have missed it. Why can't you use a locked brummel on these? It would make a slightly larger bump, but from how I see, start with the locked brummel as seen here: http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=13328 but instead of pulling the ends together as a tail, fold them back along the loop & splice in.

See posts 45 through 50 of this very thread... it's all discussed there. I've used a locked brummel on a couple of Zing-it loops. The "bump" created by the locked brummel is fairly small. Haven't tried this yet with 7/64" or 1/8" amsteel.

[thekalimist]

so I finally got dropped guys.... one of my year-old, noob-made continous loops failed. apparently 3in buries arent enough for 1/8" amsteel :rolleyes:

http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/files/5/6/5/2/loopfail1.jpg

http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/files/5/6/5/2/loopfail.jpg

planted my butt smoothly but firmly on the floor

[SamD]

Guess the pictures prove it happens. :) Hope your OK.

[UncleMJM]

so I finally got dropped guys.... one of my year-old, noob-made continous loops failed. apparently 3in buries arent enough for 1/8" amsteel :rolleyes:

planted my butt smoothly but firmly on the floor

Yikes :scared:... just to add to my worries, are you talking about 3 in buries after a locked brummel or just the buries?

[thekalimist]

3 in buries but no lock. i did it as shown in OP pictorial where the ends just pass through themselves and bury.

i honestly had no idea at the time what i was doing and im pretty sure i made a couple passes through the ends before burying. on top of that i sleep in this hammock nightly and its received a fair amount of abuse considering the environment(college house). i actually saw it earlier that day and thought it looked like it might have slipped but decided to let future me worry about that...

I hold full faith in properly made CLs, and will definitely be using mine if i go the drip ring route again. For now im just going to stick to whoopies hangin on with good ol' trusty locked brummels i can splice blind folded. again nothing against this setup, im just trying to simplify my setup and reduce bulk wherever i can.

[thekid]

I made some of the continuous loops but it just seemed that too much messing around and the bury would come loose. I know, dont mess with it, but I made two closed loop Locked Brummel and I think it will serve the same purpose.

[thekalimist]

I made some of the continuous loops but it just seemed that too much messing around and the bury would come loose. I know, dont mess with it, but I made two closed loop Locked Brummel and I think it will serve the same purpose.

this is what im doing now. for me the locked brummel is much easier and i feel safe with it even before burying the tail

[WV]

so I finally got dropped guys.... one of my year-old, noob-made continous loops failed. apparently 3in buries arent enough for 1/8" amsteel :rolleyes:

http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/files/5/6/5/2/loopfail1.jpg

http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/files/5/6/5/2/loopfail.jpg

planted my butt smoothly but firmly on the floor

Something like that happened to me. An old continuous loop in spectra wakeboarding rope failed because the bury wasn't long enough. The failure was at the foot end, and it dropped me on my butt. I was asleep at the time, and I awoke instantly, realized what happened, and thought, "That wasn't so bad!"
Fast forward a year, and I had a another failure, but this time at the head end end of the hammock (whoopie slipping off a toggle). Ouch, ouch, and ouch! It slapped the top half of my body to the ground this time. Initial impact was my spine just below the neck, then head. It was months before I felt fully recovered. Don't let your survival of this accident lull you into a false sense of security.

[Running Feather]

....... but this time at the head end end of the hammock (whoopie slipping off a toggle). Ouch, ouch, and ouch! It slapped the top half of my body to the ground this time. Initial impact was my spine just below the neck, then head. It was months before I felt fully recovered.

How rude :eek:

[Highbinder]

Hey guys,

Just curious to know how small a loop you can form with 7/64 amsteel. I've done a practice one using a 36" piece and 6" buries, which leaves 10" of cord 'empty' on the loop. I take it there are no ill effects if I were to use a 28" piece of cord to leave 2" of 'empty' cord?

What about shortening the buries? How short is no longer safe?

Thank you for the tutorial! This was my first time working with splices and it was a piece of cake compared to what I expected. Now what to try next :lol:

[Jazilla]

I have done smaller but I used 2mm amsteel and its on my ridgeline of my DIY BB I am currently working on. I started with 24'', buried 6'' on each side making it a 6'' loop. Gets a little difficult in the second bury cause it meets the first. If your looking for a loop that small I would suggest a soft shackle or something of the like.

[Highbinder]

I have done smaller but I used 2mm amsteel and its on my ridgeline of my DIY BB I am currently working on. I started with 24'', buried 6'' on each side making it a 6'' loop. Gets a little difficult in the second bury cause it meets the first. If your looking for a loop that small I would suggest a soft shackle or something of the like.

I made a second smaller set, 14" circumference (6" buries with 2" 'empty'), which I'm going to use doubled over.

Soft shackles are next on my list :)

[SmokeBait]

29" of 7/64" line will yield a 7" loop with 6" buries. That's about a small as I like to go. It gets harder to thread a wire when going smaller than that. I curved wire might allow one to go a little smaller.

[Bubba]

I've made loops as small as 6 inches in diametre. Certainly not recommended but so far they have held.

[oldgringo]

I've been making some loops, and chewing on the fact that the open Brummel holds nothing. After rereading this thread, I'm leaning in the direction of stitching the buries, but haven't talked myself into it, yet. In the meantime, I try to center the Brummel in the larkshead, so that the pressure of the larkshead fixes the buries.

[QChan]

How on earth did I miss this post when I was making these last month... How silly of me.

Thanks for the great walkthrough opie. :)

[oldgringo]

Merged posts from related thread:


I don't think you can readily do that on a continuous loop.


You can, but it leaves a bulge. It's not pretty, but it's easy to hide it in use.

[gmcttr]

You can, but it leaves a bulge. It's not pretty, but it's easy to hide it in use.

Do you have a link for directions on doing a locked brummel (not just a brummel) on a continuous loop? I'm having trouble visualizing it. Thanks.

[shumway]

This thread has great directions on the loop. (http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=13779) Opie says he doesn't stitch his loops. Post #45 in that thread describes a locked brummel version, but doesn't have a picture of the process. I'm having trouble visualizing it myself. Off to do more searching.

[gmcttr]

This thread has great directions on the loop. (http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=13779) Opie says he doesn't stitch his loops. Post #45 in that thread describes a locked brummel version, but doesn't have a picture of the process. I'm having trouble visualizing it myself. Off to do more searching.

OK, I just made one from 2.2 zing it following post #45. The locked brummel does leave a bulge just as oldgringo stated. I must of had brain freeze not to be able to see it.

Corrected my earlier post. Thanks.

[shumway]

I'm still lost. I tried it with 7/64 amsteel. I got the lock down but I'm havingtrouble figuring which way to do the buries.

[gmcttr]

I'm still lost. I tried it with 7/64 amsteel. I got the lock down but I'm havingtrouble figuring which way to do the buries.

The usual direction for a locked brummel is the best I can tell you.

Edited to add photo. The buries go in the direction the ends are laying in the photo.

Sorry for hijacking the thread.

[oldgringo]

Back before we all went splicing crazy, the preferred method for making closed loops was a fisherman's bend, either double or triple...Warbonnet still employs that methodology. I just made a hybrid loop with Dynaglide...double fisherman's bend with 3" buries. Not bad.:) It's not a better way, just another way, and I'll probably stick with stitching my buries, and call it a day.

I'm going to ask the mods to move this discussion to the continuous loop thread. [Done]

[gmcttr]

Thanks for the "move".

When making a continuous loop with a locked brummel (as depicted in my photo/post #109), the buries are in the opposite direction of a normal locked brummel as used in a fixed eye. I think this puts all of the stress on the lock and little on the bury/constrictor. I don't think I will use this method for weight bearing loops.

[shumway]

That's where I was confused. If you bury the way it looks the neatest, it's weaker than the non-locked version. It may be physically impossible to have the lock and have the buries avoid that u-turn in the picture. I'm not describing what I'm thinking very well.

OG - Thanks for getting this moved to a more sensible place.

[dragon360]

I've done my loops according to Opie's tutorial and i have had no issues (I currently/ most recently use them as prussics for my Hennessy Exped). However, whenever I feel like I want the extra security, I make the buries longer. I'm at 7" buries for my new 12" loops (have a few at 8" as well) and I hung my full weight on hooks and bounced and so far no problems.

[opie]

Before I knew what I was doing, I was making things like this.

The splice I show in the OP is called an "end for end" splice. Minus the brummel. Bury measurements are the same for an end for end as they are for a fixed eye. I added the brummel because it allowed me to pull the bury tails tight prior to burying. This let me get the bury entrance close enough to the brummel that it was near impossible to "accidentally" snag the bury and pull it out.

Technically you can do the same thing minus the brummel, I just never did.

[gmcttr]

Before I knew what I was doing, I was making things like this...

Some of use are at that "before I knew what I was doing" stage and a little slow to realize the wheel doesn't need reinventing. :D

We'll figure it out someday.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

[DemostiX]

There are several remarks about tapering the bury in this discussion.

Everything I find from the rope manufacturers and from the boating community says the tapers are essential if the rope / cord is not to be de-rated. I find some estimates of derating by as much as 50%. Contrary to the thought expressed in this thread that tapering is of the strands in the last 1/2 to 1", it refers to the pulling of half the strands, each strand at an additional increment from the end to form a smooth taper.

The reason for the de-rating is familiar to me from well-documented metallurgical failure in bicycle parts in anything from the frame tubes to crank arms: "Stress risers" are just what the rope engineers refer also refer to. (eg. To collapse a bicycle down or seat tube, drill a couple of holes in one to mount another water bottle. There will be stress risers, from which cracks will emanate at those holes.)

So, you want to avoid any sharp discontinuity such as where the bury ends, by tapering it I don't know what Amsteel and similar looks like when it fails, but I can guess that most of us are not carefully examining our cord and rope, the way the nautical, arborist, climbing, and rescue types do. The best policy is to make splices the way the pros do, even if we don't have the experience of seeing failures in the field from the many more exposures to failure in harbors and other places where there is a lot of rigging.

This Samson Rope video is pretty clear on the taper, by using serious rope.

http://samsonrope.com/12-strand-class2-eyesplice.cfm. Go about 40% in to see that creation of a taper in the bury.

[opie]

There are several remarks about tapering the bury in this discussion.

Everything I find from the rope manufacturers and from the boating community says the tapers are essential if the rope / cord is not to be de-rated. I find some estimates of derating by as much as 50%. Contrary to the thought expressed in this thread that tapering is of the strands in the last 1/2 to 1", it refers to the pulling of half the strands, each strand at an additional increment from the end to form a smooth taper.

The reason for the de-rating is familiar to me from well-documented metallurgical failure in bicycle parts in anything from the frame tubes to crank arms: "Stress risers" are just what the rope engineers refer also refer to. (eg. To collapse a bicycle down or seat tube, drill a couple of holes in one to mount another water bottle. There will be stress risers, from which cracks will emanate at those holes.)

So, you want to avoid any sharp discontinuity such as where the bury ends, by tapering it I don't know what Amsteel and similar looks like when it fails, but I can guess that most of us are not carefully examining our cord and rope, the way the nautical, arborist, climbing, and rescue types do. The best policy is to make splices the way the pros do, even if we don't have the experience of seeing failures in the field from the many more exposures to failure in harbors and other places where there is a lot of rigging.

This Samson Rope video is pretty clear on the taper, by using serious rope.

http://samsonrope.com/12-strand-class2-eyesplice.cfm. Go about 40% in to see that creation of a taper in the bury.

Yup, thats the proper way to perform an eyesplice according to Samson. Who has a legal team directing them to CYA in any way, shape matter or form they can. Liability and all that.

Check this one out...

http://www.samsonrope.com/site_files/12-Strand_AmSteel-Blue_Whoopie_Sling_Splice_2008.pdf

I sent a question off the Samson asking why they show a locked brummel splice with the taper consisting of just cutting the end at an angle, while an eye splice being 3 fids with the taper being pulling half the strands 1 fid in.... The response had a couple points...

First was that the whoopie sling has the majority of its derate at the exit point for the adjustable eye bury, so any derate from the "lack of taper" (if you want to consider it that way) is a moot point and negligible.

Second was for legal reasons.

I think you'll find, at least I have, among folks who actually use the rope, the cutting of the end at an angle yields sufficient results with no great loss in strength, if any. I haven't seen a practical splice yet that will place a 50% derate on the rope. Don't get knot derate and splicing derate confused. Even Samsons suggestion of 40% on a whoopie sling is very generous. Ive found a 7/64 sling to retain the majority if the lines average strength. Same with Dynaglide. All using an angle cut for the taper.

[DemostiX]

There have been remarks, by senior members in these threads, essentially dismissing what is best practice by pointing out they're still alive to post the message. Most good practices are NOT because risk-averse lawyers say so. This isn't about reducing wear and differences in working load, but about preventing easily avoidable catastrophic failure. Same holds for putting the several stitches in a splice to be sure that when there is no load the core and constrictor don't move.

There'll come a time, with increased numbers of hammockers, that someone is seriously hurt because a sling that could easily have been made correctly fails because it wasn't. More serious consequences than of a poorly sewn hem, or falling one foot to the turf in a back yard. And this isn't about whether the safety factor on maximum strength should be 3, 5, or 7. It is about whether we have tested the stop knot in a lovely soft shackle by loading it to near rated maximum for a day to confirm the stop knot in dyneema doesn't slip before making a gift of it.

To Opie and the other rigging and rescue pros here: This isn't directed toward them. I'm enjoying magic with rope as much as the next person.

[opie]

Demo, had a reply all typed out, but it got way OT.

In short... The proper measurements and procedures for making slings and whatnot are all over HF. It would not be the responsibility of anyone but the person making the sling if its made incorrectly. Even links back to Samsons splicing pages are strewn about HF.

I havent yet seen anyone suggest to anyone else to NOT stitch a plain fixed eye. To the contrary actually.

It is not industry standard to load something "for a day" to test it. Sure there has been some backyard destruction around here, myself included. The world revolves around taking something and making it better. This means sometimes one needs to push the design specs a manufacturer sets forth. Samson does not have a splicing page for a soft shackle, yet people make them and they have been tested and hold up.

[DemostiX]

Here are general recommendations for single braid UHMWPE line such as the Amsteel we are using, by McCarthy and Starzinger from US Sailing.

The source is a pdf [/URL]from January 2010. They present it to reflect collective wisdom and experience from multiple communities of users over a number of years.

I've hi-lited a few points that were new to me, if not to you.


As in all line, splices are preferred to knots where possible. As with all line, a splice in Spectra® will be stronger than a knot. Generally a splice will be 90-100% of the line strength while a knot will be only 55-60% of the line
strength (excluding the slippage issue discussed below).
There are two splices in common usage with single braid Spectra®: the locked Brummel
(http://www.neropes.com/SPL_12Strand_EyeSpliceBrummel.aspx) and the Bury
(http://www.samsonrope.com/site_files/12S_C2_EyeSpl.pdf ) . The Bury is perhaps the simplest of all slices in all types of line. After making it once with instructions, most people can make it again without instructions. This splice
must absolutely be lock stitched or it may slip under low load. With lock stitching it is absolutely secure. The locked Brummel is more complex and many people will require instructions each time they make it. In return for this complexity, the locked Brummel is more secure (without lock stitching) against low load slipping. However, if the buried tail is too short on a locked Brummel, the whole load can come off the ‘knot like’ locking portion and it will break at much lower than expected load. Recent testing indicates the buried tail must be 72 times the diameter of the line, which is longer than previously recommended and typically used in practice. Both splices are acceptable, but the Bury splice is simpler and more resistant to improper construction, so is generally used.

One key to proper construction for both splices is a long smooth taper on the buried tail. If the tail is not tapered it will create a stress riser at its end and the splice will fail at that point. A second key to proper construction is that
Spectra® is more slippery that almost any other fiber and splices can slip at quite low loads if there is an oscillating or jerky loading. To prevent this all splices should be lock stitched and the throat whipped.

The document goes on to describe (even untreated) dyneema as among the most abrasion-resistant fibers -- that's to you, Grizz --saying that the best protection, if needed is more dyneema, and that signs of abrasive wear are obvious: fuzziness.

There is also this suggestion I think we have not seen before here:


Knots should have the tail lock stitched to the standing part as this will eliminate the risk of slippage. To untie these knots you can pull the tip of the tail away from the standing part and slice the lock stitches with a razor blade.

Dunno that many campers will whip out a needle in a pinch to inject a few threads, but there it is.

[opie]

That appears to be an opinion piece with no supporting information. They mention recent testing, but offer no links to test results.

Ive seen a video, and I wish I could find it, where a locked brummel splice was pulled apart without the tail being buried and it failed at half the average strength of the line. It failed by the tails braid coming undone, not breaking.

And if one makes a locked brummel splice according to specs, the tail wont be "to short." If one strays from the specs.... Thats no fault of anyone but the one doing it.

This....


However, if the buried tail is too short on a locked Brummel, the whole load can come off the ‘knot like’ locking portion and it will break at much lower than expected load. Recent testing indicates the buried tail must be 72 times the diameter of the line, which is longer than previously recommended and typically used in practice.

Doesnt make sense to me. How will the load come off the "knot like" portion? And if the splice is done correctly, it wont be to short.

Id like to see the results of their testing, if you have it.

And I have yet to see a locked brummel splice fail using a 2 fid bury. Not even on a test bed. Not saying it can not happen, just that i have not witnessed it.

Seriously... Id like to see some supporting information to back up the article you posted. Some googling has shown me its been posted on numerous boating forums and not one person has asked to see supporting evidence.

[gargoyle]

If one strays from the specs.... Thats no fault of anyone but the one doing it.

Excellent advice in any project in this DIY community. Lots of good info on this forum. How each person executes the info is thier responsibility, be it sewing, fabric usage, knots, what have you.



Seriously... Id like to see some supporting information to back up the article you posted. Some googling has shown me its been posted on numerous boating forums and not one person has asked to see supporting evidence.

Viral rumor??
I've seen it happen now and then. Somebody says something on one forum, then it gets entered into another forum (slightly mis-translated), and then to another...
Reminds of that campfire game "telephone", where someone whispers a story into the ear of the person next to them, then passes the info he heard to the next guy, and so on. By the time the story goes full circle, the story has changed, as have the facts.
Just because someone said it on the Net, don't make it true.

[Jazilla]

DemostiX,
What is your deal man. If you don't like the loop don't use it. Give Opie a break, he didn't invent Amsteel and he certainly isn't forcing anyone to make loops. We are all grown ups here. I have made every splice on this site and I can tell you I have yet to have one she any sign of failing.

[Cruiser]

I read this whole thread & I still most have missed something. 7/64 amsteel taper the ends or not?
Thanks

[Catavarie]

I read this whole thread & I still most have missed something. 7/64 amsteel taper the ends or not?
Thanks

It's not neccessary, but will make it much easier to use if you taper the ends. Instead of pulling 6 strands like with 1/8 only pull 4 strands at most.

[gargoyle]

I read this whole thread & I still most have missed something. 7/64 amsteel taper the ends or not?
Thanks

Its recommended by the rope manufacturer. Testing shows the weak point being where the rope steps down at the buried tail. Tapering allows for a smoother transition, resulting in a stronger loop.

In one of the pics in Post #1, (3rd from the end) Opie mentions, "don't forget the taper".

[Cruiser]

Thanks for clearing that up for me guys.



In one of the pics in Post #1, (3rd from the end) Opie mentions, "don't forget the taper".
I did see that but thought I read somewhere else in this thread that there was no need to taper 7/64. As a rule I will just taper all of them. I guess it won't hurt anything & will be good practice. Thanks again

[Yukon]

Tapering makes it look much nicer as well :)

[opie]

Thanks for clearing that up for me guys.


I did see that but thought I read somewhere else in this thread that there was no need to taper 7/64. As a rule I will just taper all of them. I guess it won't hurt anything & will be good practice. Thanks again

Please dont forget to taper.

The only time I ever suggest not tapering is for tarp lines or an ASR using the smaller diameter lines. For anything holding your weight, please follow the proper splicing procedure.

[jima59]

Probably been beaten to death already but heres my 2 cents... I use the floral wire from Joannes. I have tow small rolls of it, about a 24 and 26 size or abouts. Very cheap and easy to use. If it gets bent too much or kinky, just throw it away at the price of the stuff.

[Diz]

Grate stuff, Opie your TO COOL!

[Rooster]

Can the continuous loops be made from dynaglide, or is it better to just use amsteel?

[Rapt]

The loops can be made from any single braid rope. The choice of material/size, depends on the nature of the use you want to put it to.

Dynaglide is 2mm HMPE (Dyneema/Spectra) cord with a rated strength of 1000lb. Manufactured by New England Ropes
Zing-it/Lash-it comes in 1.75mm and 2.2mm manufactured by Samson Ropes
Amsteel comes in 7/64" (2.8mm) and larger sizes manufactured by Samson Ropes

Which one is most suitable for your application is best determined by you. However I'd suggest that Dynaglide/Zingit/Lashit be used for tarps and non-structural applcations. Personally anything supporting a person should be no weaker than 7/64" Amsteel. But that's my choice for me.

[opie]

You can actually make them from just about any cord that can be spliced, including double braid. Making these is simply an end for end splice on the same piece of cord rather than joining 2 separate pieces.

Speaking in generalities..... Most of the times these loops are used, you essentially have 2 legs in the suspension rather than one. So you are splitting the ultimate load placed on the loop in half as each leg will carry 50% of the load. So a loop made from 2.2mm zing it will actually have a higher rating than a single strand of dynaglide.

[linxdev]

West Marine sells these with smaller diameter and they appear to be uniform. Do they taper them? I can't believe what they charge for those small things. Is there a rule where if you own a boat you also have a million dollars?

[Cali]

Thanks Opie, sure do appreciate the help. I love this forum... :)

[Dos]

thanks for this thorough pictorial.
as if I wasn't already hooked on the DIY section,
now carries over to the splicing.....

<------official addict:mellow:

[spike436]

Thanks opie that was fun

[pmike]

As I began to work toward splicing my whoopie slings, I started looking into "tools" to use for making splices and saw that others were using guitar strings and a multitude of other things. While walking through a local store and looking at their fishing gear, I noticed a spool of stainless steel leader wire. All they had was some 44lb so I bought it, doubled over about a 40" piece and twisted it together, leaving a small loop in the end that was doubled. Next I drilled a small hole through thr side of a 2" long piece of a half inch dowel, stuck the twisted ends of the wire through the hole and wrapped it around the dowel. I then wrapped the dowel and wire with electrical tape to keep the wire securely in place....so far it has worked great. I would estimate the wire's guage to be about 22 or perhaps smaller and it works great on both the 1/8th and the 7/64, amsteel blue.

Mike

PS: I am thinking that a slightly larger leader wire as a single strand might work as well if not better, but so far, so good with mine as it is.

[Steve D]

Next I drilled a small hole through thr side of a 2" long piece of a half inch dowel, stuck the twisted ends of the wire through the hole and wrapped it around the dowel. I then wrapped the dowel and wire with electrical tape to keep the wire securely in place.

Now thats a great idea! Wish I'd thought of it last night while making up a couple of pairs of loops...Will definitely have to remember it though - still have loops to make...

[last1up]

Thanks for all that great info. :)

[allene222]

West Marine sells these with smaller diameter and they appear to be uniform. Do they taper them? I can't believe what they charge for those small things. Is there a rule where if you own a boat you also have a million dollars?

I saw a youtube video on making continuous loops for marine use. They have a core and a cover. The cover is made very much like what is shown on these pages. The core is where the strength is and it is multiple loops of a thinner material. On hammocks, you don't need the strength. I test my splices for my boat site, L-36.com using 7/64 Amsteel and it takes a lot of force on a 30:1 winch to break it. It is rated at 1600 pounds and if you are making a continuous loop with it, you have 3000 pound strength.

You can tell if you are stressing it because it gets stiff when it is stressed. So, if you get off your hammock and can hold the line out and it doesn't limp over, you have stressed it. If it acts more like yarn, it hasn't been stressed.

By the way, I saw someone talk about a 3 inch bury. I recommend 60 to 72 diameters of bury. That is plus or minus 3 fid lengths but you guys don't use fids so just do the diameter thing.

Cheers,

Allen

[SilvrSurfr]

Love your website, Allene222, though I wish it was more hammock-friendly. Hammockers use some rope diameters your calculator doesn't cover.

[friartuck]

Using your tutorial I have made three in the last 24 hours. Thanks!!!

[SilvrSurfr]

I've made loops as small as 6 inches in diametre. Certainly not recommended but so far they have held.

I'm guilty of this as well. I add plenty of stitches.

[Ras Billy]

Thanks Opie, you're a gentleman, and a scholar.

[SilvrSurfr]

I re-read this post last night and felt compelled to make a 7/64" Amsteel continuous loop. I don't have any practical application for it at this time, but I'll toss it in the pack just in case.

After I made the loop, I realized I forgot the tapers. Remarkably, it was pretty easy to get the ends of the buries out, taper, and then re-bury.

[goobie]

Thanks Opie, well done as usual! Been making bunches of these out of whatever material I can splice:eek:

Made a few out of amsteel for the hammock suspension, some out of mason line for the tarp

[macworm]

Big thanks for this made a few for myself :)

[orangehero]

Hey guys, just want to clarify a few points about how to make the continuous loop.

The buries are the tails of each end doubled back into itself correct?

Like so:
http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=1961&pictureid=14197

http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=1961&pictureid=14198

http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=1961&pictureid=14199

I hope I have used the word brummel correctly.

I'm trying to make sense of this post:

The usual direction for a locked brummel is the best I can tell you.

Edited to add photo. The buries go in the direction the ends are laying in the photo.

http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=23502&d=1308288292

But maybe I'm understanding it wrong. It's not really clear in the original post as the ends of the tails are out of frame.

[orangehero]

Anyone got a hint? This is the last piece of my suspension I need to get done.

[seadad9903]

the picture you posted is of a brummel, where the interlocking portion is separate from (sticking out at 90*) the loop. in a continuous loop, you use the same interlocking style but it is inline with the loop. in the picture that says "pull the tails tight", the loop is on the bottom and the ends are the lines on the top.

[orangehero]

So, bury goes like this:

http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=1961&pictureid=14270

[gmcttr]

I knew that post would come back to haunt me. Don't double the ends back and do it the way my post (that you quoted) shows.

After you make the brummel from the original post, bury the ends in the direction shown in this photo....

[orangehero]

Ok now I got it. Been waiting a week, but I already made one the wrong way. Hopefully I can tease it apart and bury it right.

Oh and do you send the bury right into the middle of the split in the braid or skip a pair (or more) of strands?

[seadad9903]

ah, sorry about that. I thought i had it right. That'll teach me to start thinking 😏

[gmcttr]

Ok now I got it. Been waiting a week, but I already made one the wrong way. Hopefully I can tease it apart and bury it right.

Oh and do you send the bury right into the middle of the split in the braid or skip a pair (or more) of strands?

If I'm understanding your question, normally you would skip a ~pair and then bury it. I'm guessing you could also "bury right into the middle of the split in the braid" instead of fully forming the brummel. It's the buries that do the work. However, I've always seen the "experts" make it with the brummel and then the bury so that's what I'll stay with.

[Woods Walker]

What do you mean by "taper" it???

[Macca81]

Cut strands out gradually to taper the end from its full thickness to a narrower tip. It makes the transition inside the bury smoother.

[gmcttr]

Taper...

http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=24282&d=1310338164

[photohiker]

Thanks for all the helpful information here.

I've started making some of these for my guylines, tried the locked and the unlocked. Not sure there is much benefit of the locked for a Prussik on a guyling.

Using 14" of 2.2 Zing-It with 1.75" buries, is that enough bury?

http://s15.postimage.org/5cu4l4nfv/loops.jpg

Prussik is a locked loop, and the other one is open.

The larger needle is a #13 Birch Tapestry needle, and the other one I don't know the size, but it is fine for passing the bury. I use a pair of craft pliers to pull the needle through, couldn't do that with my fingers - not enough grip.

[SmokeBait]

Looks good photohiker. 1.75" is plenty of bury.

[sawgrassbrothers]

When i get some time i would like to learn how to splice like that.

[Morgoroth]

Do you leave the ends of the amsteel un-fused?
Or do you fuse them? I guess once you bury the ends you don't have to worry about reeving.

[gmcttr]

Un-fused. In fact, it's best to taper the ends for a smooth transition.

[Morgoroth]

I've been thinking about this and I think you only need one side to have the full bury for strength.

The other side you could just hide the tail with a one or two inch bury and then put the 5"-6" bury on the other side for strength.

I think that's right anyway......

[seadad9903]

I've been thinking about this and I think you only need one side to have the full bury for strength.

The other side you could just hide the tail with a one or two inch bury and then put the 5"-6" bury on the other side for strength.

I think that's right anyway......

You may be right, but I won't take that chance since I usually use them for supporting my weight. For a couple of minutes more work I get peace of mind that the likelihood of it coming apart is small

[Morgoroth]

You may be right, but I won't take that chance since I usually use them for supporting my weight. For a couple of minutes more work I get peace of mind that the likelihood of it coming apart is small

I'm not worried about the time, I'm trying to make a smaller loop that is still strong.

[MAD777]

I've been thinking about this and I think you only need one side to have the full bury for strength.

The other side you could just hide the tail with a one or two inch bury and then put the 5"-6" bury on the other side for strength.

I think that's right anyway......

I believe you're on to something there. I've wanted smaller loops but stuck with the recommended bury length on both sides. Now that you've pointed this out, i can make my loops smaller. Thanks!

[PAHikingTrails]

You need 40" of amsteel to make a 12" continuous loop?!? Wow, that's a lot of rope!

Why not use a triple fisherman's knot? It will save you on half the rope and half the weight?

[Morgoroth]

You need 40" of amsteel to make a 12" continuous loop?!? Wow, that's a lot of rope!

Why not use a triple fisherman's knot? It will save you on half the rope and half the weight?

You can do it with less. You need a total bury of 5" plus 1" taper on one side.
So 2' for the loop and 6" for one bury and probably 2" for the other side.

24" + 6" + 2" = 32"

A double fisherman's will take up about 3" a knot and you need two.
So 24" + 3" + 3" = 32"

So for 2" you get a pretty good boost to strength.

The double fisherman's does not test well for strength retention, but we probably will not max it out either way in this application.

[MAD777]

When you calculate the length of line you need, don't forget to factor in the shrinkage of the line on the outside of the bury. That's usually around 20% of the original length. So, a 5" bury plus 1" taper is 6" but you need about 7-1/2" of line to bury it into because that outside sheath will shrink.

[Morgoroth]

When you calculate the length of line you need, don't forget to factor in the shrinkage of the line on the outside of the bury. That's usually around 20% of the original length. So, a 5" bury plus 1" taper is 6" but you need about 7-1/2" of line to bury it into because that outside sheath will shrink.

Oh yeah, your right. Forgot about that part.
Add a couple inches for that though and you are still not much higher than the fisherman's solution.

[mauhler31]

I'm trying to make my first continuous loop out of 7/64" amsteel, and am having quite a bit of trouble making the bury. I'm using florist wire. My thumbs are starting to feel raw from trying to push the bury over, so I should probably stop for a while. Does anyone have any tips on how to make this easier? I'm wondering if I should get the daho large or x-large splicing needle if it will make it easier.

[MAD777]

I'm trying to make my first continuous loop out of 7/64" amsteel, and am having quite a bit of trouble making the bury. I'm using florist wire. My thumbs are starting to feel raw from trying to push the bury over, so I should probably stop for a while. Does anyone have any tips on how to make this easier? I'm wondering if I should get the daho large or x-large splicing needle if it will make it easier.

Did you add a taper to the end of the tail. That taper is critical and extra time and care making it pays off. Also, don't bunch up the outer layer of the bury too much. It needs to be slightly loose.

[mauhler31]

Did you add a taper to the end of the tail. That taper is critical and extra time and care making it pays off. Also, don't bunch up the outer layer of the bury too much. It needs to be slightly loose.

I did put a taper in. I'm not sure how to make the bury loose. The small 1/2" that I was able to get through is hard as a rock and the section immediately following is narrower.

[MAD777]

Are you grabbing it with the wire in the middle of the taper?

[gmcttr]

Here's a quicky vid I made just to illustrate making a bury. It works the same for whoopie slings, continuous loops, eyes, etc.

I used loop turner, but it's the same for a wire folded in half....http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showpost.php?p=740499&postcount=7

If you have trouble getting the bury started, You can use a pencil point to spread the opening a little.

Hope it helps.

[Morgoroth]

I'm trying to make my first continuous loop out of 7/64" amsteel, and am having quite a bit of trouble making the bury. I'm using florist wire. My thumbs are starting to feel raw from trying to push the bury over, so I should probably stop for a while. Does anyone have any tips on how to make this easier? I'm wondering if I should get the daho large or x-large splicing needle if it will make it easier.

Starting the bury is the hardest part.
I have to work over a strand at a time to get started.
If it bunches up at all in the beginning, it will bind on itself.

[mauhler31]

I just got back from a weekend trip and this time I made the taper a little longer, and that seemed to do the trick. Thanks guys for all the advice!

[Banana]

Thanks Opie! I just followed your original post as my first splicing project. A little Amsteel Blue, a little wire, a little patience and they turned out really nicely. Tonight's project is a pair of whoopie slings with Dutch's whoopie hooks.

[Charlz9mm]

What does it mean to taper?

[raiffnuke]

What does it mean to taper?

Tapering makes the end of the rope thinner. Kind of like a point. Unravel a few stand a ways back and cut them off, also cut the end of the rope at an angle to from a point. This pic may help explain...

http://l-36.com/image/LL4U0075.JPG

[gmcttr]

Another photo of 7/64" amsteel blue tapered...

[Charlz9mm]

Thank you mi amigos.

[greyhound352]

Thanks for sharing the tutorial it worked great for me and I will be trying them out this weekend.

[JaxHiker]

Tapering makes the end of the rope thinner. Kind of like a point. Unravel a few stand a ways back and cut them off, also cut the end of the rope at an angle to from a point. This pic may help explain...

http://l-36.com/image/LL4U0075.JPG

Scissors, eh? So far the only thing I've found to reliably cut amsteel w/o messing it up is a ceramic knife. I've dropped some coin on various scissors but none have done a good job.

[Morgoroth]

Yeah, I have ruined a couple pairs of scissors...

I would suggest a metal knife over scissors if for no other reason than, you can re-sharpen them.

[stoikurt]

I'm trying to make my first continuous loop out of 7/64" amsteel, and am having quite a bit of trouble making the bury. I'm using florist wire. My thumbs are starting to feel raw from trying to push the bury over, so I should probably stop for a while. Does anyone have any tips on how to make this easier? I'm wondering if I should get the daho large or x-large splicing needle if it will make it easier.

I've had a few difficult ones too. My guess is that while tunneling through the inside of the cord I may have accidentally threaded through a few strands and not stayed completely in the center. That would make it very difficult to pull it all through.

[golfpro1286]

Very helpful! Thanks for the pictorial!

[yessirre]

Pic's made it very clear

[bruinfan]

anyone know how to prevent the loop from coming loose.. i attached the loop inside of cinch buckles and they look good, but im still worried that the loop could work its way out somehow over time..
is tape the answer to prevent any undoings?:confused::lol:

[MAD777]

anyone know how to prevent the loop from coming loose.. i attached the loop inside of cinch buckles and they look good, but im still worried that the loop could work its way out somehow over time..
is tape the answer to prevent any undoings?:confused::lol:

My preferred method is to hand sew a few stitches in the bury. Many folks use the locked brummel to hold things together.

[Bubba]

anyone know how to prevent the loop from coming loose.. i attached the loop inside of cinch buckles and they look good, but im still worried that the loop could work its way out somehow over time..
is tape the answer to prevent any undoings?:confused::lol:

Once a continuous loop gets loaded, its not going to unravel without some effort. As Mad777 said, stiching is a good method. Like gmcttr I use a brummel splice and after its gets loaded and is larksheaded or bent around things I have never seen even a hint of it coming apart. To take apart a continuous loop I usually have to pick at it with my finger nails or use something like a small knitting needle. The key for me is to tighten it after I make it. I take the loop, put some biners on it and hang from it to ensure good constriction around the buries, after that its good to go. That's been my experience anyways.

[gmcttr]

^^^...locked brummel or lock stitching (http://www.samsonrope.com/splicing-pdfs/LockStitch_Whipping.pdf)...although I haven't had a problem using a plain brummel or no brummel without stitching.

As usual, inspect your gear.

[bruinfan]

Thanks. I made 5 sets and don't want family to fiddle with the loop and loosen anything..

[slipbobber]

Opie, Thanks for the tutorial. I have not been a member long but I've followed this post for a while and noticed it is 3 years since your OP. Everyone is this a great fourm or what? Great members with great advice!

[UncleClark]

Using the excellent pictures I made up a couple 12" continuous loops today using 7/64 Amsteel. I know that shorter buries are suggested in this thread, but after watching the videos on Sampson Rope, I decided to use 8" buries.

Using 8" buries I found that I needed 20" of Amsteel just for 2 x 8" buries plus about 4" shrinkage allowance in the main loop due to the buries.

So to make a 12" loop I ended needing about 44" total
12" loop requires 24"
Left bury requires 8" + 2" shrinkage = 10"
Right bury requires 8" + 2" shrinkage = 10"

I tapered the ends using a razor blade cutting a shallow angle across the rope. I hope this is OK :confused:

[darkbyrd]

It's a small world. Thanks Opie!

[opie]

Small world indeed.

Nice to see this thread still being useful.

[rocketBoy]

Is there any problem using a Sharpie to make the marks on the amsteel? When I was climbing I was advised not to use ink to mark ropes because the ink could weaken the rope. Any thoughts?

[gmcttr]

Many of us have been marking amsteel with a Sharpie for years. Never heard of a problem.

[jjschaf]

Very helpful tutorial! Thanks!

[Downhill Trucker]

What's the smallest continuous loops anyone has done with Amsteel? I did some really small ones with a 3" bury on each side and I'm hoping they will hold up. I was thinking of putting some stitches through the burys. They are load bearing on my hammock.

Thanks for any help.

[BLZ2DWL]

Great thread. Thanks!

[AngryDaddyBird]

This was very helpful for me! Thanks.

[IDJAY]

Very Clear instructions. Thanks for the tutorial.

[Ghillieshot]

Sweet. Very clear and detailed pictures and post. Thanks mate. Just finished a set.

[jreinhardt]

First, thanks to everyone that has contributed to this thread. It has been incredibly helpful. A month ago I could barely spell hammock - now I own 2 and am doing some DIY stuff.

My comments below are things I learned in my first efforts to splice 1.75mm cord (Zing It) - hopefully it will help other new guys.

Initial test efforts went well. Made 2 loops using homemade tool (22 gauge wire on a 4" dowel rod - Then things went south on the next few efforts! Summary of issues:

1. Extremely had to pull cord for pass-throughs and bury
2. Difficulty in threading tool through core of cord.
3. Pulled so hard on tool that I broke 22 gauge wire.
4. Tested my first loops and they held fine. Gave it to my 3 year old granddaughter to play with and within 5 minutes she had both loops out (they had 4" buries).

After a fair amount of experimentation ( not necessarily in order) here is what I found to make this task easy and fun for me:

1. Found that 20 gauge steel wire works best for me. 22 gauge was too small and didn't open the core channel enough. 18 gauge was too big and hard to thread through the cord core.

2. When preparing for a cord "pass through" I insert my tool and then worked it around to enlarge the hole so that the cord passing through would go easily.

3. I know many have said you don't need to taper Zing It, But I found it advantageous to do so for different reasons. I "shredded" the last 1/2" with a tack and cut away about 40% of the shredded strands. I then insert just the shredded portion of the cord in my tool for pull-throughs or buries. This reduces pulling effort dramatically.

4. Prior to inserting my tool to start a bury I "massage" the cord in the bury area to loosen it up. (This stuff works just like a Chinese Finger Puzzle!) I then insert my tool and get it established in the center of the cord, while continuously "massaging" the cord to loosen and open it up. When I get to the exit with my tool I again enlarge the hole for easy entrance of the bury.

5. Before beginning my bury pull I again insert just the shredded strands in my tool and slowly pull the tool to the bury opening and start the cord into the hole. I again "massage" the cord on my tool and then begin the pull by holding the junction of the start of the bury. Normally, I can continue to hold in that area and the pull goes through easily. I may have to "massage" the cord on occasion to keep it moving.

6. Now for something that may be questionable or a good idea! (Let me know.) In order to keep my grand daughter from taking apart my loops I used some Super Glue in the following way.

A. Milk the cord down on the bury so that only the shredded part of the cord shows. Put just a little liquid Super Glue on the shredded portion. Then rapidly and with force, milk the rest of the cord into position. If you do it slowly the glue will grab the cord and it will never get "milked" down all of the way.

B. Put a drop of liquid Super Glue on the junction of the loop and bury. It will soak in. -- And granddaughters can't take it apart now. (Which is what I wanted in the beginning.)

Hope this helps someone. Comments and suggestions welcome.

[jreinhardt]

Okay, now I know how to do a locked brummel with fixed eye and I can get rid of my Super Glue. I'm learning - just not quickly!

[Knotty]

Not sure but I wonder if the super glue would cause the loads to localize instead of being distributed along the bury?

[snellvillehammock]

Thanks Opie...you make splicing look so easy

[Zilla]

I agree with bubba once the loop goes under a good load it is unlikely to unravel.I also had alot of problems with the 7/64 as far as tapering and pulling it thru the bury and what i did was i purchased some amsteel blue 1/8 in, it is only one size bigger and runs 9 cents a foot more than 7/64, instead of using a home made fish tool i bought a selma splicing fid. They run for $7.99 and can be found at ubraidit.com, with these you dont have to taper the enda at all and you get more hold in the bury that way,you just have to reverse the way you go into your splice.It is really easy and once you get it down you will want to keep making these even if you dont need them! If you want to go this route , when you go to the website ( ubraidit.com ) just buy the smallest selma fid they offer, it may say for 3/16 but just ignore that and get the smallest one they have and it will work great , these fids are the nicest rope splicing tools out there

[darkbyrd]

I'm a big fan of my loop turner I bought at wal-mart in the craft section. A little tougher with zing-it, but great for 7/64.

[ezhiker]

According to Samson, The taper is needed for maximum strength in the splice, to avoid too sharp a transition, which would degrade the splice.

[Zilla]

It is not exactly a taper that is required,sometimes they word it different but alot of splicers and speacialty shops dont taper ,what they do is cut the ends on a small angle,about a 45 degree angle,this allows a smooth transition while also saving on cord. I go around 350lbs and would trust my diy set up over anything on the market provided we are talking about the sme size cord setup.

Before i started using the selma fids and making my own whoopies i did alot of research,i really meen alot , I dont doubt that you read that on a samsom website and if it gives you a better piece of mind than by all means taper, i dont think it is that big a deal.
SAEDY

[demonfurbie]

new here but for my fishing tool i use some floral wire ... its plastic coated so it doesnt snag and its cheap

http://www.amazon.com/22-GAUGE-PADDLE-WIRE-GREEN/dp/B001K7QAYM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1377550216&sr=8-1&keywords=floral+wire

ya can get slightly bigger gauges, and most hobby stores and some walmarts carry it

[Higbean]

So cool. Glad I saw this.

[SimonMc]

So for those who use the locked brummel in their loops I am wondering how they have gone long term? Any issues?

I have got in some new rope here in Australia and the loops without the locked brummel seem to be easy to unravel, when not loaded, at least more so than the other rope I used.

I have some destruction testing of this rope organised for whoopie slings etc so might do one for the loop with a locked brummel.

[gmcttr]

...I have some destruction testing of this rope organised for whoopie slings etc so might do one for the loop with a locked brummel.

Please do. I'd love to see the results comparing continuous loops with and without a locked brummel.

In the mean time, you can use lock stitching (http://www.samsonrope.com/Documents/Splice%20Instructions/Lock%20Stitching%20Whipping%20Seizing%20Procedures _SEPT2012_WEB.pdf) to protect your loops when unloaded.

[SimonMc]

Please do. I'd love to see the results comparing continuous loops with and without a locked brummel.

In the mean time, you can use lock stitching (http://www.samsonrope.com/Documents/Splice%20Instructions/Lock%20Stitching%20Whipping%20Seizing%20Procedures _SEPT2012_WEB.pdf) to protect your loops when unloaded.

Thanks mate, will keep you posted on the testing. I have come across two local UHMWPE ropes like Amsteel Blue, one has a thicker coating and is more stiff and plastic feeling - still works well though and is a high quality rope. The other has a more natural feel, and is my preference, rated a little less, much easier to splice and all the locked brummels and whoopies seem to hold well but the continuous loop not so well.

I am going to be offering this rope for sale over here but I first want to make sure it is going to do the job.

[Syrrka]

Great thread! I just did my first continuous loop splices with the 8 strand amsteel. The first try I had a one inch "eye" (for lack of a better word) between the two buries...??? I think I pulled on the other end of the cord when pulling the buries through rather than milking it. It was a VERY hard pull, so that is when I found this thread and learned about tapers. yay. I was able to pull the buries out and start all over. This time there was no space between the buries, it looked a little bumpy, but I thought I could sew that area if it came to it.
I grabbed another piece of rope and using the same measurements....tried again. This time with the tapers and the correct gauge wire, it was loads easier and the bury points looked really good. I don't know what happened, but the loop was smaller than the first one by about 1/2 inch.....

Anyway, I am taking a break (my hands hurt) and BTW, black amsteel goes grey and your hands turn blackish.... BUT, I am quite proud of my attempt and willing to try again. I am making a kid sized (two years old) 5 ft long tablecloth (apple green) hammock and after I get the loops down, I want to make a portable hammock stand ala TurtleLady. I think it will make a great Birthday prezzie for my surrogate grandson. :)

Love this forum!

[DRobertson]

I think I'll try this!

[shipsgunner]

Actually, I have found pulling a wire out of the wife's whisk was fantastic for this type of work. Very stiff and very small diameter and when folded in half, about 10"...I have done Zing-It, 7/64 and 1/8" with it. All came out pretty good. A little tight with the 1.75mm Zing it stuff but it still works.

Only issue of concern was the "Himalayan Death Stare" from the wife when she realized it was her whisk that became the donor for all those neat little rope products I was making... RUN Forest RUUUNNNN!

SG

[ScottyDale]

Been debating what to use for my fishing tool up to this point. After reading SG's recent post I found myself digging through the kitchen drawers. Found the whisk. Hair stood up on the back of my neck and opted for a trip to the dollar aisle at Albertsons. You're a brave man Gunner!

[Tankosl]

Scotty Dale.......I think I'd be with you on that one......

You know what would happen.......you go to the back of that long forgotten drawer.......find just the implement you can adapt...........then the awkward explanation to the wife when she reminds you that was a wedding present from her mother.........


Been debating what to use for my fishing tool up to this point. After reading SG's recent post I found myself digging through the kitchen drawers. Found the whisk. Hair stood up on the back of my neck and opted for a trip to the dollar aisle at Albertsons. You're a brave man Gunner!

[Jtupnsmoke]

I use a loop Turner for amsteel and a small sewing needle for zing it. Amsteel is a breeze if you taper correctly. Zing it can be a pain since it's so small. I've found if you push the outer layer instead of pulling the inner, then it's less likely to pull out of your splicing tool.

[Darth Hanger]

I'm interested in making some 12'' continuous loops from 1/8 (and up) thickness of Amsteel. Any difference in the bury length? or length of cordage that you begin with? Or can I use the same formula (step-by-step) at the beginning of this thread(post)???

[gmcttr]

I'm interested in making some 12'' continuous loops from 1/8 (and up) thickness of Amsteel. Any difference in the bury length? or length of cordage that you begin with? Or can I use the same formula (step-by-step) at the beginning of this thread(post)???

Bury lengths are diameter dependent. Use Samson Ropes instructions for an end-to-end splice (http://www.samsonrope.com/Documents/Splice%20Instructions/12Strand_C2_End%20for%20End_JUL2012_WEB.pdf).

[skwatupu]

Searched the forum and haven't found an example mentioned, so this thread seems like the best place to ask.

Has anyone used two continuous loops instead of rings/cinch buckles with 1" webbing for adjustable suspension?

Having never worked with continuous loop, is it worth the effort to make a couple and try? I have the materials. Thoughts?

[FreedomVan]

I do seem to recall a thread on this, but I wouldn't know what terms to search for. I think the consensus was that it would be a bad idea due to lack of friction or something. More knowledgable folks will chime in I'm sure, but I do think it's been discussed, and I've pondered it myself.

[gmcttr]

..Has anyone used two continuous loops instead of rings/cinch buckles with 1" webbing for adjustable suspension? ...

If you're talking about using two CL's instead of two rings to form a cinch for webbing, it does not work at all. I tried it in response to another member asking. I'm having no luck with search terms either.

[Cubanredneck]

nice tutorial

[hikerdelita]

this is exactly what I need to do first. Thanks for making it so clear and easy to find!

[rodroc]

That looks very good. Thanks for sharing these pictures. I don't think there should be any problems with those knots.

[Birch]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/22/amavunem.jpg thanks for the help. Flawless results using the slide show. Thanks.

[joshjv]

made one at lunch today, was surprised how easy it was! more tonight!

[Coldaddy]

Had a great time making a couple of these 12'' loops. My wife and daughters watched me make the 2nd. They were duly impressed (or they we pretending and putting up with their strange dad). Thanks for sharing the great information!

[brooklynkayak]

I came across this pdf using a better locking method. Less chance of anything working loose with the double buries.
I suspect, but have not tested that this would make a more reliable continuous loop.

I've made few and they were not not that much harder to make.

http://www.cofc.co.nz/docs/dyneema-spectra-splicing-manual.pdf

[silentorpheus]

I came across this pdf using a better locking method. Less chance of anything working loose with the double buries.
I suspect, but have not tested that this would make a more reliable continuous loop.

I've made few and they were not not that much harder to make.

http://www.cofc.co.nz/docs/dyneema-spectra-splicing-manual.pdf

Interesting.

Though I wonder - in step 7, when you go to bury the remainder of the line end, why they suggest skipping 5 holes instead of starting the bury close to there the last pass through came out. By doing it their way, you end up with a small portion of the rope that's outside the bury … that seems like it could snag on something and pull out your bury.

[brooklynkayak]

Re: "why they suggest skipping 5 holes",
I see your point, but I find the finished splice so smooth at the brummel that it is less likely to snag than the method used in the original post.
I have had the bury work it's way partially out using the original method in this post.

I was using the same locked brummel that is common with end loops, but this required a twist at the pass-through to make sure that one end was buried into the other, instead of buried back into itself, which is a mistake I've seen a lot of people with the the locked brummel method. There is even a popular youtube video that shows ends buried back into themselves which creates a weak spot at the locked brummel.

The twist to overcome this issue creates a lump at the brummel which doesn't happen with the method in the PDF.

[gmcttr]

I came across this pdf using a better locking method.

For clarity, this is essentially a brummel splice (which should actually have more pass throughs to be correct).

Unfortunately, the correct terminology is not used frequently. A brummel eye splice is made with several pass throughs of the working end through the standing end followed with the bury. What is most commonly used is incorrectly referred to as a brummel but is actually an eye splice with a locked brummel made by passing the working end through the standing end followed by the standing end being passed through the working end and then the bury.

Clear as mud?:laugh:

With all of that said, I like this idea. Thanks for posting it.

[brooklynkayak]

Thanks gmcttr, I re-read my post and corrected much of what I wrote.
I was trying to quickly post and work at the same time:-)

[dtp2c111]

I've found that instead of pulling one side of the bury through then the other that I sometimes pull the two parts apart and am left with a space between where the two ropes are suppose to be tightly put together. Instead I fish both ends through then pull right before milking both buries at the same time as the last step.
Hope this helps someone else.

Also, when attached to a channeled hammock, a loop larksheaded through must always have something like a binder to keep the loop from slipping out right?

[gmcttr]

I've never used any type of "binder" to keep a larks headed continuous loop or whoopie sling in place. Amsteel will take enough of a set to stay put.

[ROADGUNNER]

awesome, thank you

[Thumbs]

I've never used any type of "binder" to keep a larks headed continuous loop or whoopie sling in place. Amsteel will take enough of a set to stay put.

+1. I did one locked loop and none of the rest of mine have been locked and none have slipped. Once they are weighted, they kind of lock themselves.

[Ridge_Dog]

H8jnYHljddM

I did a You Tube video on this.

[gmcttr]

Technically 50% of the strands are cut when making the taper to maximize the ultimate strength of the splice...4 for 7/64" amsteel.

While many CL's are made the way you show, I prefer to use the method shown in the first post of this thread where a false "locked brummel" is not used. A true locked brummel in an eye splice serves the purpose of preventing the buries from backing out under no load conditions and the buries create the splices' strength.

With the false locked brummel in a CL the "lock" is the only thing giving the splice strength and the buries only serve to keep the amsteel from unraveling allowing the "lock" to pull apart. This makes a slightly weaker splice. It's still sufficient for our purposes but not as strong as it could be.

[Ridge_Dog]

Technically 50% of the strands are cut when making the taper to maximize the ultimate strength of the splice...4 for 7/64" amsteel.

While many CL's are made the way you show, I prefer to use the method shown in the first post of this thread where a false "locked brummel" is not used. A true locked brummel in an eye splice serves the purpose of preventing the buries from backing out under no load conditions and the buries create the splices' strength.

With the false locked brummel in a CL the "lock" is the only thing giving the splice strength and the buries only serve to keep the amsteel from unraveling allowing the "lock" to pull apart. This makes a slightly weaker splice. It's still sufficient for our purposes but not as strong as it could be.


Yep...made it exactly the way they are made from Dutch. Works great for hammocks and holds well at my 225 lbs. Really the Taper is used to make it easier while burying it. I know if no taper is used it supposedly makes a weak point. I don't think hanging at 225lbs is going to matter. My ends bury at about 5 inches.Actually used a tensile test gage to pull one apart. Got to the equivalent of 1980 lbs. Plenty to hold us in a hammock.

I can also argue that when you DIY you take a risk. Period. The pictorial is great so are all the vids.