View Full Version : Tarp furling attachments...
Ive been thinking about this since watching Shugs video and Barefoot Child sending me ideas about how to incorporate a reefing system into the TRL. I knew these existed... just havent had a chance to get out and find them.
They are velcro wire tires. Used mainly for bundling all your AV wires together. The nice thing is they stay on the line because of their design. They are 8" long and .5" wide.
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp200/opie0074/P1010138.jpg
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp200/opie0074/P1010139.jpg
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp200/opie0074/P1010140.jpg
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp200/opie0074/P1010141.jpg
Ive figured 5 is a good number for a TRL, and 5 come in right around 4.5 grams of weight.
I think this is a better solution to cord and knots because its faster and the weight penalty is about the same as using cord.
Thoughts, ideas?
oldgringo
02-21-2010, 17:30
I like it! One quibble:
Reefing, as I understand it, is when you shorten sail, leaving part of the sail exposed to the wind. Furling is when the sail is lowered completely, and secured to the boom.
Maybe some of the blow boat types can comment.
In any case, nice solution!
Barefoot Child
02-21-2010, 17:37
:laugh::laugh::laugh:
Yes OldGringo you are right. I never thought of myself as a "Blow-boat" type. Now that's funny....I don't care who you are...that's funny!
Blow-boat...just had to say it again. :D
I like it! One quibble:
Reefing, as I understand it, is when you shorten sail, leaving part of the sail exposed to the wind. Furling is when the sail is lowered completely, and secured to the boom.
Maybe some of the blow boat types can comment.
In any case, nice solution!
Ill see if AS can edit the title for me!!
:laugh::laugh::laugh:
Yes OldGringo you are right. I never thought of myself as a "Blow-boat" type. Now that's funny....I don't care who you are...that's funny!
Blow-boat...just had to say it again. :D
Thanks for all the ideas...Just need time to get them to come to fruition!!!
Reefing, as I understand it, is when you shorten sail, leaving part of the sail exposed to the wind. Furling is when the sail is lowered completely, and secured to the boom.
Maybe some of the blow boat types can comment.
OG's got it right, though flaking a sail on a boom is not the requirement of furling--simply dousing the sail and putting it to order does. When flaked on a boom, those velcro deals look much like the "gaskets,"- lines which tie the sail to the boom or yard. And finally, blow for running down wind, but with fore and aft rigs, when tacking we "suck."
OG's got it right, though flaking a sail on a boom is not the requirement of furling--simply dousing the sail and putting it to order does. When flaked on a boom, those velcro deals look much like the "gaskets,"- lines which tie the sail to the boom or yard. And finally, blow for running down wind, but with fore and aft rigs, when tacking we "suck."
Huh??? :confused: :lol:
Scottybdiving
02-21-2010, 20:57
I like them too. I have been using 5 lengths of Lash-it that are cowhitched to the ridgeline. I found out at Mt Shasta that they are cumbersome with gloves on. I was thinking about some type of velcro attachments. Do they stay in place pretty well or slide freely down the ridgeline?
Huh??? :confused: :lol:
i'd trust him, he's a sailor
Huh??? :confused: :lol:
I'll agree with that!:lol: :lol: :lol:
Just a thought. I use those same straps for my electric cords at work and they don't last to long before they won't hold anymore. Of course they get a lot more use on the job site then on a tarp.
Unless your setting up your tarp everyday, that is:lol:
Barefoot Child
02-22-2010, 00:34
You are right we do actually get sucked along instead of blown when we are on certain tacks in a sailboat. So I guess that a better term would be Blowin' and suckin' boat. That's is funny too. :laugh::laugh:
WarmSoda
02-22-2010, 00:49
opie, can you post a backyard pic of a tarp up in the velcro loops on the ridgeline?
tomsawyer222
02-22-2010, 05:44
what about shock loops and a small plastic toggle. i saw that you created something like that for tarp attachment.
oldgringo
02-22-2010, 06:35
So....Bernoulli sucks?
opie, can you post a backyard pic of a tarp up in the velcro loops on the ridgeline?
Yup... Snowing right now though... But Ill come up with something when the weather turns.
what about shock loops and a small plastic toggle. i saw that you created something like that for tarp attachment.
Thats possible too. Im trying to please the gram weenies, though.
thomas533
02-22-2010, 12:55
You are right we do actually get sucked along instead of blown when we are on certain tacks in a sailboat. So I guess that a better term would be Blowin' and suckin' boat. That's is funny too. :laugh::laugh:
Actually, to quote one of my physics professor's t-shirts: "Science doesn't suck! (http://www.cafepress.com/+science_doesnt_suck_womens_plus_size_scoop_neck,2 02065042)"
Airfoils, either wings or sails, generate lift. It would be more accurate to say that they are pushed, than sucked. The is a high/ambient pressure on the windward side of the sail attempts to move into the low pressure zone on the leeward side the sail is pushed forward.
Sorry, sometimes my physicist side and my sailor side get crossed.
oldgringo
02-22-2010, 13:26
I don't think these guys planned on being taken literally.
And in any case, much depends on your point of view. And sail.;)
tomsawyer222
02-22-2010, 16:58
Yup... Snowing right now though... But Ill come up with something when the weather turns.
Thats possible too. Im trying to please the gram weenies, though.
ok but any serious gram weenie would not use the full ridgeline as it weighs much more than two seperate cords with no prussics or extra tarp attachment biners or S biners.....
cavscout
02-22-2010, 17:15
Just a thought. I use those same straps for my electric cords at work and they don't last to long before they won't hold anymore. Of course they get a lot more use on the job site then on a tarp.
Unless your setting up your tarp everyday, that is:lol:
Add in that some velcros will totally loose there fastening properties when they get wet also. I tried to replace the velcro on my watch band and almost the minute it was soaked the watch fell off.
How about a daisy chain of small loops. The first loop secured to the RL would loop under the tarp and back up to the RL, then the next loop would Pass thru the first loop and before looping under the tarp and back up to the ridge line...."rinse and repeat" all the way down the RL ending with a single toggle or prussic or whatever. Then to unfurl the tarp just release the first loop and the rest should fall out on their own.
I just worked one of these under running water and it didnt loose its ability to work.
ok but any serious gram weenie would not use the full ridgeline as it weighs much more than two seperate cords with no prussics or extra tarp attachment biners or S biners.....
I thought so also for a loooooooong time. Then I sat down and really analyzed how much I need for 2 separate lines and how much I need for a single ridge line. Turns out that I don't need as much additional for the single ridge line cord as I thought.
I'll base this analysis on a tree span of 20' since that is the maximum I will use and my JRB 11'x10' tarp with 10' ridge. I use the 10' riidge for the analysis since I can use either the 10' or 11' ridge and the 10' represents to maximum cord needed.
2 separate lines.
First off I need enough on each end of the tarp to reach the trees. At first glance the amount seems to be (20' - 10')/2 == 5' plus enough to go around the trees and tie off. With tree diameter of 12" that adds another 3' 2" plus whatever is needed to tie off. The amount needed to tie off is subjective, but I'll allow 3'. So this would seem to indicate that I'll need 5' + 3' 2" + 3' == 11' 2" on each end of the tarp. Actually, the ends will need more than this since the above assumes that the tarp will be exactly centered between the trees. This cannot always be guaranteed or desired. The tarp may need to be adjusted as much as 1' or 2' closer to one tree or the other, so allow for 2' off center. This 2' would be added to both end lines. Thus, I need 2 lines of 13' 2" for a total of 26' 4" of guy line cord for 2 separate lines. This will have to be adjusted if you hang from trees with a larger diameter or greater span. So far I have ignored the line needed to attach each line to the tarp ridge tie outs. I'll allow 6" for each attachment knot. That gives a grand total of 27' 4".
If you need to off-center the tarp by more than 2', add the additional needed line to each end line, an additional 1' of line for each additional 1' off-center beyond the 2' I have allowed for.
single ridge line.
First off, I need 20' to span from one tree to the other. Then I need to add to this the amount to go around one tree, 12" diameter, 3' 2", plus whatever is needed to make a small 1" loop on the end of the rope used to toggle back onto the line. Say 4" of line which gives me a running total of 23' 6". You will notice I don't need as much on this end as for the separate lines since I don't need to tie a knot to secure. For the other end I will need the same amount that the single lines need on both ends to go around the tree and secure, 3' 2" + 3'. So I have a total for a single ridge line of 29' 8". Notice that with the single ridge line I don't need to add cord to account for an off-center tarp. I need to add enough cord for 2 Prussics. I'll allow 12" of cord for each Prussic, so I have another 2' of cord for a grand total of 31' 8"
Totals:
Separate cords: 27' 4" minimum for up to a 2' off-center tarp
Single ridge line cord: 31' 8" - off center tarp does not need any extra.
Thus, the single ridge line cord uses 4' 4" more cord.
Using 2 mm Zing-It that amounts to 0.1 oz
Using 2 mm Dynaglide that amounts to 0.06 oz
I haven't accounted for the toggles needed for the single ridge line cord, since we don't carry them, but simply pick them up off the ground as needed and return them to the ground when done with them.
The above is the bare minimum for each set-up. If you use a small Figure 9 to secure the single ridge line add another 12" for a Prussic and the weight of the Figure 9. If you use small Figure 9s for the separate ridge cords, add the weight of 2 small Figure 9s and maybe 2 Prussics to attach them.
0.1 oz or 0.06 oz for the convenience of a single ridge line (at least I regard the single ridge line to be a convenience over the separate cords :D) is a simple trade off for me. :D
Added Note; The shorter the tarp ridge, the smaller the advantage of the separate ridge cords. For example for an 8' tarp ridge, the separate cord advantage drops to 2' 4" less cord and the weight advantage drops to well below 0.1 oz. By the same token, the longer the tarp ridge, the greater the separate cord advantage. With a 12' tarp ridge the separate cord advantage is 6' 4" less cord and correspondingly less weight. Of course with a 12' tarp ridge, you have to have a greater tree span so a longer tarp ridge isn't much of an advantage.
teedee that seems very convincing and complex.
however...
i have 2, 8 foot sections of line for my ridgeline. that equals 16'
if i wanted a full length ridgeline i would have to add 10' to my total, giving me 26'.
i pick the trees according to my line, not the line according to the trees
oldgringo
02-23-2010, 09:40
I'll prolly just stick 5 or 6 short lengths of mason twine at right angles through the RL. A figure 8 knot buried in the RL should keep each one in place, and not derate the RL very much.
Yes, having several short sections of line to tie is the obvious choice.
Im thinking though in times of haste, like you needing to get your tarp up cause youre getting wet... speed is the key.
I like the SC idea too, but that has a higher weight penalty than the velcro ties.
oldgringo
02-23-2010, 09:46
Yes, having several short sections of line to tie is the obvious choice.
Im thinking though in times of haste, like you needing to get your tarp up cause youre getting wet... speed is the key.
If you use a shoelace knot, one little jerk...
bazza2154
02-23-2010, 10:17
The system using Velcro attached to the ridge line (or any other system) to reef the tarp only appears to work with a ridge line over the tarp you cannot use this if the ridge line is under the tarp. Is part of the rationality of a ridge line over the tarp that you can keep the ridge line separate and hang the tarp to a ridge line already installed to trees therefore letting you sue the same ridge line for many different tarps or perhaps even to use at lunch break to suspend say a lightweight poncho if you did not want to get your full tarp out.
If you want to reef your tarp but not use skins how about using lengths of shock cord loops that push back on the ridge line and are easily pulled over a furled up tarp as it is packed away.
cavscout
02-23-2010, 10:51
You could still use these methods with an Under Tarp RL, but it's probably more convenient with Over Tarp RL.
The system using Velcro attached to the ridge line (or any other system) to reef the tarp only appears to work with a ridge line over the tarp you cannot use this if the ridge line is under the tarp. Is part of the rationality of a ridge line over the tarp that you can keep the ridge line separate and hang the tarp to a ridge line already installed to trees therefore letting you sue the same ridge line for many different tarps or perhaps even to use at lunch break to suspend say a lightweight poncho if you did not want to get your full tarp out.
If you want to reef your tarp but not use skins how about using lengths of shock cord loops that push back on the ridge line and are easily pulled over a furled up tarp as it is packed away.
These will work either over or under.
The shock cord is an excellent idea as well. Kinda like the 6" or so loops with the plastic ball on the end. They come at a stiffer weight penalty, thats all.
i just "furl" my tarp with my already attached guylines (the 4 bottom tie outs). maybe i'm missing something though
....
i have 2, 8 foot sections of line for my ridgeline. that equals 16'
if i wanted a full length ridgeline i would have to add 10' to my total, giving me 26'. ....s
Not really.
If 2 8' sections currently work, then you would not need to add another 10' for a full ridge line.
Adding only 2', for a total of 18', would give you the same tree spanning capability with a full ridge line.
One note and this a is simply a matter of preference.
When I set up my tarp, I like to set the ridge line and then attach the tarp to the ridge line.
I find it easier for me to do them separately.
When I developed the technique for furling my tarp, I experimented with having the furling strings/Velcro attached to the ridge line or the tarp.
Having the Velcro attached to the tarp didn't work since the Velcro picked up debris and clogged.
Having the Velcro attached to the ridge line didn't work since that meant the the ridge line and tarp are always set up and taken down as one unit. That works, but I prefer doing the ridge line without the tarp on it. Snake Skins didn't work for me because of this.
After my experiments I finally settled on attaching the furling strings to 2 sides of the tarp. I attach to 2 sides of the JRB tarp so that I can use either the 10' or the 11' ridge.
As I said, this is purely a matter of personal preference. For people that don't mind running the ridge line with the tarp attached, then having the means of furling attached to the ridge line will work very well.
I mention this because it is a consideration.
i just "furl" my tarp with my already attached guylines (the 4 bottom tie outs). maybe i'm missing something though
Thats another possibility. Not everyone leaves their guy lines attached. But I guess they could still be used.
One note and this a is simply a matter of preference.
When I set up my tarp, I like to set the ridge line and then attach the tarp to the ridge line.
I find it easier for me to do them separately.
When I developed the technique for furling my tarp, I experimented with having the furling strings/Velcro attached to the ridge line or the tarp.
Having the Velcro attached to the tarp didn't work since the Velcro picked up debris and clogged.
Having the Velcro attached to the ridge line didn't work since that meant the the ridge line and tarp are always set up and taken down as one unit. That works, but I prefer doing the ridge line without the tarp on it. Snake Skins didn't work for me because of this.
After my experiments I finally settled on attaching the furling strings to 2 sides of the tarp. I attach to 2 sides of the JRB tarp so that I can use either the 10' or the 11' ridge.
As I said, this is purely a matter of personal preference. For people that don't mind running the ridge line with the tarp attached, then having the means of furling attached to the ridge line will work very well.
I mention this because it is a consideration.
This is one of those "give and take" situations IMO. Every option has it +'s and -'s.
Shock cord/toggle.... This particular one weighs 7 grams. I know I can get it lighter by shortening the toggle a little and drilling 2 holes on either side of the center hole. I can also go with smaller SC, this one has 1/8"
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp200/opie0074/P1010149.jpg
tomsawyer222
02-24-2010, 06:28
Shock cord/toggle.... This particular one weighs 7 grams. I know I can get it lighter by shortening the toggle a little and drilling 2 holes on either side of the center hole. I can also go with smaller SC, this one has 1/8"
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp200/opie0074/P1010149.jpg
now that looks good its quick on and off wont wear out very quick and 4-5 of them would be under an ounce still
oldgringo
02-24-2010, 06:40
You could make these up around the rl, so they couldn't get lost.
Another thought: have you looked @ small pvc pipe for a toggle? You could prolly just thread a short piece onto the sc...no drilling.
oldgringo
02-24-2010, 06:59
Or a short piece of that silicone tubing.
bazza2154
02-24-2010, 07:13
You could make these up around the rel, so they couldn't get lost.
Another thought: have you looked @ small PVC pipe for a toggle? You could Polly just thread a short piece onto the sc...no drilling.
Why use a toggle just use shock cord and use a nail knot to keep the profile small (form the nail knot cut the cord and heat seal the ends). Then as you reef the tarp from one end just slide the shock cord over the tarp (its already around the ridge line so it wont get lost) and work your way down the tarp. Similar to a snake skin.
You could make these up around the rl, so they couldn't get lost.
Another thought: have you looked @ small pvc pipe for a toggle? You could prolly just thread a short piece onto the sc...no drilling.
Yes, they could be built around the RL.
PVC gets brittle when exposed to cold and IF it breaks, creates edges sharp enough to cut.
Or a short piece of that silicone tubing.
Yes... Im working on that angle.
Why use a toggle just use shock cord and use a nail knot to keep the profile small (form the nail knot cut the cord and heat seal the ends). Then as you reef the tarp from one end just slide the shock cord over the tarp (its already around the ridge line so it wont get lost) and work your way down the tarp. Similar to a snake skin.
Had to look up a "nail knot."
Not sure how that will work with the SC... perhaps Ill try it.
However... I think working the SC from one end to the middle of the furled tarp eats into the "quick" aspect of getting your tarp in and out.
Pictures...
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp200/opie0074/P1010163.jpg
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp200/opie0074/P1010164.jpg
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp200/opie0074/P1010166.jpg
tomsawyer222
02-25-2010, 20:18
instead of using cable ties if you sewed up some regular velcro into strips to put on the RL it would last longer... the cable tie velcro is kinda cheap
instead of using cable ties if you sewed up some regular velcro into strips to put on the RL it would last longer... the cable tie velcro is kinda cheap
I actually like the SC/toggle better. But someone asked for pictures so I put them up.
Ill work on the other option as time permits.
ikemouser
02-25-2010, 20:59
Nice job opie, in regards to whether to use one ridge line or two pieces of string, it always made my life much easier being able to slide that tarp where ever i wanted with that single ridge line using prussics. Allowing me to align the tarp directly over the hammock for best coverage made my hammock experience much easier, and i wont be trading it in, ever i think. Teedee's idea anyway, thanks teedee!
I came across those velcro strips for $3 for 25 strips at Big Lots in the hardware section.
tomsawyer222
02-26-2010, 07:29
I actually like the SC/toggle better. But someone asked for pictures so I put them up.
Ill work on the other option as time permits.
thats great let me know how the SC and toggles work out i may be interested in that.
I came across those velcro strips for $3 for 25 strips at Big Lots in the hardware section.
Yep, IIRC I paid $5 for 50 of them at lowes.
Why use a toggle just use shock cord and use a nail knot to keep the profile small (form the nail knot cut the cord and heat seal the ends). Then as you reef the tarp from one end just slide the shock cord over the tarp (its already around the ridge line so it wont get lost) and work your way down the tarp. Similar to a snake skin.
Had to look up a "nail knot."
Not sure how that will work with the SC... perhaps Ill try it.
However... I think working the SC from one end to the middle of the furled tarp eats into the "quick" aspect of getting your tarp in and out.
I think what Bazza's approach is using the nail knot to create SC bands (like a rubberband) after you reef, then you just slide the SC bands down and over the reefed tarp.
bazza2154
02-26-2010, 15:32
I think what Bazza's approach is using the nail knot to create SC bands (like a rubberband) after you reef, then you just slide the SC bands down and over the reefed tarp.
In a nutshell thanks Bob
I think what Bazza's approach is using the nail knot to create SC bands (like a rubberband) after you reef, then you just slide the SC bands down and over the reefed tarp.
Yep.. And I like it.
However... Try getting your tarp furled up and then hold it with one hand while you use your other to open up a loop of SC and slide it down.
Maybe itll be easier than I imagine...
bazza2154
02-26-2010, 17:22
Yep.. And I like it.
However... Try getting your tarp furled up and then hold it with one hand while you use your other to open up a loop of SC and slide it down.
Maybe itll be easier than I imagine...
When I use skins on my Hex I roll the tarp from one end straight up the vertical. This by default rolls up a significant part of the remainder of the tarp not as tight but at least to 3/4 of the length. Pull the first skin 1/3 of the way go to the other end and bunch up the loose unfurled and roll up. Pull second skin and then complete the first skin pull. This is no different using shock cords with a nail knot as they just slide over the furled tarp without having to open them up. I prefer the skins as they keep a wet tarp from shedding water everywhere but it is a bit bulkier if you then try and stuff in a sack. I roll my skins in a sort of flat oval and wrap the ridge line around to keep compacted. However I dont have the sinlon tarp so its not as light as the more expensive version and packs bigger.
When I use skins on my Hex I roll the tarp from one end straight up the vertical. This by default rolls up a significant part of the remainder of the tarp not as tight but at least to 3/4 of the length. Pull the first skin 1/3 of the way go to the other end and bunch up the loose unfurled and roll up. Pull second skin and then complete the first skin pull. This is no different using shock cords with a nail knot as they just slide over the furled tarp without having to open them up. I prefer the skins as they keep a wet tarp from shedding water everywhere but it is a bit bulkier if you then try and stuff in a sack. I roll my skins in a sort of flat oval and wrap the ridge line around to keep compacted. However I dont have the sinlon tarp so its not as light as the more expensive version and packs bigger.
Perhaps Im envisioning the loop being tighter than you are.
Im thinking that youll have to stretch the SC a bit to get it over the tarp.
If your talking about simply sliding it, then no need for SC, just use a loop of rope.
When I use skins on my Hex I roll the tarp from one end straight up the vertical. This by default rolls up a significant part of the remainder of the tarp not as tight but at least to 3/4 of the length. Pull the first skin 1/3 of the way go to the other end and bunch up the loose unfurled and roll up. Pull second skin and then complete the first skin pull. This is no different using shock cords with a nail knot as they just slide over the furled tarp without having to open them up. I prefer the skins as they keep a wet tarp from shedding water everywhere but it is a bit bulkier if you then try and stuff in a sack. I roll my skins in a sort of flat oval and wrap the ridge line around to keep compacted. However I dont have the sinlon tarp so its not as light as the more expensive version and packs bigger.
Comparing the snake skins to the sc loops is not really valid.
With the snake skin, you are pulling the skin onto the tarp and the portion covered, stays covered.
With the sc loops you have to pull each loop from the end of the tarp into position. Each loop has to traverse the same portion of the tarp that previous loops traversed.
If the first sc loop is set into position as closest to the end, then all subsequent sc loops must be pulled over the first sc loop. All sc loops must be pulled over the same portion of the tarp and all previous loops.
If the first sc loop is positioned furtherest from the end and the same pattern followed for all subsequent loops, then all of the end portion of the tarp must be re-bunched and hand held while each and every loop is pulled into position.
That is a whole lot more work than a snake skin and a whole lot more work than having each loop pre-prositioned along the ridge line.
Just my opinion from experimenting with various options for furling string material and furling string positions and from a few months of furling my tarp and having used 2 different snake skin designs.
But then the decision to furl or not to furl and the means of furling is very much determined by personal preference anyway. :lol:
I know people whose only consideration for storing their tarp is to stuff it into a mesh pocket on their pack and they think anything more complicated is crazy. :lol: Maybe they're right :D
Buliding on previous ideas, I made 3 Tarp Ridegline Reefing cords that weigh 2 grams each. For the BigMamajamba, it seems to only require 3 cords at 6 grams total.
1. Make loop at each end of small 12" shock cord (1gram).
2. Larkshead one end to small plastic mitton hook (1gm)
3. Then larkshead the hook through the other loop onto the RL.
4. Roll tarp up and hook the mitten hook to either the SC or RL
With SC, it can be easily moved up and down the RL but has enough tension to stay in place.
Works fine whether RL is over or under. If RL is under (like mine), just flip one side of the tarp over to the other side and it will now be hanging as an over the tarp RL for purposes of rolling up the tarp onto the reefing cords.
PS- not sure if I have the terminology correct for some of this!
alrany187
09-10-2012, 17:14
I am sorry for re-opening this thread after 2+ years, but I felt it was more valid than starting a new one.
Following on the ideas of this thread and primarily Hokie's, I used 12" of shock cord and a Dutch hook to make my furling connectors. Made a large loop with a double fisherman's knot, putting the shock cord through the Dutch hook, then larksheaded around the RL, wrapped around the tarp and then snapped into the RL. Works beautifully.
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/3938/1001188t.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/26/1001188t.jpg/)
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/3589/1001189s.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/20/1001189s.jpg/)
Ellis
Don't apologize! This is great!
I'm thinking of ditching my snake sins for this setup.