Rose Feather quality

[Kayak_Medic]

In anticipation of my venture into the world of DIY, I purchased some bulk down from Rose Feather on Amazon. I bought two 500 gram packs of 100% white goose down rated at 950+ FP. The price was $69.95 per 500 grams, which is 1.1 pounds, or just over 17 ounces. The down came packed into two individual pillows, so it's not the most user friendly option. Would have been much nicer packed into more manageable 1 or 3 ounce packages, but for this price, I'll deal with a little inconvenience.

For those curious about the quality of the Rose Feather down, I let my curiosity get the best of me, and decided to cut the pillow open to inspect a small handful. Here's some photos of what I found. This is my first time ever messing with down, so take my thoughts with an appropriate grain of salt. I found one feather in the sample I pulled. From what I've read about down, this stuff looks to be pretty high quality, and I'd guess is pretty close to what's advertised.

[knightshade]

It is intersting to see that your tag lists a fill power.
I had a similar purchase, but it was for 700+ fill power ($36 for 450g).
I thought it could make an interesting DIY project.
In contrast, my tag doesn't list a fill power on it.

[PharmGeek]

I think it markets it as 850 not 950....? Double check if you will?


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[Kayak_Medic]

It is intersting to see that your tag lists a fill power.
I had a similar purchase, but it was for 700+ fill power ($36 for 450g).
I thought it could make an interesting DIY project.
In contrast, my tag doesn't list a fill power on it.

What does your tag have on it? Did it come sewn into a small pillow like mine? I don't see 700 FP listed on the amazon link I used. They have 750+ 850+ and 950+ listed. Does yours say it's 80% goose down? That's how they list the 750+ down

[PharmGeek]

95% goose down vs 950 fp different meaning...unless you found a different fp they sell


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[Kayak_Medic]

I think it markets it as 850 not 950....? Double check if you will?


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Are you asking me or the other poster? Mine was marketed as 950+ Here's the link
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06XC3RM1F/ref=twister_B074J6LGL8?_encoding=UTF8&th=1

[PharmGeek]

Are you asking me or the other poster? Mine was marketed as 950+ Here's the link
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06XC3RM1F/ref=twister_B074J6LGL8?_encoding=UTF8&th=1

Oh ok - that was a different link than what I used for the rose feather down I bought on amazon...

I’ll be interested in how much volume that fills as you go forward


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[Kayak_Medic]

Oh ok - that was a different link than what I used for the rose feather down I bought on amazon...

I’ll be interested in how much volume that fills as you go forward


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Yeah, i agree. I've never messed with down before, so I have nothing to compare with. I need to buy a digital scale so I can accurately weigh out portions. I have one i use for reloading ammo, but it maxes out at 50 grams. That pile in the photos is what i pinched in my fingers through the small hole i made when I cut the corner of the pillow off. It's fluffed up so much I'd have to use two hands to hold it now. I honestly cannot perceive any weight in my hands when i hold it. I liken it to holding soap suds.

[PharmGeek]

Are there feathers in in it that I see in the photo

100% goose down and 950fp - I would expect to see almost none if any at all ...but if there were just a couple in there and it turkey will loft up - that is cheap

Let us know the ounces of down you end up needing and the full specs on the quilt.

Good luck!


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[Kayak_Medic]

I found one feather in the small sample I pulled. I'm realistic enough to assume I didn't get lucky and pull the only feather that's in the bag, so I'm sure there will be more. I wish there was a better way to inspect it, but this stuff has to be handled in a room with next to no air flow if you don't want to wear it, lol. It takes off with the slightest puff of air. Maybe after I get a scale, I'll pull an ounce out and put it in a container that would be a common reference for most folks and see how much it lofts.

[PharmGeek]

I found one feather in the small sample I pulled. I'm realistic enough to assume I didn't get lucky and pull the only feather that's in the bag, so I'm sure there will be more. I wish there was a better way to inspect it, but this stuff has to be handled in a room with next to no air flow if you don't want to wear it, lol. It takes off with the slightest puff of air. Maybe after I get a scale, I'll pull an ounce out and put it in a container that would be a common reference for most folks and see how much it lofts.

I use the shower with curtain pulled - door closed - and turn off the heating/cooling system

The. I just make slow movements and it handles reasonably well

Avoid squeezing a bag and such

Compress the bag down first quite a bit - then cut open and empty it into a much larger plastic bag


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[knightshade]

What does your tag have on it? Did it come sewn into a small pillow like mine? I don't see 700 FP listed on the amazon link I used. They have 750+ 850+ and 950+ listed. Does yours say it's 80% goose down? That's how they list the 750+ down


In my order history it lists as:
"ROSE 100% White Goose Down Stuffing Filling Bulk, 700+ Fill Power, 1lb,DIY for Comforters,Cushion,Pillow, Jackets, Sleeping Bags"
That said, the amazon product link is now dead.
The tag that I have does not list any sort of fill power.

[knightshade]

In terms of down flying around - I did some searching.
There is a thread on another forum for "Down Eductor" that has the following video:
http://www.wvi.com/~ulmyog/DownEductor_4BPL.wmv

Looked to be a fairly good way to go about filling a quilt, with minimal mess or loss.
(Also can watch the scale count down - so that you can measure each chamber's down weight.

[Kayak_Medic]

That looks pretty cool, and easy to make. I might give it a try once I make my quilt.

[HoosierT]

I use the Eductor and don't at all wish for a better system, it just works.

[mathineer]

I just got the down I ordered from Rose Feather through Amazon. I ordered two 450g packages:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06WLR4W4V/ref=twister_B074J6LGL8?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
I received two stuffed "pillows" with the label, "Rose Feather bulk white goose duck down and feather - filling stuff bedding pillow DIY USA Standard New Item" Nothing about fill power. Without opening the packages, I have no idea what I actually received. The label doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

On the other side is a picture of a woman having a wonderful dream with the following:
"Perhaps only a dream night
Can comfort there are too many of us is not easy every day
At this time the most pleasant thing in a warm is
A good book and tick the rain outside the window
Enron sleep"

[PharmGeek]

I just got the down I ordered from Rose Feather through Amazon. I ordered two 450g packages:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06WLR4W4V/ref=twister_B074J6LGL8?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

On the other side is a picture of a woman having a wonderful dream with the following:
"Perhaps only a dream night
Can comfort there are too many of us is not easy every day
At this time the most pleasant thing in a warm is
A good book and tick the rain outside the window
Enron sleep"


Strangely - this little quite you shared had me more concerned than anything so far lol

I plan on weighing and ounce of the stuff out once it arrives - putting it in a large box - waiting a 24 hours -
Then measure that loft - and doing the very same with my cottage vendor 850fp goose down for comparison





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[mathineer]

Strangely - this little quite you shared had me more concerned than anything so far lol

I plan on weighing and ounce of the stuff out once it arrives - putting it in a large box - waiting a 24 hours -
Then measure that loft - and doing the very same with my cottage vendor 850fp goose down for comparison

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I look forward to the results of your test!

mathineer

[LuvmyBonnet]

On the other side is a picture of a woman having a wonderful dream with the following:
"Perhaps only a dream night
Can comfort there are too many of us is not easy every day
At this time the most pleasant thing in a warm is
A good book and tick the rain outside the window
Enron sleep"
:lol: LOL!

[Charliev]

Rose feather markets several different fill power and down percentage on amazon and it changes from time to time. You have to read the description carefully. I have purchased from them on a couple of occasions and found the weight I paid for accurate and no feathers in the 100% down.

[Crazytown3]

OP, I have nothing of substance to add here, other than I was kind of hoping one of your pictures would be of you tossing two big fistfulls of down up in the air to see if it floats.

[KBr00ks]

Just a word of warning -- on that original link for 950 fill power, changing the "size" to 450g changes the fill power to 850.

[FJRpilot]

Just a word of warning -- on that original link for 950 fill power, changing the "size" to 450g changes the fill power to 850.

Not sure I understand this, can you explain?


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[KBr00ks]

Actually -- it may be a simple typo, have emailed to ask them.

Here's a screenshot with the 450g size selected. Note the second point in the description bullet points. (But I also just noticed that further down it says 950+.)

157794

[Kayak_Medic]

Just a word of warning -- on that original link for 950 fill power, changing the "size" to 450g changes the fill power to 850.

Yeah, I saw that as well. Fortunately, the package I received shows 950+ fill power. That being said, even if I got 900 or 850, it's still a decent deal for 17.6 ounces of down.

[Kayak_Medic]

Strangely - this little quite you shared had me more concerned than anything so far lol



Lol, my package brochure had something crazy like that. Pretty sure they don't have access to Google translator in China, so I'm betting that what they thought they were saying made more sense in their language, lol.

[Kayak_Medic]

Actually -- it may be a simple typo, have emailed to ask them.

Here's a screenshot with the 450g size selected. Note the second point in the description bullet points. (But I also just noticed that further down it says 950+.)

157794

Seems they fixed it. All quantities now say 950+

[KBr00ks]

Yep, they answered my email this morning and said they would fix the post. At least it inspires a bit more confidence that they are on top of such details... bad poetry notwithstanding. ;)

[Carrico]

https://rosefeather.m.en.alibaba.com/

Here's some more information on the company if any of you are interested. I've always got good down from them in the past.

I also contacted them recently to ask how their fill power was determined, they told me they were tested and inspected by.

http://www.idfl.com/


These guys are legit As It Gets, just a good deal for the price, all there is to it.

[Kayak_Medic]

So I finally got around to actually doing something with my down. I received a couple Costco down throws yesterday, and proceeded to rip out the horizontal seams, leaving 12 long channels. I have heard the CDT has 6 ounces of 700fp down. I added 13 grams of my Rose Feather 950 down to each of the 12 tubes. That's a total of 156 grams, or 5.5 ounces total. Here's some photos of the results. In stock form, the CDT lofted to 5/8 inch. Now it lofts to 1 3/4 to 1 7/8 inches. For those familiar with modifying the CDTs, how does this seem to compare? This is the first time I've ever done anything with down, so I have nothing to compare to. Now, so I don't come across as biased to Rose Feather, I will say that I was a little surprised at the feathers I found in the relatively small sample I dealt with. I don't know what's considered acceptable, but I would expect less in something advertised as 100% down, and not a blend of down/feather. I was also surprised at the size of some of the feathers, as you can see in the photo below. Is this normal? I can see the small, fine feathers making it past the sorting, but these bigger ones? Anyway, let me know what y'all think. I still think the down is good quality, and pretty good deal at what I paid.

[Kayak_Medic]

In terms of down flying around - I did some searching.
There is a thread on another forum for "Down Eductor" that has the following video:
http://www.wvi.com/~ulmyog/DownEductor_4BPL.wmv

Looked to be a fairly good way to go about filling a quilt, with minimal mess or loss.
(Also can watch the scale count down - so that you can measure each chamber's down weight.

So I gave this a try. Didn't work. Apparently the fabric the costco throws are made from isn't porous enough. The channel I was trying to fill blew up like a balloon, and the pressure inside the eductor built up and just started blowing into my down instead of sucking it up and shooting it into the channel. I used the baffled T connectora as shown in the instructions I found on BPL. It worked as expected when I tested it out in the open with a small sample of down, but as soon as I tried filling a channel, the suction effect was canceled out, and it started blowing into my down making a mess. I ended up just weighing the down I planned on stuffing into each channel, and packed it into the section of pipe from my eductor, and then pushing it into the channel with a plunger stick. Worked pretty well.

[knightshade]

So I gave this a try. Didn't work. Apparently the fabric the costco throws are made from isn't porous enough. The channel I was trying to fill blew up like a balloon, and the pressure inside the eductor built up and just started blowing into my down instead of sucking it up and shooting it into the channel. I used the baffled T connectora as shown in the instructions I found on BPL. It worked as expected when I tested it out in the open with a small sample of down, but as soon as I tried filling a channel, the suction effect was canceled out, and it started blowing into my down making a mess. I ended up just weighing the down I planned on stuffing into each channel, and packed it into the section of pipe from my eductor, and then pushing it into the channel with a plunger stick. Worked pretty well.

Good to know.
I assume that they were using it when it was a quilt with baffles made out of no-seeum mesh.

[PharmGeek]

Down I’ve bought from Dutch, wilderness logics, and downlinens had no feathers I could find so far....

The presence of feathers in such quantities in “100%” Down seems entirely improper.

When I bought the 95% I bought I’ve assumed the worst that it will have “some degree” of this - hopefully minimal causing vast leakage or damage....

I would like for you to contact rose feather and see what they say....

We shall see....concerning example I think but as long as it fills your projects well and leakage of these feathers is minimal it may be “acceptable”....but 100% should be similar feather content to the down I’ve bought so far


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[Carrico]

When they say 100% duck down or goose down they simply mean it's not Blended, they sell Blended duck and goose down as well. look through their listings, they advertise 100% goose down on all their fill powers.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01M7VUU4I/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1512060135&sr=8-3&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=rose+feather+down+filling&dpPl=1&dpID=319jjQUiTzL&ref=plSrch

Here is as an example, the listing of the 750 fill power advertise as 100% goose down. They do duck and goose down blends. They also do feather down Blends for filling pillows and cotton down Blends as well.

How big of a sample of down was it that you pulled the 13 feathers out of. I got to say a few of them did look big but I've seen feathers in every down I've ever handled, including the innards of some high-end sleeping bags.

[PharmGeek]

Carrico...now now...you are failing to see how confusing or dare I even say deceptive that is....

People want to know when they buy "goose down" (btw, if there is no mention of terms like "duck" or "blend" then the reasonable assumption is that there indeed only is goose as a source) what percent is feathers vs "down".

And rose feather does sell 95/5, and 80/20....etc...are you trying to say that my 95/5 is comprised of 5% duck down?

Just so you are aware, many labels of down through the industry are labeled as 75/25, 95/5, or 100% specifically in relation to "down" vs. "non-down" (feathers and such) content.

TO buy 100% goose down alongside 80/20 and 95/5...and find "lots" of feathers is a problem as far as I can tell in meeting up with what is being advertised....

If duck is in these...I just looked and 95/5 for example I ordered has no mention of duck down or other animal down source.

[PharmGeek]

I expect with my 95/5 to get 5% feathers...am I wrong in understanding these numbers?

[PharmGeek]

Note they do sell various options like 95/5 and even 80/20

Here is my 95/5 I ordered and I include their description

Not the total lack of reference to any form of other Down than goose.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171130/eae2e2eda0ad76749cd32e631ac75268.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171130/8b12e241ef04df33d99bc64fc8ba2ca3.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171130/45a6d68fc821c1ef0728f214f725e481.jpg

I have sent them an email inquiring what 95/5 means specifically as well


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[Carrico]

Like I said they have several different kinds of blends. feather and down blends, duck and Goose Blends, down and cotton Blends, down and polyester blends .Amazon has a very small percentage of their actual products, if you go to their actual web page you'll see all their product listings.

Then why is the 750 fill the 850 fill and 950 fill all advertised as 100% down? they are also inspected and certified by the largest textile and feather inspection company in the world based out of Europe but started in Salt Lake City, they are certified under USA standards.
http://www.idfl.com/about/


Also if you are not happy with your down after you receive rose feather has a 30-day money-back guaranteed.

[mathineer]

PharmGeek,

Actucally, it says "Rose Feather Bulk White Goose Duck Down and Feather" right at the top of what you copied.

Personally, my expectation in buying the much lower cost Chinese product was that I was taking a greater risk of getting lower quality than hoped or expected. In buying full priced, US sold down, the cost differential in diy vs buying from a US cottage vendor was pretty low. Given my very modest "skills", I would be better off just buying the professionally made product. What got me off of the bubble was the Black Friday sale at Dutchware. Unfortunately, by the time I got ready to place the order, he was out of stock, and I couldn't figure out how to contact them through the web site to see if I could have gotten the same price if I placed an order. So I just decided to go ahead and get the Rose Feather stuff since I had heard some very positive reviews. Even if it turns out to be a huge disappointment (which I doubt), at least I'll get the practice in making the quilts. I could always make another.

As far as purchasing expectations, I always expect the worst and hope for the best. So far I've been pleased with stuff from Dutch and RSBTR.

I hope to start my quilts in the next couple of weeks. I've beet thinking of making a baffle sized tube and stuffing it this weekend as a more realistic test of the Rose Feather stuff I bought. I can test by repeated squash and loft cycles and see how it performs, and whether any feathers poke through the fabric. I bought the stuff advertised as 850fp, and planned to stuff by calculating at 800fp and seeing how that worked. Anyway, I think its fairly unlikely that I won't get a usable set of quilts out of my purchase.

mathineer

[Carrico]

Also fill power is just a unit of measurement as to how many square inches an ounce of down takes up in a Laboratory test it doesn't necessarily have a direct correlation to percentage of feathers.


Also under that assumption the only down that would not have any feathers in it would be 1000 fill power, which I've never seen listed anywhere before.

[PharmGeek]

What does 95/5 vs 100% mean then if not feather content?

You may have expectations met mathineer but most I suspect would agree that 100% vs 95/5 is a reference to relative feather content correct?

While I know they may say 100% and send you 80% down vs feather - if they advertise 100% and you get 80% it is at least notable


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[Kayak_Medic]

Let's put my feather findings into a bit of perspective. I pulled, weighed and used 12 piles of down weighing 13 grams each, for a total sample size of 156 grams. If i was using a 95% down 5% feather blend, i should expect to find 7.8 grams of feathers. Those feathers I found wouldn't even register on my scale, which reads down to 1 gram. Let's say they did actually weigh one gram. That is 0.6%. I guess I can live with only receiving 99.4% down when it was advertised as 100%. Remember, this same guideline is used every day in the food labeling industry. So many items are allowed to say 0 grams of trans fat per serving. It may still have 0.5 grams or 0.7 grams per serving, which means you still get almost 2 grams of trans fat in your snack if you do like most people and actually eat the whole bag and not just a single serving.

[ecologito]

Let's put my feather findings into a bit of perspective. I pulled, weighed and used 12 piles of down weighing 13 grams each, for a total sample size of 156 grams. If i was using a 95% down 5% feather blend, i should expect to find 7.8 grams of feathers. Those feathers I found wouldn't even register on my scale, which reads down to 1 gram. Let's say they did actually weigh one gram. That is 0.6%. I guess I can live with only receiving 99.4% down when it was advertised as 100%. Remember, this same guideline is used every day in the food labeling industry. So many items are allowed to say 0 grams of trans fat per serving. It may still have 0.5 grams or 0.7 grams per serving, which means you still get almost 2 grams of trans fat in your snack if you do like most people and actually eat the whole bag and not just a single serving.

Are we splitting hairs, or should I say feathers? :laugh:

[PharmGeek]

Let's put my feather findings into a bit of perspective. I pulled, weighed and used 12 piles of down weighing 13 grams each, for a total sample size of 156 grams. If i was using a 95% down 5% feather blend, i should expect to find 7.8 grams of feathers. Those feathers I found wouldn't even register on my scale, which reads down to 1 gram. Let's say they did actually weigh one gram. That is 0.6%. I guess I can live with only receiving 99.4% down when it was advertised as 100%. Remember, this same guideline is used every day in the food labeling industry. So many items are allowed to say 0 grams of trans fat per serving. It may still have 0.5 grams or 0.7 grams per serving, which means you still get almost 2 grams of trans fat in your snack if you do like most people and actually eat the whole bag and not just a single serving.

Oh, my apologies...I took it based on your original post that there was a surprising amount of feathers...ie, much more than you would expect....maybe 5 or 10% of the weight....sounds good to me then.

They should say 99+% just to avoid the obvious issue there though...

I can indeed live with a small amount of feathers! I just was concerned there was "a lot" and a clear violation of advertising...if very close to stated mark, that is in my book acceptable.

[PharmGeek]

but to be clear....100% should really mean then "extremely low by weight feather to down ratio"....with 95/5 being a bit more...etc and so on.

[Kayak_Medic]

Oh, my apologies...I took it based on your original post that there was a surprising amount of feathers...ie, much more than you would expect....maybe 5 or 10% of the weight....sounds good to me then.

They should say 99+% just to avoid the obvious issue there though...

I can indeed live with a small amount of feathers! I just was concerned there was "a lot" and a clear violation of advertising...if very close to stated mark, that is in my book acceptable.

Like I said, I'm new to messing with down, and I wasn't really sure what was to be expected. Maybe I should have considered the perspective before mentioning it myself. I was more surprised by the size of the feathers than the quantity. That being said, there were also smaller feathers that I could feel the quills when grabbing a handful of down, but based on my 5% calculation, I'm still well below that.

[PharmGeek]

Like I said, I'm new to messing with down, and I wasn't really sure what was to be expected. Maybe I should have considered the perspective before mentioning it myself. I was more surprised by the size of the feathers than the quantity. That being said, there were also smaller feathers that I could feel the quills when grabbing a handful of down, but based on my 5% calculation, I'm still well below that.

Well, for a point of reference....

Ive ordered now in the past 1.5 years down from dutch...wilderness logics....and downlinens.com....850+ fp goose down in every case...when ordering those they do not get into terms like "100%" - or at least that I cannot recall...

The result of using these sources is down that as far as I can remember, I saw no feathers...or at least so few that would be hard to a) notice and b) count....im pretty sure no big ones like that at all....and handling the stuff (I do it all by hand, not that contraption others use to good effect) and all 3 of these lots I have gotten have been nothing but fluffy with no memory of sharp bits.....further, in the several projects I have done with that down, I have counted zero feathers popping out through the fabric as one expects from feathers, quills and other sharp bits.

Im assuming that this quality is 100%....and that if you can feel the stuff, see big feathers, etc...it starts to be a matter of degree...but at "100%", ideally the end result would be comparable to the products I cited above...arguably?

Obviously when buying a lower cost product, one interpretation that is seemingly reasonable is that "well, it wont be as good as those costly others"....that is my cautiously optimistic stance...but im a stickler about the marketing...they are selling to US citizens various stated fill powers, and seemingly various price points for feather content (95/5 vs 100%)

It would be up to each person to determine if expectations are met and if they will stress test the "30 day money back guarantee"....or perhaps if I ordered 100%, I may ask if there was an error due to obvious amounts of feathers present and "many" or "some" large ones, and perhaps they sent me by mistake some 95/5 or 85/15...which are cheaper according to that feather content.

If I ordered the 100%, I may be a stickler about the presence at all of feathers that are clearly visible...and felt when handling....note that in their many photos of their "premium" product in this example...there is not a single feather :)

[knightshade]

Set the bar low, and you won't be disappointed?
I've opened a few costco down quilts, and could see feathers. (That said, they are an 80/20 mix of down/feather with a supposed fill power of 700)
Price per ounce, the 100% 700+ fill power rosefeather was cheaper, and it sound like higher quallity than the costco down throws.
From that perspective, I would call it a win all around.

If I was thru-hiking, and every ounce mattered to me, then it might not be the best path to follow.

[PharmGeek]

Set the bar low, and you won't be disappointed?
I've opened a few costco down quilts, and could see feathers. (That said, they are an 80/20 mix of down/feather with a supposed fill power of 700)
Price per ounce, the 100% 700+ fill power rosefeather was cheaper, and it sound like higher quallity than the costco down throws.
From that perspective, I would call it a win all around.

If I was thru-hiking, and every ounce mattered to me, then it might not be the best path to follow.

I totally agree...that is why I ordered the stuff...

However...

In a separate container right over there compartmentalized is my stickler stance that their marketing should by FTC rules indeed match the letter of the law.

I can say "it meets what I expected it to realistically" and be happy...and simultaneously say that the marketing is inaccurate...if that is the case.

BTW, im amazed how few feathers have came out of my Costco throws...I have several...they really are holding up!

[MoldyFrog]

Catch 22 there is the letter of the law rarely follows the expectation. Assuming a fractional variance from 100% down I'd say they are well within the letter of the law certainly.

"Free Range Eggs" sounds nice but the letter of the law means they have access to space and not that they have to run around outside 24/7. So a small 4' x 4' paddock for 10,000 birds can qualify as a free range operation even though reasonable assumption says practically none of those birds can free range.

I'd say 13 larger feathers is a steal even assuming it's anywhere near it's claimed fill power considering it's 1/3 the price.

[PharmGeek]

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/downbut-not-out-advertising-labeling-feather-down-0

"The FTC considers both "express" and "implied" claims. An express claim is explicitly stated in the ad. For example, "100% Eider down" is an express claim that the product contains 100% down from the Eider duck, without any other types of material. "


"A product may not be called "pure down," "all down," "100% down" — or be described by any other term indicating that the product contains only down — unless that is true. The same requirement applies to feathers and other filling materials."

"In other words, a producer may not "shoot for the tolerance." For example, if a manufacturer produces pillows labeled "50% down, 50% waterfowl feathers," the FTC expects all or nearly all the pillows will be filled with 50% down and 50% waterfowl feathers. If all or a large portion of the pillows actually contain 45% down, the pillows must be relabeled "45% down." A manufacturer that deliberately labels pillows with a higher percentage of down content than it intends to put into the product is acting deceptively."



Any "reasonable consumer" who happens to casually look at this advertisement and sees option 1) 80/20, 2) 95/5, and 3) 100%...and they buy 100%, their expectation based on the marketing is as such very clearly to get down with no other materials such as feathers.

It is as such a clear violation of the FTC down marketing rules.

[PharmGeek]

"I was a little surprised at the feathers I found in the relatively small sample I dealt with. I don't know what's considered acceptable, but I would expect less in something advertised as 100% down"

This is the honest result of a reasonable real life consumer going by the greater context....

It is however a dang good deal if it fills your project and doesn't leak everywhere...so no big worries...but I think your initial reaction speaks volumes about likely an FTC violation.....the marketing of "100%" in that way is clearly confusing and deceptive.

[MoldyFrog]

No. It allows for reasonable product variances due to unavoidable manufacturing limitations of up to 5%.

If when measured all of the 80/20 pillows someone is selling are actually measured at 75/25, vs a reasonable expected spread, then the seller is playing a game and is in violation. The estimated sub 1% variation here is well within legal limits.

[PharmGeek]

No I don't think so. 100% does not as a marketing tool allow for variance. Nor is saying "0%"......to imagine 100% would allow tolerances is not reasonable.

[Firesong]

Lol. You guys are going around in circles. Having bought from North American suppliers I can tell you that you will get feathers regardless of what it’s labelled. I even found a 4” feather that could have been made into a pen. As you see them pick them out lol. Typically as you get into higher FP the feathers are tinier and tinier [emoji3]

[MoldyFrog]

That statement is in the FTC link. Direct from them. The end consumer not understanding industrial processes does not mean the manufacturer is cheating someone. Sorting goods of that nature or even rocks from my sack of pinto beans is not 100% which is why you get a variance allowance and why you find rocks sometimes in your beans. A sub 1% variance shows reasonable due diligence on their part. If not with their size they would have been hit with a letter from the FTC by now.

I get the thought processes don't get me wrong. I can sit and sort a pile and be pretty darn sure I got 100% of whatever I'm sorting. There's not a warehouse full of people in China doing this. This is mechanically done and it will not be 100% not matter how much people trust machines to do things perfectly.

Personally I would expect a few to have made it through regardless of my source for the feathers and for the price I'll probably buy some and spend an hour going through to pick any out. I've worked with industrial processes and sorting for years and with marketing stuff. It's all a bunch of lies and half truths so I get individuals being unhappy or upset so to speak. What consumer protection is out there tends to be weak and ill enforced especially in America. Not trying to knock anyone, i've just happened to have worked on both sides of the coin so to speak.

[Carrico]

Lol. You guys are going around in circles. Having bought from North American suppliers I can tell you that you will get feathers regardless of what it’s labelled. I even found a 4” feather that could have been made into a pen. As you see them pick them out lol. Typically as you get into higher FP the feathers are tinier and tinier [emoji3]

Thank you, finally a "reputable" dealer chimes in. :<)

[Kayak_Medic]

I totally agree...that is why I ordered the stuff...

However...

In a separate container right over there compartmentalized is my stickler stance that their marketing should by FTC rules indeed match the letter of the law.

I can say "it meets what I expected it to realistically" and be happy...and simultaneously say that the marketing is inaccurate...if that is the case.

BTW, im amazed how few feathers have came out of my Costco throws...I have several...they really are holding up!

Pretty sure the Chinese aren't really bound by FTC guidelines, are they? Lord knows our copyright protection laws are routinely ignored without any repercussion

[PharmGeek]

Why complicate such an obvious thing

If we say “nothing can be 100%” than why not see the use of the term “100%” as inherently deceptive.

Sure we can say the Chinese are not bound by the rules fine - but my point is that saying “100%” is inherently as such deceptive based on what we are saying.

It is precisely for this reason you will NOT see Dutch, downlinens, wilderness logics etc use such deceptions because their customers would likely decry the results.

Firesong - have your suppliers marketed as “100%” down and you could clearly see bits of feather?

Average consumers do not know what entails processing of down and how effective it can be...use of such a term as such - in my opinion - is pretty much deception or flatly erroneously unless there is clear stipulation that there are indeed a small percentage of feathers. The photos depict “100%”, the words state it, the result is not in any sense numerically 100%.

If leeway is needed simple others numbers such as 95+ or 99+ can be used to accurately represent the product

I don’t see why this is not obvious but I’ll withdrawal that protest to what I see as deception


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[Carrico]

Just wanted to link This Thread up with a couple others talking about the same company, rosefeather comes up every couple months and it's usually the same discussion with the same end result good down at a great price, but since hardly any of the threads actually has the name of the company in the headline and the search engine on this forum is horrid I thought more people would end up here researching this company than the other threads.

https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php/142794-600-fp-down

https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php/131416-Rosefeather-850-down

[PharmGeek]

Just wanted to link This Thread up with a couple others talking about the same company, rosefeather comes up every couple months and it's usually the same discussion with the same end result good down at a great price, but since hardly any of the threads actually has the name of the company in the headline and the search engine on this forum is horrid I thought more people would end up here researching this company than the other threads.

https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php/142794-600-fp-down

https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php/131416-Rosefeather-850-down


I am glad you did this....I didn't want to flood more into this :)

I started my thread off not as talking about rose feather in mind, but just examining the possibility of using say 600fp down....which, I would take the weight penalty for a kids item or something, but after the weight is factored in, that is more oz's needed to fill the project, the savings narrowed significantly. (like a 20 dollar difference for 12 oz, not insignificant but still stuff that costs 70 dollars per lb for a very low fill power.


Carrico...if it pleases you, I can once I get my down and fiddle around with it, do some comparisons, video, photos, and fill my projects...come back and post here....only if you like...given my title is now odd.

[Carrico]

Yeah, I would be interested in seeing it compared to "reputable" vendors:<)

[ecologito]

I just received my order of 500 grams Rose feather down 950fp from amazon.

This feels almost like my dream pillow, mid height and pretty firm. For a second the idea of putting a pillow case and calling it a day crossed my mind. Then I remembered that I have the fabric and a top quilt to work on.

Maybe I will order another 500 gram pillow from them :)

[PharmGeek]

I just received my order of 500 grams Rose feather down 950fp from amazon.

This feels almost like my dream pillow, mid height and pretty firm. For a second the idea of putting a pillow case and calling it a day crossed my mind. Then I remembered that I have the fabric and a top quilt to work on.

Maybe I will order another 500 gram pillow from them :)

Time to get to work!

I hope to have an UQ sewn up and ready when China shipment arrives - I just got all the other materials from Dutch today


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[Carrico]

I just received my order of 500 grams Rose feather down 950fp from amazon.

This feels almost like my dream pillow, mid height and pretty firm. For a second the idea of putting a pillow case and calling it a day crossed my mind. Then I remembered that I have the fabric and a top quilt to work on.

Maybe I will order another 500 gram pillow from them :)


That's exactly what I did with my 3 oz of leftover, made a little Aragon shell for it works great.

[Brooklyn]

I'm curious to your folks methods of portioning out the down from one large "pillow". Are you weighing out ounces into a ziplock for each baffle and then emptying the ziplock into the shell? Or?

[Carrico]

I'm curious to your folks methods of portioning out the down from one large "pillow". Are you weighing out ounces into a ziplock for each baffle and then emptying the ziplock into the shell? Or?

That's how I did it, I've tried several different methods they're all very messy. But yeah I just weigh it out and put it in a zip-lock, when I'm ready to stuff the quilt I cracked the zipper on the zip lock and roll it down as tight as I can get it, then cut the bottom of the bag shove it in the baffle open the top and push it from the top down out the hole I cut. Works pretty good.

[Brooklyn]

That's how I did it, I've tried several different methods they're all very messy. But yeah I just weigh it out and put it in a zip-lock, when I'm ready to stuff the quilt I cracked the zipper on the zip lock and roll it down as tight as I can get it, then cut the bottom of the bag shove it in the baffle open the top and push it from the top down out the hole I cut. Works pretty good.

Ok. I was hoping for another way. Did you just reach in the big pillow and grab a handful, place it in a ziplock and weigh it, add more - take out as necessary, then? Seems messy and time consuming. I mean, I know the whole job will be but ****...

[MoldyFrog]

Only slight change I would do is to work via subtraction. Less handling.

Put the whole 16oz on the scale and remove down until the scale reads 15oz. That way you move from only one container to another. If you weigh from the pillow into a bowl on the scale you then have to transfer from that bowl into a holding bag.

[Brooklyn]

Only slight change I would do is to work via subtraction. Less handling.

Put the whole 16oz on the scale and remove down until the scale reads 15oz. That way you move from only one container to another. If you weigh from the pillow into a bowl on the scale you then have to transfer from that bowl into a holding bag.

SMART. Thanks!

[Brooklyn]

Only slight change I would do is to work via subtraction. Less handling.

Put the whole 16oz on the scale and remove down until the scale reads 15oz. That way you move from only one container to another. If you weigh from the pillow into a bowl on the scale you then have to transfer from that bowl into a holding bag.

One other question, was the 16 ounces of down significantly larger in volume when removed from the "pillow" from Rose Feather? I imagine I'll need a pretty large bowl and that it's packed fairly tight when it comes from them.

[MoldyFrog]

Yes. I think someone mentioned it comes as a pillow around 12 x 14 x 4". Assuming it is legit 950 fill power, 500g should ideally fluff up to fill almost 17,000 square inches or about a 25x gain in volume.

For transferring you can also McGyver up a down sucker on your vacuum cleaner. Basically a T put inline and a section of no see-um mesh. The mesh allows for the suction to grab the down and while also trapping the down from actually going into the machine. Then you can suck out the down instead of grabbing handfuls, mostly. There's a thread here somewhere that shows how to make one.

[Carrico]

It is a messy and time-consuming job no matter which way you go about it, there are several different ways of doing it and lots of YouTube tutorials. I've tried three separate ways and so far I haven't had much luck with any of them. The fastest way I have found is simply filling Ziplock bags up one handful at a time until you get the weight you are looking for. If you have a shower or bathtub that's closed off by a curtain or a door that works good, outside if there's no wind blowing is my favorite way of doing it ,wear a dust mask inhaling down sucks. If you're going to dump the pillowcase out into a large bowl or something you better make sure there's no wind at all, otherwise it's going to be blowing all over the place. And yes that little pillow is going to poof up and overflow just about any vessel you probably have in your house besides your bathtub Maybe. You also have to move slow while you're pulling down and out and putting it in other containers any quick movement will send stuff flying. But it's really not as bad as it sounds just go slow and take your time. The cleanest way I tried was putting a piece of screen or in my case nylons for my wife over the end of my shop vac tube, sucking the down up in the tube which gets caught in the tube cuz it won't go by the mesh and then pushing it in the baffle with a stick ,however it is extremely hard to get any kind of precise weight with this method.

[No-sage]

Only slight change I would do is to work via subtraction. Less handling.

Put the whole 16oz on the scale and remove down until the scale reads 15oz. That way you move from only one container to another. If you weigh from the pillow into a bowl on the scale you then have to transfer from that bowl into a holding bag.

This is what I did. Tare the scale to zero, stuff the down into a tube with screen on one end. Once I had the right amount (weight) for a baffle, I blew the down out of the tube into the chamber.

I didn’t find it too messy. You can leave the down mostly compressed as you stuff the tube.

[Brooklyn]

This is what I did. Tare the scale to zero, stuff the down into a tube with screen on one end. Once I had the right amount (weight) for a baffle, I blew the down out of the tube into the chamber.

I didn’t find it too messy. You can leave the down mostly compressed as you stuff the tube.

Any idea if you can get an ounce of down into a paper towel tube? Would love to be able to do it once per baffle. 18 baffles, 1 oz per..

[PharmGeek]

I'm curious to your folks methods of portioning out the down from one large "pillow". Are you weighing out ounces into a ziplock for each baffle and then emptying the ziplock into the shell? Or?

I put large clear plastic bin on scale - can see the reading through the bottom - in bathtub with curtain closed and air vent closed -
Then I just carefully remove a bit at a time into the bin and when I hit the weight I want then stuffs into the quilt which I have in the tub too

This I’ve found to be very minimally messy - easy cleanup - almost no real loss of down and simple


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[Carrico]

This is what I did. Tare the scale to zero, stuff the down into a tube with screen on one end. Once I had the right amount (weight) for a baffle, I blew the down out of the tube into the chamber.

I didn’t find it too messy. You can leave the down mostly compressed as you stuff the tube.

I'd be willing to bet you can stuff an ounce in one, getting it in there would be the hard part. Getting it out into the baffle should be easy though, that worked well with the Shop-Vac tube .

[KBr00ks]

Got mine today! Right in the middle of the (long) delivery window.

I'm nowhere near ready to deal with it, but should I unpack it at least a bit so the down doesn't get permanently squished?

[Carrico]

Got mine today! Right in the middle of the (long) delivery window.

I'm nowhere near ready to deal with it, but should I unpack it at least a bit so the down doesn't get permanently squished?

The down will be fine, it's not compression that hurts down it's compressing and expanding that will break down the fibers, but over a very long period of time. I've seen sleeping bags compressed for years and still loft up just fine, it just takes a little longer and you might need to agitate it in the dryer or something to get it to loft completely. In fact down is one of the most resilient insulations when it comes to compression and expansion, synthetics breakdown much faster.

[Kayak_Medic]

I'm curious to your folks methods of portioning out the down from one large "pillow". Are you weighing out ounces into a ziplock for each baffle and then emptying the ziplock into the shell? Or?

I cut a corner off the pillow and then reached in with a few fingers to pull out clumps of compressed down, and placed it inside the tote. Then I would slowly transfer down to a large mixing bowl that I had zeroed on my scale until it read the amount I was wanting. Once I had the proper amount measured out, I took the section of 1" pipe I had from my failed attempt at making a down eductor, and I just put one end in the bowl and used my fingers to pack it tightly inside the tube. That allowed me to stick the tube inside the chamber I wanted to fill. I used a 1" stick like a plunger from the other end to push all the down directly into the chamber all at once. The tube allows the smallest opening to be used so no (or very minimal) down flies out. This was my technique for adding down to my CDT. Having to cut the chamber open only large enough to fit the pipe meant I didn't need to shove my hand inside the chamber, and it meant I had less to sew back closed.

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[Kayak_Medic]

And just for reference, that tote is nearly overflowing, and you can see the 500g pillow still has quite a bit of down left in it, plus, I stuffed a little more than 5 ounces into my CDT

[Kayak_Medic]

Yes. I think someone mentioned it comes as a pillow around 12 x 14 x 4". Assuming it is legit 950 fill power, 500g should ideally fluff up to fill almost 17,000 square inches or about a 25x gain in volume.

For transferring you can also McGyver up a down sucker on your vacuum cleaner. Basically a T put inline and a section of no see-um mesh. The mesh allows for the suction to grab the down and while also trapping the down from actually going into the machine. Then you can suck out the down instead of grabbing handfuls, mostly. There's a thread here somewhere that shows how to make one.

I tried making a down eductor using a baffled T connector that you'd install under a sink drain. It worked great when I tested it with a small amount of down, and just blew it out into my yard. Unfortunately, when I tried actually using it to fill the chambers in my CDT, the fabric wasn't breathable enough, and it caused the pressure inside the tube to build up, which turned the suction into positive pressure. Yeah, it made a mess.

[Kayak_Medic]

Any idea if you can get an ounce of down into a paper towel tube? Would love to be able to do it once per baffle. 18 baffles, 1 oz per..


Any idea if you can get an ounce of down into a paper towel tube? Would love to be able to do it once per baffle. 18 baffles, 1 oz per..

Yes, you should be able to stuff an ounce of down into one. It should easily compress into that space. I used a short section of 1" PVC pipe and stuffed 13 grams, which is almost 1/2 ounce. A paper towel roll has about an inch and a half inside diameter, so it has more capacity than the 1" tube I used. I'd recommend you using a stick or something that fits snugly inside the tube to act as a plunger to push the down into the chamber rather than trying to blow it in.

[PharmGeek]

I can put 1/2 oz of down stuffed into balled fist - then place entire hand and arm into baffle - let it go - repeat

I have a video of me doing it at the end of it at 26:08

https://youtu.be/SQpt-V18n8c




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[PharmGeek]

My down is now showing as in the US and on way to my house - soon will be able to examine it more closely


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[KBr00ks]

I don't want to open it all the way just yet, but here is a pic of what it looks like in the package, and the "pillows", which in my case are cotton drawstring bags:

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[ETA] Well, the package pic didn't upload, but isn't important.

I'm glad I got drawstrings -- seems possibly easier to deal with than sewing/re-sewing... being a newbie at this I might well be wrong, though.

[P-Dub]

ha ha that looks kind of scary!! like they're just waiting to bust out...

[Brooklyn]

I looked yesterday at their Amazon page and did not see the 950, 100% down available. I wonder if they're currently sold out.

[No-sage]

Any idea if you can get an ounce of down into a paper towel tube? Would love to be able to do it once per baffle. 18 baffles, 1 oz per..

I think you could get an oz in easily.

[Brooklyn]

I think you could get an oz in easily.

Good to know. Thanks

[Brooklyn]

Yes, you should be able to stuff an ounce of down into one. It should easily compress into that space. I used a short section of 1" PVC pipe and stuffed 13 grams, which is almost 1/2 ounce. A paper towel roll has about an inch and a half inside diameter, so it has more capacity than the 1" tube I used. I'd recommend you using a stick or something that fits snugly inside the tube to act as a plunger to push the down into the chamber rather than trying to blow it in.

Thanks for the advice

[Carrico]

I looked yesterday at their Amazon page and did not see the 950, 100% down available. I wonder if they're currently sold out.

I noticed Amazon changed up the way they listed things recently,which I think makes it harder to find stuff. Looks like they have the 100% available in 200 and 500 gram packs.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B06XC3RM1F/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1513356368&sr=8-2&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=bulk%2Bdown%2B850&dpPl=1&dpID=41EFbFmYL%2BL&ref=plSrch&th=1&psc=1

[Kayak_Medic]

I noticed Amazon changed up the way they listed things recently,which I think makes it harder to find stuff. Looks like they have the 100% available in 200 and 500 gram packs.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B06XC3RM1F/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1513356368&sr=8-2&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=bulk%2Bdown%2B850&dpPl=1&dpID=41EFbFmYL%2BL&ref=plSrch&th=1&psc=1


Yes, and the 500g packs are actually shipped by Amazon from the US, so you can get it in just 2-5 days. I ordered mine on a Tuesdayour Wednesday, and it arrived on Saturday

[KBr00ks]

ha ha that looks kind of scary!! like they're just waiting to bust out...

Haha, they do... :scared::lol: That's why I left each pillow in its plastic bag... got nosy dogs in the house, don't want them to get 'feathered'!

[PharmGeek]

Mine arrived a couple days ago - all 4 lbs of it - in getting over the flu but plan on getting a better look at it soon

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171221/6d9806f8de941b89ecb9bbc4f0845987.jpg


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[Carrico]

Mine arrived a couple days ago - all 4 lbs of it - in getting over the flu but plan on getting a better look at it soon

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171221/6d9806f8de941b89ecb9bbc4f0845987.jpg


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That is one big old bag of Downey goodness:<)

[Bignfuzzy]

I just finished two quilts, one using down from Wilderness Logics 800/850 blend at $5.75 per oz and one using the 950+ Rosefeather down at ~ $2.95 / oz. Both shipments arrived in a couple days.

The WL down was for a underquilt with the baffles intentionally sized for 1 oz even. I used CatSplats worksheet (2" baffles, 800 fp 20% overstuff, 2.5" loft) to figure the baffle sizes and down amounts.

The RF down was for a top quilt with similarly sized baffles, (2.1" height, 800 fp, 20% overstuff) I couldn't wrap my head around a differential cut for a top quilt, so cut the outer shell two inches wider all the way around, and used a couple pleats at each corner to make a box. I actually used 2" baffles, but used 2.1 in my volume measurements to account for loft.

I have to say - if you can design to use 1 oz increments of down - that's the way to go. Cut the top of the bag, stuff it in the baffle, and work the down out.

The WL down had more gray feathers than the RF. RF had none, the WL had enough to be noticeable through Membrane 10.
The WL down had one feather per 2 oz approx, the RF had a few more feathers. The RF had something in it - looked like thread from sewing the pillow closed, tangled up with 4-5 sizeable feathers. Pulled it out and continued on.
The WL down was more consistent in size of clusters, the RF down had more of the smaller fine clusters.
Both quilts took 2-3 hours before the down fully expanded throughout the baffles. It takes about 15 minutes to fully fluff up after being compressed in a compression stuff sack.

Both wound up with about the same loft. Since the chambers were roughly the same width and height, I'd assume that meant both suppliers were approx the same fp. I used 800 in my calculations with a 20% overstuff.

Overall, the 58"x 84" top quilt weight was 22oz with 14 oz fill and 3" loft. So somewhere in the ball park of a 850/900 fp, 20 deg maybe 10 deg quilt from EE.
Underquilt (46" x 60") came in at 16oz with suspension and 10 oz fill. Also 3" loft.

I'll do a build thread on the next one, but I followed www.instructables.com/id/Down-Hammock-Underquilt-Ultralight-20F/ for the underquilt. Better than any build thread I can put together.

TL,DR: Both downs are similar fill power - either WL is underrated, RF is overrated, or the difference between 825 and 950 is insignificant. WL has fewer feathers. If I can size down chambers to use one oz increments - WL is just easier.

[Kayak_Medic]

I guess the $64k question is, given your findings, is the WL worth nearly double the cost of the RF? Or, I guess the better way of wording it, given your findings, if you build another quilt, will you buy more WL, or RF?

[PharmGeek]

58x84x3=14,616/800fp=18.27oz

14,616/950fp= 15.38oz

So 800 vs even 950 is a 3oz difference...I’ve long suspected for DIY’ers this will be a bit hard to figure out how true to the fp you end up getting given how we also use overstuff quite often.

I have not had time to get into my RF vs WL vs Dutch analysis - but am interested to do so.

Sounds like the RF quality in this example was pretty good...let us know if feathers start popping out of the quilt in coming weeks


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[Abstevey]

For what it is worth, I recently made an UQ and TQ using the Rose Feather down. The UQ was made using the 80/20 grey down. The TQ was made using the famed 100% white goose down. Here are my unscientific observations. There seemed to be more feathers/quills in the 100% material. I never counted feathers per ounce or anything like that, just an observation from grabbing handfuls of down and stuffing it in the baffles. I was disappointed with paying a higher price and not getting a perceived better quality down. That being said, it is possible that the 80/20 down was underrated. Your experience may be different. If I personally had to do it all over again, I would buy the 80/20 for both quilts and overstuff 15-20%. Of course I would like my gear as light as possible for backpacking, but the weight didn’t bother me carrying it out the back door 🤪. Let’s see if I can attach pics of my finished project. The first pic is with a down sleeping bag as a TQ. I don’t have a pic using both homemade quilts at the same time. I have however, tested both out on my back porch to 15 F with a nice toasty nights sleep.
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[Cruiser51]

Abstevey ... any chance of some pics on how you sewed the end pillow in the TQ footbox .... I am just figuring out how I will do the same thing


Brian

[KBr00ks]

Abstevey - Me too! :)

[Abstevey]

Abstevey ... any chance of some pics on how you sewed the end pillow in the TQ footbox .... I am just figuring out how I will do the same thing


Brian

Sorry, I donÂ’t have any pics of that. I was really just feeling my way through that part. I cut two pieces of fabric 15x15 inches. I sewed the perimeter together with a baffle separting it in half. Before finishing stitching the last side together, I grabbed a handful of down and stuffed each compartment. I then sewed that box to the tapered end of the quilt seam to seam. There was a problem with that, though. When I tested it out in the backyard, there were definitely cold spots where the seams of the box and the quilt came together. I turned the footbox inside out and sewed another box of down to the existing box and the inside of the first baffle. It wasn’t pretty, but it got the job done. Good thing all of the ugly sewing ended up on the inside of the quilt. No more cold spots. Pics really would help with the description, but hopefully that explanation makes sense.

[Lauren]

For my first quilt, I used water resistant down from down linens. It was quite expensive so I am thinking I will get rose feather this time. My question is, is there any way to treat rose feather’s down to make it water resistant here at home?


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[Carrico]

For my first quilt, I used water resistant down from down linens. It was quite expensive so I am thinking I will get rose feather this time. My question is, is there any way to treat rose feather’s down to make it water resistant here at home?


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Nikwax down proof works very good.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B001OPF4ME/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1515086227&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=nikwax+down+proof

[Lauren]

Nikwax down proof works very good.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B001OPF4ME/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1515086227&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=nikwax+down+proof

Thank you!!


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[Bignfuzzy]

I guess the $64k question is, given your findings, is the WL worth nearly double the cost of the RF? Or, I guess the better way of wording it, given your findings, if you build another quilt, will you buy more WL, or RF?

If I can design for 1 oz down chambers, I'll go with Wilderness Logics. I think the extra cost worked out to ~ $30, and the one oz packets were much easier than dealing with RF. Otherwise I'll use RF.

Edit: To clarify, it took about 20 minutes to carefully stuff 10 chambers, each filled with the contents of a 1 oz packet of WL down. It took closer to two hours on the top quilt with 16 chambers, a much more frustrating process, but my wife still giggles when she finds a down cluster floating by.

[PharmGeek]

I cannot help but just continually bellyache at all the hubbub about the challenge of measuring 0.9 or 1.1 or anything other than 1oz....it’s easy - not messy - this site had me in near PTSD when I started about the down part I swear lol

I plan on stuffing an UQ this weekend and will then post my review and some comparisons - been crazy round here - whiplash, the flu, holidays, etc


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[mathineer]

I've posted about my experience with Rose Feather in a separate thread, but thought I'd post a quick note here. I sewed and stuffed an UQ with RF that claimed 850fp. UQ calculator said I needed about 12 oz for the dimensions of the quilt I made. I slightly overstuffed, let it sit for a few days, tried fluffing it in the dryer on no heat setting, and if just won't loft even half of the baffles. It may be possible that I made some kind of mistake, but I can't for the life of me figure out what it might be. The quilt measurements match the spreadsheet. I put most of a pound of what was claimed to be 850fp down in the quilt, and I don't know what else there is. Very disappointed!

mathineer

[Violent Green]

Rene over at BPL tested the Rose down and got 700fp with a DIY apparatus. May not be 100% accurate, but that seems reasonable.

[Latt]

Rene over at BPL tested the Rose down and got 700fp with a DIY apparatus. May not be 100% accurate, but that seems reasonable.

Rose Feather have a lot of various qualities of down. What was the claimed FP of the down he tested?

[PharmGeek]

Finished UQ a couple days ago - stuffed with down - I stuffed with 30% overstuff assuming 800fp - I used 1.34 oz per baffle - total 12 baffles.

I think the end result appears now after fluffing and drying on low etc - is adequately stuffed but appears not like 30% overstuff.

I plan to take an ounce of the stuff and let it settle in a plastic bin overnight - measure how high it lofts in the box and repeat that with 1oz of wilderness logics and 1 oz of Dutch

That is not measured fp but would give a relative sense

It’s hard to say - but my sampling appears to be perhaps lower FP - I’d say 650-700fp but frankly this is at best educated guess

The comparison to others will be better


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[Kayak_Medic]

If RF tests and certifies their down fill through IDFL labs, I wonder why there's so much variance in the assessments of suspected fill power here? I wonder if a double blind test would give the same results if the folks estimating the fill power had no idea which sample they were actually judging. Just thinking out loud.

[Violent Green]

Rose Feather have a lot of various qualities of down. What was the claimed FP of the down he tested?

950fp

[Latt]

950fp

Wow ... that's a bit disturbing

[Carrico]

I am very interested in hearing the results of Pharmgeek side-by-side comparison with more "reputable" dealers. I have ordered from rosefeather 4 times and have been very pleased with the down I've got from them. They're down is inspected and verified by one of the largest textile verification companies in the world. As a side note, the only expensive sleeping bag I've ever bought was a Mountain Hardwear Phantom 32 with 850 fill. This bag was supposed to be rated to 32 degrees and cost over $300 new. I bought it used off eBay, it was in great shape and only two years old. however it did not loft nearly as much as I was expecting and by itself would not keep me warm below about 40 degrees. needless to say I was very disappointed and is what launched me into making my own quilts.

Note, rosefeather has a 30-day money-back guarantee on their down. anybody who's not pleased with it should contact them, they have been very helpful with all the inquiries I have made.

[mathineer]

Note, rosefeather has a 30-day money-back guarantee on their down. anybody who's not pleased with it should contact them, they have been very helpful with all the inquiries I have made.

Well poop! I'm pretty sure I'm past 30 days, and most of the 2lbs of down I bought is in my underquilt. I'm definitely NOT satisfied. I think the tests I did pretty conclusively confirm that the down I bought which was advertised as 850fp, is actually less than 400fp. I suspect that whoever shipped it to me sent me the wrong stuff as they sell a number of different grades. My packages' markings did not indicate fp. Regardless, I won't buy from them again. BTW, it looks pretty "downy", and doesn't seem to have a many feathers. My basement has some errant plumules floating around. I'll be sitting there and one will just float by when the furnace kicks on. :-) Anyway, it is certainly possible that I'm missing something fundamental, but I can't imagine what it might be. You can check out my mathineer underquilt thread if you're interested in the details.

BTW, my wife responded to my carping about it by giving me a down comforter she had to pull the down out of. She claims she's allergic to it, and was going to pitch it. Good thing I complained! Of course I don't know the fp, but when I press down on it, it springs right back, whereas the RF doesn't seem to respond that way. I think I'll use that for the TQ, but I'll probably do some sort of basic test first to get a rough idea of fp.

mathineer

[Levi Tate]

Wouldn't the size of the package it was shipped in correlate somewhat to the size of the fill power? I know you can compress the down, but do you think RF would ship 2 lbs of 400fp in the same size bags as 2lbs of 850fp? I wouldn't think they would.

I would still contact them and explain your dissatisfaction. You have nothing to lose, and you never know, they may surprise you. Its worth a try.

[Scouter_Ken]

this thread got me concerned about the down I need for my underquilt build...

Ordered a pound of mixed down (50% 850 goose, 50% 800 duck) from Wilderness Logistics http://wildernesslogics.com for $75 plus shipping. They have a solid reputation and the last thing I want to be concerned about on a long winter night is getting a cold butt because I wanted to save $15-20.

[Kayak_Medic]

I think the tests I did pretty conclusively confirm that the down I bought which was advertised as 850fp, is actually less than 400fp.

Less than 400FP?!? For 850FP advertised? Did you buy this from Rose Feather or a third party? I would be interested in knowing the details of your test where you came to that conclusion. It just seems hard to fathom that they would advertise the product as 850fp, and then send you something that's lower than anything I've even seen them advertise as selling.

Just curious, but you mention most of the two pounds you ordered is in your underquilt. What are the dimensions of the quilt? I can't help but wonder if you over stuffed it by too much. Pretty sure there's a point of diminishing returns with over stuffing, and putting too much down in a small space would almost prevent it from lofting.

All I can say is, the only thing I've done so far with my RF down is add a few ounces to my Costco throw, and now i can't get it away from my wife. She loves how fluffy and warm it is to lay under on the couch. I really need to just get motivated and make a proper under quilt so I can say for sure how well it works but from what I've done so far, I'd never think it was more than maybe 50 to 100FP off from what was advertised.

[tiggere]

Less than 400FP?!? For 850FP advertised? Did you buy this from Rose Feather or a third party? I would be interested in knowing the details of your test where you came to that conclusion. It just seems hard to fathom that they would advertise the product as 850fp, and then send you something that's lower than anything I've even seen them advertise as selling.

Just curious, but you mention most of the two pounds you ordered is in your underquilt. What are the dimensions of the quilt? I can't help but wonder if you over stuffed it by too much. Pretty sure there's a point of diminishing returns with over stuffing, and putting too much down in a small space would almost prevent it from lofting.

All I can say is, the only thing I've done so far with my RF down is add a few ounces to my Costco throw, and now i can't get it away from my wife. She loves how fluffy and warm it is to lay under on the couch. I really need to just get motivated and make a proper under quilt so I can say for sure how well it works but from what I've done so far, I'd never think it was more than maybe 50 to 100FP off from what was advertised.

From post #16 in this thread...

I just got the down I ordered from Rose Feather through Amazon. I ordered two 450g packages:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06WLR4W4V/ref=twister_B074J6LGL8?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
I received two stuffed "pillows" with the label, "Rose Feather bulk white goose duck down and feather - filling stuff bedding pillow DIY USA Standard New Item" Nothing about fill power. Without opening the packages, I have no idea what I actually received. The label doesn't exactly inspire confidence.




Everything else you asked and more is in his DIY post here...https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php/143883-Mathineer-s-First-Down-Underquilt

Also of note...per the IDFL +/- 5% is acceptable...in 850 Fill Power per your example 100FP off would be almost 12% loss...even 50FP off is borderline...so yes I would say he needs to call/email Rose feather even though he is past the 30days...I also found a few articles that said the treated down does not fluff as well and tends to clump more than untreated...

[Bignfuzzy]

this thread got me concerned about the down I need for my underquilt build...

Ordered a pound of mixed down (50% 850 goose, 50% 800 duck) from Wilderness Logistics http://wildernesslogics.com for $75 plus shipping. They have a solid reputation and the last thing I want to be concerned about on a long winter night is getting a cold butt because I wanted to save $15-20.

I'm happy with my underquilt built with WL down. I'm convinced getting the differential cut right is more important that the down. It pulls tight across my lower back which then gets cool....below about 15.

Based on my absolutely scientific sample size of one quilt with WL, you'll be fine. I used CatSplats worksheet (2" baffles, 800 fp 20% overstuff, 2.5" loft) to figure the baffle sizes and down amounts. Down chambers approx 4.5" wide.

Figure my comfort limit is mid teens. Took it to 8 degrees and was cold, but was still able to sleep.

[slugbait]

There's a thread on BackpackingLight in the "Make Your Own Gear" section currently with an interesting discussion on this topic.

[KBr00ks]

Huh. Well I guess my next project will not be to start sewing on a UQ/TQ, but to build a down fill power measuring device...

Already thinking that if the Rose Feather stuff I got proves to be much lower than what it's supposed to be (950), I'll use it to make a new comforter for my bed, and order some 'real' stuff from one of the reputable vendors in North America. My whole point in DIY in this case is to make quilts as light and compressible as possible, along with other custom details. 400-600fp ain't gonna cut it.

[Scouter_Ken]

the down mix (50% 850 goose/ 50% 800 duck) from Wilderness Logics arrived this afternoon.

have stuffed 5 of the 9 baffles on my underquilt. this stuff lofts great.

[Kayak_Medic]

Finished UQ a couple days ago - stuffed with down - I stuffed with 30% overstuff assuming 800fp - I used 1.34 oz per baffle - total 12 baffles.

I think the end result appears now after fluffing and drying on low etc - is adequately stuffed but appears not like 30% overstuff.

I plan to take an ounce of the stuff and let it settle in a plastic bin overnight - measure how high it lofts in the box and repeat that with 1oz of wilderness logics and 1 oz of Dutch

That is not measured fp but would give a relative sense

It’s hard to say - but my sampling appears to be perhaps lower FP - I’d say 650-700fp but frankly this is at best educated guess

The comparison to others will be better


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Have you had a chance to test or compare your RF to other brands yet? Is your RF still tightly compressed in the pillow it was shipped in?

[PharmGeek]

Have you had a chance to test or compare your RF to other brands yet? Is your RF still tightly compressed in the pillow it was shipped in?

I used 1 lb of it already and emptied out some of that bag - it’s suuuper compressed in single 4 lb bag

I have not yet done the wife by side testing

It’s been nuts around my house - flu season - strep - kids - things now are calm and I promise I have not forgotten - I’ll try and get it started tonight!!!


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[Car Camper]

I just got done using "Rose feather 900+ down" in my underquilt. It was about $59 a pound and so far I used almost 2 1/2#. It is not 900+ down but for the price I knew it wasn't going to be. I won't take a guess what it is for sure but to be safe I put 650 in the calculator I used. I figure better under than over. I like it for the price but there was probably 10ish brown feathers mixed with the white feathers (not a huge deal to me but an FYI). What really ticks me off is I found a 3- 4 inch piece of clear box tape covered with feathers inside on of the pound packages and a piece of grass or maybe hay in another package that was 4 inches long. Again it's cheap down.....but still! I measured each bag (purchased 4 total) and they all were a bit over 1 pound by about a 10th of an ounce which minus the cloth pouch is about a pound of down. There were a few small feathers but nothing to freak about for the price. I did carefully smell the feathers since a different review of another cheap company said it smelled the Rose Feathers brand was scent free like it should be. I know this is one extra comment on a long reply list but that's my 2 cents on the subject.
If you are not expecting *900+* fill that's not perfectly 100% white down this is good for the price. Took only 3 days on Amazon to ship to where I live.

[Cruiser51]

Just a point on this Car Camper ... I don't think many folks would disagree that RF down is likely not going to measure up when tested. If you are thinking it is in the range of 650 FP and are willing to accept that FP for your project, why wouldn't you just buy 650+ from a North American dealer ... their prices seem to be lower for that FP.

Brian

[PharmGeek]

holy thread revival I know...yall im way overdue on reporting back....ive filled two UQ's with this RF down I got in the 4lb bag...and in both cases I overstuffed by my calculations more than any quilts I had done to date, and the end result on visual inspection is "adequate" as far as fill...I actually think both jobs could have used another couple ounces ideally>

I wish I had my hands on one of those down FP devices out there lol....

The down did fill the job...and it seems "ok"...for the price, my buddy got his kids some UQ's for a bargain price, but the FP I suspect or fear is not really close to as advertised....

I STILL have 1 oz in a nice little presealed package from wilderness logics (marty passed away sadly and I think they went outa business), I have about 15 oz of 850 down from dutch, and then 2 more lbs about from RF...I plan on this week doing some kind of fiddling, perhaps 1 oz each.

It seems if I can find a plastic cylindrical container, that would be best for visual inspection...the ultralight fabrics produce almost no real resistance, so I kinda suspect if there is "much" a difference in fill power from say RF and the others, lets say its actually 650fp not 850fp...basic visual inspection will verify "some relatively large discrepancy".....without a true measurement, im not sure how much can be said?

Ive thought about making 3 fixed "tubes" that when sewn up, should yield some given fixed volume....and stuff that tube and fluff them all and see if there are differences....?

Overall, im "pretty happy" or "met my expectations" for this down...but it came under a bit for me...I thought having overstuffed based on my calculations it would be pretty darn puffy, vs. "just full and still a bit loose".

Id buy it again for budget projects though, its a steal of a price and overall "does the job" if your FP expectations are low...btw, now 1 year or more later, the down is not leaking out all over the place so theres that positive too.

[Trambo]

If you don't mind me asking ... How much was the 4 pound bag, and what was the feather percentage?

[Banjoman]

If you don't mind me asking ... How much was the 4 pound bag, and what was the feather percentage?It's for sale on Amazon. Check it out

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[PharmGeek]

If you don't mind me asking ... How much was the 4 pound bag, and what was the feather percentage?

I got it for 189 bucks

Was 95/5 as I recall


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[Cabmanhang]

Getting around to using this rf down I bought from Amazon. Made a couple of diy pillows.

The down in the 1lb bag I got is very good. It's all down with very few feathers.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190927/3145de9385f66087bfbfaaadc0e43473.jpg

I put a little over two ounces in each of three pillows and the loft is great. Responds very quickly after being compressed. I may have gotten lucky, but I wish I would have bought more at the time.

I know some folks got a bad batch, but I was highly impressed with the quality of what I received. I think I paid right at thirty dollars for the lb.

Can I get some more??

This what I bought. Looks to have more than doubled in price. Still worth it if it is the same quality.

https://www.amazon.com/Feather-Filling-Bedding-Pillow-Standard/dp/B06XC3RM1F/ref=sr_1_9?keywords=950+down&qid=1569589336&s=gateway&sr=8-9

[psyculman]

I'm presently on a second order from Rose Feather. It was super compressed in it's shipping pillow case and shrink wrap for over a year and a half, until a project came along to use it. The pillow case is the best way for me to get a little bit out at a time, and save the rest for later. (just do down stuffing out doors) Rose Feather down has been as good as the expensive down costing $8 an ounce. And lofts up perfectly well, even though compressed tight as a brick, for so long. I have some doubts about "down compression anxiety".