JRB vs Warbonnet top quilt

[voivalin]

Can You help me please. I'm thinking to order Blackbird with under quilt from Warbonnet. That is what I need. But because of the mailing from USA to Finland I could order Black Mamba top quilt with same order. Or I could choose to order JRB top quilt with some extra stuff (hood and sleeves) later.

I like the Black mamba because it is simple. But if JRB does what it says, it would be great multipurpose system. But I have learned at this age that "do all" is not always good for nothing. Are there any caveats in JRB system. Does anyone use all those nice options (down to earth omintape etc.) constantly in real world? Or is the truth that Snivellers are used mostly as a simple over quilts?

For example In my experience omni-tape does not work very well after few years of use when it gets old and if the gear's usability is based on omni-tape in my opinion that is not a good thing.

In one sentence: Should I bother to order JRB with it's many options or to get it on with Black mamba's simplicity?

Here are the contenders:

The Rocky Mountain Sniveller (Long) weighs 28 oz., comes with a 1.5 oz. silnyl compression sack, and can be stuffed to 8”x8”x10”; Thickness 3".

Black Mamba Winter Long rated 0 F; Thickness 3"; Weight of the down 17 oz; Weight 27.8 oz

And links are:

http://www.jacksrbetter.com/Wearable%20Quilts.htm

http://warbonnetoutdoors.com/topquilt.php

[angrysparrow]

You aren't going to get many real-experience opinions about the Mamba, because he's only been making them for a couple of weeks.

The usefulness of the JRB depends on whether or not you actually wear it. If you do, then it is indeed a fine setup that saves weight.

I think the sleeves and hood are more than worth the money, because of their versatility.

[Take-a-knee]

Ask this guy:

http://www.francistapon.com/Travels/Continental-Divide-Trail/CDT-Gear-List

He started in New Mexico in the spring with a No Sniveler and was freezing, JRB did a "rush" order on the first Rocky Mountain No Sniveler (appropriately named) and got it to him. It was his sleeping quilt and warm garment for a 6000 mile hike up the spine of the rockies and back south. That head hole rocks. I'm considering tapering the footbox on my RMNS, as I never plan to use it as an UQ. It would save a couple of ounces maybe and help keep my toes warm, it would also be a LOT easier to do than to put a head hole in a Mamba. That head hole ROCKS!

[Cannibal]

I own and have used both. Well, I've got the 3-Season Black Mamba (the BM :lol:) not the Winter model. I have used my RMS extensively and have been very, very pleased with it. The finished Black Mamba design I've only been using for a couple of months now.

Totally agree with angrysparrow, depends on your style. I just posted this in another thread, but I have not really used the head-hole of the RMS that often. The few times I have used it, it has been marvelous. But, I'm too scared of getting it close to the fire at camp. If you aren't a fire-person, then the RMS is a FANTASTIC quilt. I don't sleep on the ground and I'm a still sleeper, so I've never had use for the wings. I do have a couple of the hoods that I very much like. Tis true that when it comes to versatility, the Jacks do a pretty bang-up job. :cool:

Like you, I am a big fan of simplicity in some of my set-ups. I like the weight savings simple things bring me and the Black Mamba is certainly no exception there. The footbox is very roomy. I don't know if it has larger dimensions than the footbox that can be made with the JRB quilts, but it sure feels roomier. It was built to be a topquilt and only a topquilt and I believe it excels in the role. I've been able to go well below the rating on the 3-Season while staying very warm. Finding a better quality topquilt will be no easy task.

You'll get a very high quality product either way you decide to go. Both of these shops are on most people's short list. My preference is towards the Black Mambas due to their reduced weight for the same, if not more, amount of heat retention. Good luck with your decision!

[Roadtorque]

I dont have the JRB quilt you are looking at but based off the JRB gear I do own it is top notch and would be hard to beat. TQ,UQ, Sharpe all in one is hard to beat.

[headchange4u]

I'm sure that you would be extremely happy (and warm) with either UQ. IMHO any piece of gear that can serve more than one purpose gets a +1 in my book.

[Harpo63]

Those thoughts were going thru my head when I was trying to figure out what overall "system" works for my style of camping. I ended up with a 3 season black mamba (funny, Cannibal, I hope nobody makes a piece of equipment that has the acronyms RUNS:scared:) and a down vest. I plan to purchase the JRB down sleeves. For what I do, this gives me the most versatility.

You brought up another important point- shipping to Finland from the states. Guess thats something to check out too, but I would gladly pay more if it meant getting what I really wanted.

[Shug]

Got a JRB HR and a prototype Mamba ... see my avatar ... it has a head-hole.!!!!
Shug
Love them both .... each for different temps.

[ikemouser]

You aren't going to get many real-experience opinions about the Mamba, because he's only been making them for a couple of weeks.

The usefulness of the JRB depends on whether or not you actually wear it. If you do, then it is indeed a fine setup that saves weight.

I think the sleeves and hood are more than worth the money, because of their versatility.

I do wear mine, it prevents me from having to lug around my nearly 2 lb north face fleece jacket in the winter time. I mainly wear it during camp when im setting up my stuff, i have two so i attach my under quilt and just wear the tq til im ready to goto bed. It does help keep you warm, i only wish it had better closures for the arms, like a drawstring so you could cinch it tight around the arms ( i think this would boost its wearable temp range alot), this is a mod i will do in the future. when im ready to goto bed, i just slip it off and put it in my hammock for the tq. I also use it for night hiking, but wear a patagonia houdini windshirt over it to protect it (i recommend doing something similar, as you dont want thorns tearing up your quilt).

[ikemouser]

Got a JRB HR and a prototype Mamba ... see my avatar ... it has a head-hole.!!!!
Shug
Love them both .... each for different temps.

I assume the mamba is for the coldest of the cold?

[ikemouser]

I own and have used both. Well, I've got the 3-Season Black Mamba (the BM :lol:) not the Winter model. I have used my RMS extensively and have been very, very pleased with it. The finished Black Mamba design I've only been using for a couple of months now.

Totally agree with angrysparrow, depends on your style. I just posted this in another thread, but I have not really used the head-hole of the RMS that often. The few times I have used it, it has been marvelous. But, I'm too scared of getting it close to the fire at camp. If you aren't a fire-person, then the RMS is a FANTASTIC quilt. I don't sleep on the ground and I'm a still sleeper, so I've never had use for the wings. I do have a couple of the hoods that I very much like. Tis true that when it comes to versatility, the Jacks do a pretty bang-up job. :cool:

Like you, I am a big fan of simplicity in some of my set-ups. I like the weight savings simple things bring me and the Black Mamba is certainly no exception there. The footbox is very roomy. I don't know if it has larger dimensions than the footbox that can be made with the JRB quilts, but it sure feels roomier. It was built to be a topquilt and only a topquilt and I believe it excels in the role. I've been able to go well below the rating on the 3-Season while staying very warm. Finding a better quality topquilt will be no easy task.

You'll get a very high quality product either way you decide to go. Both of these shops are on most people's short list. My preference is towards the Black Mambas due to their reduced weight for the same, if not more, amount of heat retention. Good luck with your decision!

I would like to get a black mamba made with a head-hole (drawstring so you can cinch it around your neck). That would be my ultimate tq probably, but i have yet to actually see a mamba in person, so still waiting.

[MedicineMan]

so far most important point made is that the Mamba is hammock specific, intended to be used with an UQ....versus the JRB which can be splayed out flat and square and used on the bed at home too if you want...the Jacks offer a system as does Warbonnet--you have to decide which system you want. The Jack system is as stated above more variable, the Mamba probably lighter for a specific use. You can go to ground with a Mamba, dont think you cant but it is a tighter fit and you wont be rolling around as much as you can say under a Hudson River....personal choice here, just like religeon!!

[Coldspring]

Get the Mamba and save yourself on shipping.

Jacks use 7" wide baffles vs. 5" baffles on the Warbonnet. Warbonnets are stuffed full of down and it won't shift around causing cold spots like the Jacks' underfilled quilts do. The Warbonnet footbox is far superior to the drawstring footbox on the Jacks', which requires a sock to keep cold air from cold air drafting.

[Just Jeff]

I have absolutely no problem with the JRB footboxes. If I want to cinch it up tight, I just wrap the drawstring around the bottom and get no drafts whatsoever. Never had a problem with it, ever. Actually, I think it's an advantage b/c in the summer I'll leave a smaller opening so I can stick my feet out when I need to cool off...can't do that with most other quilts or bags.

Re: the underfill...you can always request an overstuff if you think the stock is inadequate.

Not knocking the Warbonnet b/c I haven't tried it yet, but I've got four JRB quilts, and have had two of them for over five years, and I haven't had the problems you're so adamant about. (I did send the first two back for an overstuff, but JRB has now made that amount standard.)

[angrysparrow]

Warbonnets are stuffed full of down and it won't shift around causing cold spots like the Jacks' underfilled quilts do. The Warbonnet footbox is far superior to the drawstring footbox on the Jacks', which requires a sock to keep cold air from cold air drafting.

That's unfair, Coldspring.

There are literally hundreds of people that have no problem with the JRB footbox closure, and the thousands of warm nights spent under those quilts is at odds with your opinion.

I'm certain that the Mamba is a fine design, well executed. But that doesn't make the JRB design less, somehow.

There are a lot of hangers, and there is a lot of variation among those hangers. One design is not perfect for everyone...

[Just Jeff]

Voivalin - I often wear my JRB No Sniveller. I usually wear my raingear over it so the quilt doesn't get dirty, and if I get an ember on it the raincoat will be much cheaper to replace than the quilt. It's really great for trips that are just a bit colder than I planned for...I always have backup, w/o carrying the bulk and weight of an extra jacket.

[Cannibal]

My coldest recorded temp (-17F) was under a JRB RMS. Not a thing wrong with that quilt IMO. I'm sure the WB Winter Black Mambas will allow me to go just as low, but I can't knock a quilt that will take me that low with such relative comfort.

A big part of my preference for the Black Mambas is because I don't need the flexibility of being able to use the quilt as a topquilt or underquilt because I use the Yetis almost exclusively for underquilts. A dedicated topquilt just makes more sense in conjunction with the rest of my set-up.

I will promise you this much about the RMS, you'll never see mine in the "For Sale" forum. Nope, it's mine and I'm keepin it! :cool:
Then again, you won't see any of my Warbonnet quilts there either. Basically, just don't look for my stuff in that forum. :laugh:

[MedicineMan]

agreeing with AS, the issue is not build quality at all. I too am blessed with several JRB quilts and love them all. Slept under a mt.rogers this afternoon in fact. The issue of inadaquate amounts of fill is also moot in my eyes...from what I've seen ALL of our industries (Te-wa,WB,Jacks,Speers,etc) provide more than adaquate fill and more than that if you insist. The comparable issue is intent of use. If I want to be able to wear my TQ then no doubt the Jacks have the advantage; if abs. efficiency in weight carried for a TQ them Mamba wins.

[Beast 71]

I use a JRB quilt on my WBBB and it works perfectly. But, by judging by the usefulness and design of the WBBB, I'm sure anything that Brandon makes is probably fist rate. So, I think you have to ask yourself if you want a head hole or not?

[voivalin]

I have been pondering and pondering.

I like the idea to get up in the morning and take My warm over quilt with me to keep me warm during breakfast. Then at the evening it would be very nice to be dressed up warmly and sit down watch for example sunset. And also there would be no need to take extra layer of clothes with Me for warmth if I could use top quilt as a jacket if the colder weather hits by suprise.

But I'm bit worried that when using my sleeping system as an extra clothing it could get damp. And that would not be nice to use damp top quilt during night. So even if there would be need for extra clothing the weather may be too wet or the user can be too sweaty for using top quilt as an extra clothing.

Are those few times when I could use Jack's-R-Better quilt as clothing enough to purchase their top quilt - that is the question.

[Cannibal]

Are those few times when I could use JackR'Better quilt as clothing enough to purchase their top quilt - that is the question.
You are the only one that can answer that question. ;)

[Just Jeff]

Yep - you gotta figure out what works for you.

Re: the damp TQ, I don't put it on until I've cooled down from hiking, and I don't spend much time around camp in it before I turn in. Just my style of hiking. I think sitting around for a sunset, with the NS under a rain jacket, would leave your TQ in fine condition for sleeping. I wouldn't want to hike in it, chop firewood, or wear it like that when it was actually raining.

Works for me...the NS is one of the few pieces of gear that comes on nearly every trip with me.

[tomsawyer222]

also depends on what clothing you are already using... if you have warm clothing and dont need to wear your top quilt in camp the the head hole is a mute point

the dedicated footbox is warmer then the cinch cord option and on the quilt i have i believe the velcro on the foot box is more trouble then its worth it sticks to everything but i wear wool stuff but i feel it would stick to synthetics too.

unfortunately there is alot of people here who love Jacks R better and dont have alot of experience with brandons new quilts so you are going to get alot of people saying Jacks for that reason

Just one word to the wise if you are using your top quilt as a camp jacket then you are taking a risk that you may not have it for sleeping so many things happen in camp and if you cant do all of them with the quilt on then a jacket would be better I personally like to keep my sleep stuff separate its just safer (Winter)

[Harpo63]

unfortunately there is alot of people here who love Jacks R better and dont have alot of experience with brandons new quilts so you are going to get alot of people saying Jacks for that reason


I dont have any JRB stuff yet, and just got a Black Mamba TQ. Recently got a KAQ. But just from learning from everyone on this site- ALL the hammock gear makers that frequent this site make VERY GOOD QUALITY products. Its not whether something is better than something else, its which of these quality products work best for my style of hammock camping?

[voivalin]

I ordered whole set from Warbonnet (Blackbird, Superfly, doors, UQ, TQ). Simplicity is the key factor for me. When I go to sleep I like it to be as simple as possible, just get in and under Top Quilt no modifications no extra hassle.

Other consideration was warmth. I have been building rig from Hennessy hammock for temperatures as low as -35 C. I have succeeded. But system is too heavy. I hope Warbonnet will be almost as warm and much lighter and simpler to use. If all goes well I will be cross country skiing with pulk in Lapland for 14 days at weeks 14 and 15. Quite north, norther than polar circle. There will be nights when temperature drops to -25 C, but propably not much under that. At daytimes it can be + 5-10 C and very sunny.

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=68.045083,28.678436&spn=0.395863,1.781158&t=h&z=10

Thanks again, Your answers helpped Me a lot! :D

P.S. Also if all goes well there will be lots of pictures from my trip and hanging sites here in Hammock forums when I come back. Maybe even a small review about Warbonnet Blackbird in winter use.

[Just Jeff]

Sounds like a great trip, and I'm sure you'll be happy with your purchase. Definitely looking forward to your report and pics!

[Shug]

Hei Hei....
You will be good to go with that set up ... I am!!! Minnesota and Finland are very comparable temp wise.
Have a terrific trip...
Shug

[LyttleBryan]

I'm one of those people that likes to have something that fills one role very well. that's why I like the Black Mamba. It functions as a TQ incredibly well. Truth be told in warmer temperatures I could probably use the Black Mamba on the ground when drafts aren't as impacting.

I've never owned a JRB quilt, but I've never found a piece of gear that fills two roles as good as one piece of gear that was designed to fill one role, and only one role. I understand a lot of people really love having the wearable quilt functionality, but the thought of trying to put that wearable quilt on at 3am to answer the call of nature isn't exactly a positive one for me. Therefore I'll carry my down jacket and a top quilt.

[east_stingray]

Brandon made the Black Mamba with design characteristics from an Ultra20 I sent him. I sent with it a list of the things I thought were weaknesses with the GoLite design. From what I gather, he looked over the Ultra20 (which is pretty popular here), took my suggestions and those from others on the site into consideration, and came out with a stellar product. I'd go with the Mamba all the way. I love my Ultra20, and he seems to have improved on most of its weak points.

[BlackGoat]

I'm one of those people that likes to have something that fills one role very well. that's why I like the Black Mamba. It functions as a TQ incredibly well. Truth be told in warmer temperatures I could probably use the Black Mamba on the ground when drafts aren't as impacting.

I've never owned a JRB quilt, but I've never found a piece of gear that fills two roles as good as one piece of gear that was designed to fill one role, and only one role. I understand a lot of people really love having the wearable quilt functionality, but the thought of trying to put that wearable quilt on at 3am to answer the call of nature isn't exactly a positive one for me. Therefore I'll carry my down jacket and a top quilt.


Is the Black Mamba too narrow to use comfortably on the ground? I am in an out of AT shelters depending on the weather and my mood, it would be nice if it would work for both. Any opinions on the width?

dg

[warbonnetguy]

it would probably work for me (5'10", 170#) there's enough side coverage if you lay on your back, if you lay fetal on the ground you might get drafts. it's 47-48 at the head end tapering to 42 at the foot. would be considered a narrow ground quilt, but the jrb's are 48" wide and are used by some ground users. i think many nunataks and the golite ultra are closer to 55 wide or so

[Cannibal]

If I got some of that yellow tape that says "Wide Load" and ran it down the sides of the Black Mamba, I might be able to use it on the ground. :D

[Peter_pan]

A couple notes of clarity...

First a sewn in foot box is no warmer than a cinched end foot box that is fully closed with the wrapping of the cinch cord,..There is absolutely no air leak under these conditions... A sewn in foot box may be more convient... But it trades off tremperature comfort in warmer weather for that convience...The JRB standard foot box capability (omni tape and draw cord) allows one to fully vent feet while still in a leg tube , or half vent or quarter vent as ones comfort varies in the upper end of temp uses.... It also allows for full flat use when desired...Sewn in foot box, although not a recommended approach, is an available modification on JRB quilts.

The title of this thread causes over simplification...

JRB makes 23 quilts models and lengths...They allow for customers to chose summer, three season and or winter weights as well as provide for users of different heights...

There are fractional quilts and fractional quilts that convert to full length UQ, so one does not have to choose 2/3 or full length...

There are quilts specifically designed for the ground dwellers, The recently released Sierra Sniveller and the upcoming High Sierra Sniveller ... At a full 52 inches wide shoulders thru the hip to thigh then tapering to 42 inches...Much better tuck for ground sleepers and clearly better coverage for ground side sleepers...

There are quilts for the much larger and taller folks...Large enough that many use them as quilts for two...

There are quilts with features that match right up to HHs.

There are quilts several with wearable designs to let those whoe desire to go lighter to use them as camp wear and reduce extra items in shoulder seasons.

There are plain vanilla economy models that still excell as either UQ or TQ for greater flexibility for thier owners.

There is no one perfect quilt for all folk and every circumstance... It is all about customer options.

Pan

[warbonnetguy]

sure as recently noted there are pros associated with cinched-end footboxes, and cons associated with mummy-style ones, but it goes the other way too, there are also cons with the rectangular quilt and pros for the mummy-style.

here's what i can think of off the top of my head.

a rectangular quilt with drawcord closure uses more material and more down to replace the round panel at the end of a round bottom footbox. for instance on a rectangular quilt, the portion that would be equivalent to the round panel of a round-bottom footbox is 1 baffle x the width of the quilt (7"x 42" or 48"). according to my math, it uses about 2 times as much fabric and down to enclose the end of the quilt. when you include that with omnitape and drawcord and cordlocks it's going to be close to 3/4-1 oz for a 3 season quilt, so that's an extra 0.75-1 oz of overfill you could spread around with no weight gain.

there's no velcro to snag your socks or pick up debris, which is a feature i'm very fond of.

you don't have to worry about what to do with the 4' of cord hanging off the end of your footbox when it's cinched.

the footbox is less bulky, from an aesthetic point of view i personally think it's a cleaner more sophisticated look. some care about that some don't.

things have been moving in the direction of dedicated uq/tq for awhile now, and a mummy-style footbox is a nice feature on a dedicated tq (imo). venting the footbox is something you can't do, so you have to ask yourself if that's a feature you need. personally my feet would overheat last of all, and i have never had an issue with only one part of my body over heating, if i get hot i can throw the tq off my torso some and my whole body cools down, you can always pull a leg out of the footbox. all topquilts can be vented regardless of weather the footbox is permenent or tied.

due to the avail choices, the head-hole thing is a difference, although there is no reason a mummy-style quilt couldn't be designed with one. a closed footbox at one end and open edge at the other is still plenty of width to cover a even a big belly.

the mamba does have a neck closure at the head end which does a really nice job of tensioning the sides of the quilt under your body, which enhances it's tuck by helping to keep it tucked better, and makes for a signifigantly more efficient seal around the neck, and also keeps the quilt snug under your chin which keeps you from breathing all over it so much. it really makes alot more of a difference than you'd imagine.

[Just Jeff]

I'm going to move this thread out of the JRB forum and into the Top Insulation forum since it's a direct comparison between two vendors' products. Let's all be sure to focus on the OP's questions, posted below as a reminder:


Can You help me please. I'm thinking to order Blackbird with under quilt from Warbonnet. That is what I need. But because of the mailing from USA to Finland I could order Black Mamba top quilt with same order. Or I could choose to order JRB top quilt with some extra stuff (hood and sleeves) later.

I like the Black mamba because it is simple. But if JRB does what it says, it would be great multipurpose system. But I have learned at this age that "do all" is not always good for nothing. Are there any caveats in JRB system. Does anyone use all those nice options (down to earth omintape etc.) constantly in real world? Or is the truth that Snivellers are used mostly as a simple over quilts?

For example In my experience omni-tape does not work very well after few years of use when it gets old and if the gear's usability is based on omni-tape in my opinion that is not a good thing.

In one sentence: Should I bother to order JRB with it's many options or to get it on with Black mamba's simplicity?

Here are the contenders:

The Rocky Mountain Sniveller (Long) weighs 28 oz., comes with a 1.5 oz. silnyl compression sack, and can be stuffed to 8”x8”x10”; Thickness 3".

Black Mamba Winter Long rated 0 F; Thickness 3"; Weight of the down 17 oz; Weight 27.8 oz

And links are:

http://www.jacksrbetter.com/Wearable%20Quilts.htm

http://warbonnetoutdoors.com/topquilt.php

[ringtail-THFKAfood]

Is the Black Mamba too narrow to use comfortably on the ground? I am in an out of AT shelters depending on the weather and my mood, it would be nice if it would work for both. Any opinions on the width?

dg

I am a wide bodied side sleeper. The Stealth quilt at 48" is wide enough for summer. The No Sniveller at 48" is wide enough when used with a bivy for spring and fall. The width is the outside measurement. At a loft of 2.5" the coverage may be adequate, but at a loft of 3.5" it may not. You need less width in a hammock than you do on the ground.

[MedicineMan]

'You need less width in a hammock than you do on the ground' and that is why for the most part the Mambas are hammock specific...it was my complaint on the nunataks-so much excess material to carry/pack...but the nunataks were never marketed for hammock and were def. designed for the alpinist.