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Equalizer
06-28-2018, 01:59
This is a response to a question that keeps coming up. Since it was asked by someone enlisted, my answer is respectfully addressed to those in uniform. However, the information concerning general use of DEET and specifically synthetic Permethrins apply to the general hammock community. The same chemicals and fabric treatments apply. The author considers the following a matter of personal health and pest control that he has found to be effective.

To those who wish to treat their hammocks, clothes, or uniforms with chemical solutions, please consider safer options.

The BDU, battle dress uniforms, already have too many chemicals in them. If you speak to mills that provide textiles for uniforms, they will inform you that there is a cocktail of chemicals, some of which are not going to wash out. Assume that whatever touches your skin will penetrate the skin and body.
IMHO, there are better/safer ways to repel pests.
Permethrin is among other things a neural (nervous system /brain+nerves) toxin. See citation below that answers the question of toxicity. But first...
What I use personally is a combination of weapons against pests. Unlike synthetic chemicals, to the best of my knowledge these choices don't harm the one using them:

*1. B complex vitamins. Good quality, ie Youngevity brand.
*2. Bee pollen. Contains good nutrients that make you less of a target, while boosting the energy level and replacing minerals.
*3. Garlic in food. Easier to implement for weekend warrior, or reserves. Food tastes better but not to parasites.
*4. Rub plant leaves that are local on the outside of the bdu. IE. Identify them and use those known to repel like in the mint family and many others. It will vary as to region. Some, like lavender, are easily available as house plants and have leaves that can be used while readily available.
*5. Purchase ready made plant oils. Tea tree oil/melaleuca, eucalyptus and lime/lemon oils. I will not write a book here, for brevity look them up. In the future I'll do a podcast where we'll get into more details. Can simply be diluted in a little sprayer like a hand sanitizer, and lightly sprayed on outer clothing. Just as easy to use as harmful chemicals. It washes off, so I reapply when needed, but beats getting cancer, ms, or ending up in a VA "hospital "while some quack pretending to play Dr kills you. That's a place I'd avoid more than a beaten zone. Better the enemy you know than the enemy within as far as I'm concerned.
* This is what I've done and not to be taken as advice. Judge for yourself since we all live with benefits and consequences of our personal choices.

Simple barrier against ticks are a rubber band on your cuffs. If bloused inside the boots, they often come out during PT, physical training. Even tied, better to have elastic, then check periodically for ticks. In heavy mosquito area drop a net from the one tucked under your cover. There's ways to attach easily. Plus, head gear with essential oils properly applied works for me. If anyone rasses you they will not do it after their sleepless itchy night.
Those are simple easy solutions that I have been fortunate to avoid tick bites for over a decade; handling ticky game, and wildlife while working in tick country. That said, I've always been THE mosquito magnet at camp until using those simple tips.

This topics keeps coming up, so I think I should post it as a new thread so many more can benefit.

I advise against Deet at all costs. It's worse than synthsized permethrin. Maybe my brevity and bluntness comes off as preachy, but hang your own hang. Or as some say, pick your poison. I'm only taking time to say this as someone who cares. Below is a brief citation from a text addressing this issue.

Book cited from the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine:
Health Effects of Permethrin-Impregnated Army Battle-Dress Uniforms (1994) ch.4
" Death in animals occurs within 3 days of exposure to permethrin. The cis/trans isomeric ratio also appears to affect toxicity, the cis isomer being more toxic than the trans isomer in animals (Table 4-2).
Clinical signs of toxicity, when evident, occur within 2 hr and are associated with central nervous system functions. Permethrin belongs to the Type I group of pyrethroids, and exposure to permethrin is associated with tremors (T syndrome), convulsions, irregular breathing and increased respiratory rates, incoordination, ataxia, hyperactivity, prostration, and paralysis. Other signs that have been reported include hyperexcitability to external stimuli, lacrimation, occasional diarrhea, defecation, and urinary incontinence (Ishmael, 1989). Core body temperature is increased when clinical signs are severe. Signs of toxicity can last up to 3 days after acute exposure."
______________________________
This commercial chemical is Not like walking though a patch of chrysanthemum flowers as some would have you think. This week and next i'll be working around skeeters, parasites, including fleas. FWIW, I've learned a few things from experience with wildlife and in toxicology.

I have advised recruits and officers to keep in mind that God and your family love you. The top brass and VA hospitals are Neither. Just ask the few old timers still alive after agent orange exposure, the gulf war syndrome, and experimental shots. Those who are not...can not speak for themselves.

Stay safe!
To your Health and Happiness,

Equalizer
Last edited by Equalizer; Today at 02:01.
Opossums! "Destroyers of ticks"...and mice!
https://www.fox25boston.com/news/dont-hit-that-opossum-how-opossums-help-fight-ticks-and-lyme-disease/768984007

jeff-oh
06-28-2018, 06:53
Book cited from the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine:
Health Effects of Permethrin-Impregnated Army Battle-Dress Uniforms (1994) ch.4
" Death in animals occurs within 3 days of exposure to permethrin. The cis/trans isomeric ratio also appears to affect toxicity, the cis isomer being more toxic than the trans isomer in animals (Table 4-2).
Clinical signs of toxicity, when evident, occur within 2 hr and are associated with central nervous system functions. Permethrin belongs to the Type I group of pyrethroids, and exposure to permethrin is associated with tremors (T syndrome), convulsions, irregular breathing and increased respiratory rates, incoordination, ataxia, hyperactivity, prostration, and paralysis. Other signs that have been reported include hyperexcitability to external stimuli, lacrimation, occasional diarrhea, defecation, and urinary incontinence (Ishmael, 1989). Core body temperature is increased when clinical signs are severe. Signs of toxicity can last up to 3 days after acute exposure."

Taking a single statement out of context and presenting as it was done is very mis-leading. The actual dosage tested that provided the results quoted above is:
"The acute (single dose) oral LD50 of technical-grade permethrin (purity 90.5-97.2% and consisting of mixtures of cis/trans isomers in various proportions) in animals (rats, mice, guinea pigs, and chickens) is in the range of 0.5-5 g/kg of body weight,"

No one is disputing that a human should not eat a 1 pound pill of nearly pure permithrin. This is the dose being studied. By contrast the amount being applied to a the external surface of a shirt or pants is approximately 0.001 g

Though the post was probably posted out of concern, the presentation IMHO is misleading and overstating the references sited. I also find the underlying assumption disturbing, in that this post may insinuate that the US government is knowingly poisoning its service people. I take the study to represent what the study purpose statement says, that the US government wants to make sure its service people are totally safe and that using permithrin is not harmful to them.

From the study:
"Summary
More active military service days have been lost to diseases—many of them transmitted by insects—than to combat. In the Vietnam War and the Persian Gulf War, disease casualties (caused mostly by insect bites) outnumbered combat casualties. U.S. military personnel deployed on field operations all over the world face an increased risk of mortality or morbidity from insect-borne diseases. ...

Before introducing permethrin-impregnated BDUs for military personnel, the U.S. Army wanted a thorough and independent evaluation of the safety of wearing them or working with permethrin-impregnated fabric (as do garment workers) for long periods. Therefore, the Army requested that the National Research Council (NRC) review the toxicological and exposure data on permethrin to determine whether wearing BDUs impregnated with permethrin (at a concentration of 0.125 mg/cm2of fabric) 18 hr per day, 7 days per week, for up to 10 years is safe for soldiers, and whether handling permethrin-impregnated fabric is safe for garment workers.

The conclusion of this study is that permithrin controls insect and insect transmitted diseases with extremely little risk or side effects to people.

I will conclude that if you have questions with regard to the safety, effects or effectiveness of permithrin then this study is actually a great read.

cmoulder
06-28-2018, 07:09
I'm just now starting to recover from a very bad virus of some sort that has ruined my life for the past 6 weeks. Extreme fatigue and previously flu-like symptoms.

Been to the doc 3 times and have tested negative for Lyme and a few other things, but went to a specialist last week who thinks it could be one of the several other diseases ticks carry. They took about a half pint of blood in order to check for these and other possible exotic crap that might be afflicting me. Test results are due any day now, so I still don't know for sure it's ticks or whatnot.

However, if the tick-borne diseases are anything like what I have now, I'll take my chances with deet and permethrin. :mellow:

Five Tango
06-28-2018, 07:32
Apple cider vinegar capsules and B complex vitamins are working against airborne pests for me.I don't know if it works on ticks or not because I Do wear permethrin treated gaiters and clothes.I also carry some picardin or lemon eucalyptus but have not used it in a long time.DEET will ruin your gear if you're not very careful so read the label.

OneClick
06-28-2018, 07:49
I discount the "natural-grandmas-old-home-remedy" stuff 99% of the time. Just too many failures from past experiences. I'll stop using permethrin when they start saying it causes cancer...I figure we have another 5-10 years until then.

bigdisgrace
06-28-2018, 07:57
concerning the concentration rates......after diluting Martins 10% strength permethrin to .05% and soaking and air drying my hiking clothes, I placed an ant inside my cap and it took 20 min. for the ant to die. Its a repellant not a contact killer. Mosquitoes being more sensitive won't even land on treated bugnets.

cmoulder
06-28-2018, 09:31
I discount the "natural-grandmas-old-home-remedy" stuff 99% of the time. Just too many failures from past experiences. I'll stop using permethrin when they start saying it causes cancer...I figure we have another 5-10 years until then.

As i mentioned elsewhere, some of my friends were using picaridin in the Pharaoh Wilderness (ADKs) and were nearly eaten alive. Even with 40% deet (Repel Max (https://www.amazon.com/Sportsmen-Formula-Insect-Repellent-Lotion/dp/B000PGJ4LA/ref=pd_lpo_vtph_86_lp_img_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=BK3BACKCE72BCDNETBB1)) we still got a few bites, but it was FAR better.

OneClick
06-28-2018, 09:36
As i mentioned elsewhere, some of my friends were using picaridin in the Pharaoh Wilderness (ADKs) and were nearly eaten alive. Even with 40% deet (Repel Max (https://www.amazon.com/Sportsmen-Formula-Insect-Repellent-Lotion/dp/B000PGJ4LA/ref=pd_lpo_vtph_86_lp_img_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=BK3BACKCE72BCDNETBB1)) we still got a few bites, but it was FAR better.

I'm liking the picaridin lotion so far, but haven't been in any hot zones to give it a major test yet. But combined with permethrin, I felt I was really keeping them away.

cmoulder
06-28-2018, 09:38
concerning the concentration rates......after diluting Martins 10% strength permethrin to .05% and soaking and air drying my hiking clothes, I placed an ant inside my cap and it took 20 min. for the ant to die. Its a repellant not a contact killer. Mosquitoes being more sensitive won't even land on treated bugnets.

Similar experience here. I was wearing some Rail Riders InsectShield pants and put a tick on the thigh area. I corralled him in the same area for about 15 minutes and nothing happened. These pants had been washed only 1 time and the treatment is purported to last 70 washings, so that wasn't the problem.

Grumpy Squatch
06-28-2018, 12:07
Taking a single statement out of context and presenting as it was done is very mis-leading.

The conclusion of this study is that permithrin controls insect and insect transmitted diseases with extremely little risk or side effects to people.

I will conclude that if you have questions with regard to the safety, effects or effectiveness of permithrin then this study is actually a great read.

Bravo jeff-o! Thank you.

This statement is also mostly incorrect:


Assume that whatever touches your skin will penetrate the skin and body.

First, because Permethrin designed to protect clothing is always mixed with a binding agent, to hold it on the fabric through wear and washings. It is specifically designed to stay on the clothes and not quickly wash or absorb off. Second, because many factors influence dermal absorption. Some good background information: https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/skin/default.html

They say,
The rate of dermal absorption depends largely on the outer layer of the skin called the stratum corneum (SC). The SC serves [as] an important barrier function by keeping molecules from passing into and out of the skin, thus protecting the lower layers of skin. The extent of absorption is dependent on the following factors:


Skin integrity (damaged vs. intact)
Location of exposure (thickness and water content of stratum corneum; skin temperature)
Physical and chemical properties of the hazardous substance
Concentration of a chemical on the skin surface
Duration of exposure
The surface area of skin exposed to a hazardous substance



Permethrin specifically is one of the most widely used treatments for lice and other insect infestations of the skin and hair. It is commonly applied directly to skin on children all around the world, so its absorption and metabolism have been extensively studied. And just because something is absorbed doesn't mean it is harmful. From one such study (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00228-005-0932-7). There are many others if you search Google Scholar for "dermal absorption of permethrin."



Results
Pharmacokinetics were similar in all study parts. The time of maximal urinary excretion rate was 12.3, 20.0 and 14.6 h, terminal elimination half-life was 32.7, 28.8 and 37.8 h and urinary recovery of the metabolite reached 0.35, 0.47 and 0.52 M percent of the permethrin dose, respectively, in parts 1, 2 and 3 (means). The treatment was well tolerated.

Conclusions
The extent of systemic exposure following external therapeutic administration of permethrin is very low compared with doses used for preclinical toxicity studies, and elimination is virtually complete after 1 week. These data provide the pharmacokinetic basis for the clinical safety of topical permethrin.

That's topical meaning applied directly to the skin in concentrations around 1% (in over-the-counter lice remedies like Nix) and higher by prescription for scabies and other conditions. The limited amount present on clothing (usually soaked in concentrations of 0.5% - 0.75%) and usually bound to the fabric with a polymer of some kind should produce far less possible absorption in the first place, even if over a larger surface area of skin.

Equalizer
06-28-2018, 14:13
Jeff oh,

Is synthetic permethrin a neurotoxin, or is it Not?

Equalizer
06-28-2018, 14:35
Delete due to double post.

chefkeith
06-28-2018, 15:53
Jeff oh,

Is synthetic permethrin a neurotoxin, or is it Not?

Of course it is. So is ethyl alcohol, but it’s only harmful in large quantities.

I don’t think anyone here is disputing that fact. The very study that you posted showed the opposite of your personal beliefs.

If you chose to believe something other than the study reports, you should point out the flaws in their research or conduct your own study.

Here’s a link to the study in case it hasn’t been posted yet: https://www.nap.edu/read/9274/chapter/2

Chesapeake
06-28-2018, 21:36
You all know my thoughts on this issue..... I'd pour 10 gallons of gasoline on myself while smoking a cigarette if the gas kept the BLOOD SUCKING TICKS, BLOOD SUCKING SPIDERS AND FACE EATING RACOONS away lol. Get rid of the headache by cutting off the head is what I say lol, I'll deal with the side effects if I'm fact there are any later. I treat my boots, gaitors and pack with 100% DEET, everything else and skin with Permethrin + Picardin and have never had any problems. I even ~ carefully ~ spray it on my wife and kids and their gear/legs/arms too.... So far we are side effect and disease free! I did find out last week that nymph Lone Star ticks are so fast that they will crawl from boot to upper leg well before the chemicals kick in. The ones that got stuck under my laces ,in the mesh of my boots, on my gaitors did all die after a few mins , and the few that did make it up my leg died before they could latch on completely. I'd say it worked...... and it wasn't 2 or 3 ticks either, no it was more like 200-300. No joke. Tigglet and Jellyfish had the same amounts on them as well.

hutzelbein
06-29-2018, 10:04
For what it's worth: essential oils like tea tree, eucalyptus, lime and lemon can be quite toxic as well if used wrongly or in too high quantities. Still you suggest using them. Yes, some of the remedies you list are working to some extent, but they are far less effective and need to be applied in higher frequency in order to offer a reasonable amount of protection. Also, you can never be sure that they work at any given time. That might be acceptable if all you risk is an itchy spot. To me it stops being acceptable when there is a high risk of catching a serious disease. I'd rather use Permethrin, Icaridin or even Deet than having to take much worse drugs later on to cure something that could have been prevented with less damage.

Heydad!
07-02-2018, 10:12
A guy I work with today contracted Lymes disease while we were at SERE school. Typical military he was not diagnosed for years, when the effects had become severe. He's still alive today, but is suffering a living hell. I would not hesitate to use the strongest available chemicals to prevent this, the risks of misdiagnosis are far too high and the disease effects far too severe. I soak everything in Permethrin and use Deet liberally every time I go in the mountains and then check myself regularly.

TxAggie
07-02-2018, 11:28
A guy I work with today contracted Lymes disease while we were at SERE school. Typical military he was not diagnosed for years, when the effects had become severe. He's still alive today, but is suffering a living hell. I would not hesitate to use the strongest available chemicals to prevent this, the risks of misdiagnosis are far too high and the disease effects far too severe. I soak everything in Permethrin and use Deet liberally every time I go in the mountains and then check myself regularly.

Spot on. Thank you.


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trouthunter
07-27-2018, 10:38
Haven't posted here in quite a while, just been very busy.

I'm sure I'm in no way alone or special and many members here already have much experience with this, but for what it's worth.........

I backpack and canoe in an area heavy with insects, this would be freshwater & saltwater marshes, including inland riverine swamps located in the coastal plain of South Carolina.
I employ long sleeves & pants, I treat my fabrics with Permethrin, and I use 3M Ultrathon (controlled release Deet) on exposed skin.
Etc. Etc.

I have tried "natural" repellents many times, including vitamins, supplement, lotions, oils, etc.
Some of these had limited effect for short periods of time in areas with light bug populations.

In areas with dense bug populations, these "natural" repellents are a complete joke as far as I'm concerned. They simply are not effective for me, nor do they seem to be effective for others I see trying them.
I think it is wrong to promote " natural" remedies to folks and then send them off into bug infested areas (debatebly) unprotected.
If someone wishes to try something natural thats fine, but I would advise they also carry some Deet (or similar) with them if they are venturing out away from their vehicle.
What may seem to work in your backyard may be quite ineffective in a wilderness setting. I have learned that lesson many times!

I'm far more concerned with bug bites and the resulting possibility to contract disease or infection than the very limited exposure to Deet, Permethrin, etc. I'm exposing myself to.
This is something I've put considerable thought into over the years, and I've come to the conclusion that some people just have what I call Toxiphobia.

They seem to divide things into 2 simple groups:
Natural or Chemical

Natural being good for you, organic, safe, and effective.

Chemical being evil, man-made, and will cause you to go insane, grow an extra eyeball or something.

This is how they feel and no amount of reason or logic will change their mind.

I offer this challenge - grab your Skin so Soft, or Vitamin B tablets and join me for a weekend in Hell Hole swamp during the summer and let's see what happens. Maybe it works for some people.

Redfish
07-27-2018, 22:24
Well, I totally respect everyone who has it in for deet and permethrin, BUT, take it from someone who got very, very sick from Rocky Mtn. Spotted Fever, You don’t want it.

TxAggie
07-28-2018, 11:12
Haven't posted here in quite a while, just been very busy.

I'm sure I'm in no way alone or special and many members here already have much experience with this, but for what it's worth.........

I backpack and canoe in an area heavy with insects, this would be freshwater & saltwater marshes, including inland riverine swamps located in the coastal plain of South Carolina.
I employ long sleeves & pants, I treat my fabrics with Permethrin, and I use 3M Ultrathon (controlled release Deet) on exposed skin.
Etc. Etc.

I have tried "natural" repellents many times, including vitamins, supplement, lotions, oils, etc.
Some of these had limited effect for short periods of time in areas with light bug populations.

In areas with dense bug populations, these "natural" repellents are a complete joke as far as I'm concerned. They simply are not effective for me, nor do they seem to be effective for others I see trying them.
I think it is wrong to promote " natural" remedies to folks and then send them off into bug infested areas (debatebly) unprotected.
If someone wishes to try something natural thats fine, but I would advise they also carry some Deet (or similar) with them if they are venturing out away from their vehicle.
What may seem to work in your backyard may be quite ineffective in a wilderness setting. I have learned that lesson many times!

I'm far more concerned with bug bites and the resulting possibility to contract disease or infection than the very limited exposure to Deet, Permethrin, etc. I'm exposing myself to.
This is something I've put considerable thought into over the years, and I've come to the conclusion that some people just have what I call Toxiphobia.

They seem to divide things into 2 simple groups:
Natural or Chemical

Natural being good for you, organic, safe, and effective.

Chemical being evil, man-made, and will cause you to go insane, grow an extra eyeball or something.

This is how they feel and no amount of reason or logic will change their mind.

I offer this challenge - grab your Skin so Soft, or Vitamin B tablets and join me for a weekend in Hell Hole swamp during the summer and let's see what happens. Maybe it works for some people.

And to go along with this line of thought: “natural” doesn’t immediately mean “safe,” and many chemicals are simply man made copies of naturally occurring compounds (ie permethrin).


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BillyBob58
07-28-2018, 11:14
concerning the concentration rates......after diluting Martins 10% strength permethrin to .05% and soaking and air drying my hiking clothes, I placed an ant inside my cap and it took 20 min. for the ant to die. Its a repellant not a contact killer. Mosquitoes being more sensitive won't even land on treated bugnets.

.05% or .5%? The latter is recommended.


As i mentioned elsewhere, some of my friends were using picaridin in the Pharaoh Wilderness (ADKs) and were nearly eaten alive. Even with 40% deet (Repel Max (https://www.amazon.com/Sportsmen-Formula-Insect-Repellent-Lotion/dp/B000PGJ4LA/ref=pd_lpo_vtph_86_lp_img_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=BK3BACKCE72BCDNETBB1)) we still got a few bites, but it was FAR better.

I don't doubt you at all, but boy am I surprised. I hike mostly in bug infested areas of MS, or maybe AL, including swamps. Ever snce I switched from DEET to Permethrin treated clothes and gear often plus Picaridin on exposed skin, it has almost been as though I hike in a bug free zone, or maybe like it is dead of winter. Though admittedly I do wonder if recently they are becoming ( one or both) just slightly less effective. But only because at the beginning of this season I did find a tick on me, under my pants, attached to skin. And if memory serves, I was only using one or the other, not both(but I can't remember which) Probably- I'm guessing here- it was Picaridin on exposed skin only, in clothes that and not been treated since last fall. And I found this amazing: the tick(don't know how long it had gone undiscovered) appeared to have no blood in it(not swollen at all) and appeared to be dead. That's it, that is the only failure as far as bites or even skin contact that I am aware of in many years, and I was not using both.

There was also this almost failure: back about Sept 2010, a buddy and his son from NC and I all went out to ID for a hike into some lakes in the Sawtooth Range. I advised him about the Pic and Perm and he treated all their gear and clothing with Perm and took 20% Picaridin for the skin as of course did I. I was wearing just a thin white layer of Merino wool LJ top as I cooked supper late in the day, and he warned that my back was covered with Mosquitoes. I had not even noticed them on my front end. I asked him if they seemed to be lighting and biting, he said they did not seem to be biting, and maybe were just hovering very close to my back, or making brief contact. He gave a couple of sprays from my Picaridin to my back, and they were gone. I was disappointed that they seemed unbothered by my treated shirt, but I got no bites. But since I had not even see them on the front end, I probably had some Pic already on my hands and face. Maybe it also means I simply failed to get a good enough spraying on the back of this very thin garment, which they could have easily bit through(open weave)? Or did the Perm simply fail to keep them from coming in very close to my back only? I don't know.

But not only did I get no bites on my back, I had no bug net on this trip. Every night before bed I would cover all potentially exposed skin good with Pic, and of course I slept in treated clothing and hammock/PeaPod. Never heard a Mossy whining, and I had not a single bite from this trip. Same with by 2 buds. (but 1 had a netted HH) And we were swimming in the lakes! So I am shocked to hear about your friends! Are the Mossies/ticks different in different parts of the country? We certainly have plenty of them down here, and their were plenty in Idaho, but are they some how dif? Did your friends use 20% Picaridin? Were their clothes also treated with Permethrin?


I'm liking the picaridin lotion so far, but haven't been in any hot zones to give it a major test yet. But combined with permethrin, I felt I was really keeping them away. It works fantastic for me down here in MS.


You all know my thoughts on this issue..... I'd pour 10 gallons of gasoline on myself while smoking a cigarette if the gas kept the BLOOD SUCKING TICKS, BLOOD SUCKING SPIDERS AND FACE EATING RACOONS away lol. Get rid of the headache by cutting off the head is what I say lol, I'll deal with the side effects if I'm fact there are any later. I treat my boots, gaitors and pack with 100% DEET, everything else and skin with Permethrin + Picardin and have never had any problems. I even ~ carefully ~ spray it on my wife and kids and their gear/legs/arms too.... So far we are side effect and disease free! I did find out last week that nymph Lone Star ticks are so fast that they will crawl from boot to upper leg well before the chemicals kick in. The ones that got stuck under my laces ,in the mesh of my boots, on my gaitors did all die after a few mins , and the few that did make it up my leg died before they could latch on completely. I'd say it worked...... and it wasn't 2 or 3 ticks either, no it was more like 200-300. No joke. Tigglet and Jellyfish had the same amounts on them as well.

:scared: Where on earth were you that you got that many ticks? :scared: Even with all that treatment? Have you considered treating your boots, gators and pack with Permethrin rather than DEET? That(Perm) is what I do. So far so good.

Are all of you guys making sure to use 20% Picaridin? I have seen it in much lower concentrations, less effective. They also claim the lotion works a good bit longer, 12 rather than 8 hours.

scrope
07-30-2018, 13:42
...my back was covered with Mosquitoes. I had not even noticed them on my front end. I asked him if they seemed to be lighting and biting, he said they did not seem to be biting, and maybe were just hovering very close to my back, or making brief contact. He gave a couple of sprays from my Picaridin to my back, and they were gone. I was disappointed that they seemed unbothered by my treated shirt, but I got no bites. But since I had not even see them on the front end, I probably had some Pic already on my hands and face. Maybe it also means I simply failed to get a good enough spraying on the back of this very thin garment, which they could have easily bit through(open weave)? Or did the Perm simply fail to keep them from coming in very close to my back only? I don't know.

There is a difference between Permethrin and Picaridin. Permethrin is an insecticide while Picaridin is a repellent. Although Permethrin may also act as a repellent for some insects, that's not its primary job.

BillyBob58
07-31-2018, 22:05
There is a difference between Permethrin and Picaridin. Permethrin is an insecticide while Picaridin is a repellent. Although Permethrin may also act as a repellent for some insects, that's not its primary job.

Yes, I know, and I believe Perm does also act as a repellent, based on my experience that I rarely even see insects anywhere near my treated clothes, or even near me when I am wearing treated clothes. Of course, I often(but not always) also have exposed skin treated with Picaridin, so it's possible that is acting as a strong enough repellent so that I don't even see or hear insects close to me.

This case of the mosquitoes swarming my back is the only exception to that "don't even see them" since I started using this combo years ago. Of course, there was no Picaridin repellent on my back, only the Perm treated shirt. Maybe the most likely explanation is that I failed to spray that back side of that shirt adequately with Permethrin before leaving home, hence they felt brave enough to come in mighty close. That is the only time on that trip or any other that I have had any close encounters with the Mossies. Still, no bites. Not a one on that multiday trip, and I did not even sleep under a bug net.