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MikekiM
03-02-2019, 17:58
I currently have a 20F HG Incubator/Burrow and 40F Phincubator/Burrow. Looking at a quilt set for summer months and I think I would like to go LLG. I am a card carrying gram weenie and this set is truly meant for UL.. fast, light and warm weather.

Looking for feedback on the following, keeping in mind the rest of my kit and my goal to limit weight and volume. I want a 3/4 UQ.

50F Operator series - The Ghost Pepper & Habanero are 8.4 & 10.2 ounces respectively, in Argon 67. A bit over a pound for the pair. 7D fabric could reduce the Habanero by half an ounce. The Habanero uses baffled construction and both quilts use 900 fill.

60F Recon series - The weight of these is really attractive.. Ghost Pepper is sub 7 oz and the Habanero is 5.7 oz.. less if I choose the 7D. The Habanero is sewn through, but for what it is, I don't find issue. Plus I used a 3/4 CDT for warm weather a few years ago and had no problem with it. Like the Operator series they use 900 fill power. No secondary suspension on the Habanero; that could be a concern.

The 60F might be a better match to my 40's if I need to mix them up while the 50F might be too close to the 40's..

I would love some feedback from any of you who have pondered the same... And, from those of you who have the Recon Series. Thoughts?? I can find nothing on youtube for the Recon series...

chapinb
03-02-2019, 21:10
In almost the exact same predicament myself with regard to the uq. In a few weeks I'll be getting the 50 operator uq. Here's my thought. The recon, rated at 60 would only get use for a few nights a year. It would have to be dry, 65 degrees overnight as a low and low (slightly cold sleeper) and little wind -esp with the sewn thru. As I usually camp near water to boot.
The 50 operator would get used significantly more due to the bigger temp range for a minimum of grams more. More use of the operator, means less use of my 40 degree uq. Saves slightly less weight oversll vs the recon but saves that weight much more frequently.

As far as the recon tq, I just cant wrap my head around a 3/4 tq, so deff a no-go on that. But I already have a 10oz 50 degree tq too...

Tony c
03-02-2019, 21:23
Just want to chime in and say I got a cedar ridge 50 top quilt. Also a phoenix 40 prem.

MikekiM
03-02-2019, 23:06
Thinking in terms of my kit..

I have a dedicated set of gear for when I am going fast and lite... Summer trips of one or two nights. A UL cookkit, frameless pack, asym tarp... That would be when I would want to use these quilts.

From a temperature perspective, either the 50 or 60 could work.

I'm not considering a 3/4 topquilt... Just the short under quilt.


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TrailSlug
03-02-2019, 23:55
I have the 60 degree recon set and I really like them for the summer months. They pack down to nearly nothing and have taken them down to around 55 before getting chilled and yes I'm a cold sleeper.

chapinb
03-03-2019, 06:18
With what extra layers? If its summer, I'm only in shorts, regular socks, tshirt and a feather weight 6oz hoodie.
For the hammock gear uq, for example, my 40 degree uq only works to about 47 degrees with the above clothing. So if the 60 recon actually work to 55, I may be interested again. If I need a down puffy, that defeats the purpose of that extra weight savings.

Talking just uq again here. The recon tq wouldnt worknfor me since I'm not carrying a coat.

MikekiM
03-03-2019, 08:05
I have the 60 degree recon set and I really like them for the summer months. They pack down to nearly nothing and have taken them down to around 55 before getting chilled and yes I'm a cold sleeper.


Interesting... Thank you. Are there cinch cords head and foot? And, only a primary suspension correct?

Let me add a little bit more dimension to my original post. I tend to sleep warm. I do a lot of backpacking in the mid-summer. 40F quilts are often way to much warmth for mid-summer nights and I have been contemplating making a silk top quilt for a few seasons, and using that in summer venting the Phincubator. I've used a DIY CDT TQ & 3/4 UQ for two summer seasons and gave it to someone who needed a set to get started. In the heat of summer, I often tossed that TQ off and slept with nothing. I made another CDT TQ but given the fabric on the CDT's isn't water resistant, packs down large and is quite heavy, it isn't ideal for my uses on trail. The CDT UQ is sewn through construction and I had no issue with that into the mid-50's in shorts and short sleeved shirt.

This year I made myself a HalfWit hammock, I am happy with but going with no top coverage on my legs isn't going to work when bugs are up and I don't trust that skeeters won't be able to bite through the silk TQ.

Additionally, both of my Burrow TQ's are standard length, 74" and even at 5'11" pull way up over my head.. I like to sleep with my legs bent. A short Burrow, at 69" might work, but for cold weather I don't want to risk it. For warm weather I would want something shorter than the standard Burrow.. A 65" or 70" Recon might be just the ticket.
As far as temps.. my 20F HG quilt set have gotten me to an overnight low of 16F without issue, wearing only base layer, socks and a balaclava.

MikekiM
03-03-2019, 09:45
Just tied off my CDT TQ at 70" and it's perfect... That question is now answered. Recon 60F 70" TQ.

Now it comes down to the UQ.

The 3/4 50F Operator might not be a bad idea. Paired with a 60F Recon TQ it would add more flexibility with about a 2.5oz weight penalty. That considered, the 50F / 60F quilt set is still nearly half the weight of my 40F set and I'd have to think less than half the volume.

Still have the option to do the 7D fabric to save weight...

Anyone have feedback on 7D ? I have no experience with this fabric.

georgecarr
03-03-2019, 11:41
Anyone have feedback on 7D ? I have no experience with this fabric.

I would expect it to be just as durable as Argon 67. Side by side there's not really a discernible difference.

MikekiM
03-03-2019, 18:42
I would expect it to be just as durable as Argon 67. Side by side there's not really a discernible difference.

Thanks George.. any flaws in my logic that you can see?


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georgecarr
03-03-2019, 19:18
FWIW the thought behind the Recon Series is summer season where cold isn't as critical. I've received a number of reports of the Recon quilts going down to 50-55. I have also received and confirmed from personal experience the Operator quilts being warm into the 30's. I would make my choice based on the range of temperature you wish to cover and how warm or cold of a sleeper you are.

I understand the SUL mentality as I used to backpack sub 5# myself, but have since decided a good nights sleep is worth a few extra ounces if needed.

m00ch
03-04-2019, 12:50
Just tied off my CDT TQ at 70" and it's perfect... That question is now answered. Recon 60F 70" TQ.

Now it comes down to the UQ.

The 3/4 50F Operator might not be a bad idea. Paired with a 60F Recon TQ it would add more flexibility with about a 2.5oz weight penalty. That considered, the 50F / 60F quilt set is still nearly half the weight of my 40F set and I'd have to think less than half the volume.

Still have the option to do the 7D fabric to save weight...

Anyone have feedback on 7D ? I have no experience with this fabric.

Does anyone know the volume savings when packed using the 7D compared to the standard Argon 67 on the Operator 50 top quilt. I know that both of them pack small but does anyone have a real comparison between the 2?

georgecarr
03-04-2019, 17:15
Does anyone know the volume savings when packed using the 7D compared to the standard Argon 67 on the Operator 50 top quilt. I know that both of them pack small but does anyone have a real comparison between the 2?

No measurable difference that I see.

m00ch
03-05-2019, 07:10
Thanks for the response George.


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Just Bill
03-05-2019, 10:35
My only concern/experience with going with SUL down (low loft) is humidity creep issues.
I prefer synthetic for summer fast and light for that reason.

I only mention it because I know Micheal (OP) is in the northeast.
If out west... then I think that they can be more practical. For short weekends... probably doable too.
Having done a few trips on the AT in Springer to hot springs and the Shennies +50 miles either end with some light down I found that I prefer the synthetic.

It's a tough call either way... I don't mean to poo-poo George's quilts as his work is excellent.
Just voicing the legitimate concern I would have if debating the 60* set for a week in humid areas. I didn't crunch the numbers on this particular set... and George's stuff is generally generously filled. But really once you've taken the 'hit' for the shell, baffles, and suspension the extra 1/4" of loft probably isn't much. With such low loft it only takes a little clumping to develop some cold spots... so I'd probably go with the 50* setup as cheap insurance, at least on the UQ at minimum.

I wouldn't hesitate to use the 7D shell either. Besides the weight, pack size is excellent.
The M10 SUL hammocks I make pack to nothing- https://1drv.ms/u/s!Apygyt54yYPwg7U4qV_Dn1Jvs1f7dw
That's a 4'x9'6" double layer in that picture... smaller than a beer can. So since volume is important I'd go that route.

I've use that shell material for years in my FKT top quilts and it holds up to that abuse just fine.
Not sure what 7d George is using exactly but the lack of ripstop grid in those very light fabrics is a plus in my opinion. The only issue with M10 (and similar) is that the DWR can make the top quilt feel a bit clammy for the first 30 nights of use. After that it's great feeling and very silky. Folks have made wind gear (jackets, shells, mitts, etc) from M50 (thru-hiker.com) fabric for over a decade with no issues.

Just Bill
03-05-2019, 11:01
I just looked-
With 900 fill and your area... I'd go with the 50* UQ for the few ounce ding.
If you wanted to push... the 60* top quilt seems reasonable.

I've been testing a 950 Enlightened Equipment Enigma top quilt for the past several months (I prefer not to go beyond 850)... Even at 20* it's a bit temperamental.
I was curious if the treated down helped with this but my personal opinion is that while a bit more stable than non-treated it's still an issue for humid areas.
EE doesn't fill as generously as George in my limited experience with his stuff (have a 20* UQ from LLG)... but in the EE I got a 'salmon' 7d shell so I can physically see the down clusters.

I'm assuming we're mainly talking AT type terrain and trips...
You could always be a bit selective with your site selection, but there are enough katabatic zones that even in summer if you got hit with a little humidity creep you could find the 60* UQ struggling.
The 2.5 ounces or so to bump to 50* is much lighter than carrying any spare clothes or other backup. My preference has always been to eliminate all the clothes you won't wear rather than keep them in to stretch the sleep gear. Sleep insulation is always the biggest bang for your gram.

If you have a wind shell or similar one size up you can always stuff you top quilt or UQ into that (Mike Clelland style) to make a camp puffy... so skimp on the clothes, bring a good hat, and go a hair conservative on the UQ.

My opinion only...but that's the system I like and used on my Long Trail FKT attempt and many fast and light trips.
Skirt, undies, Cap 2 1/4 zip shirt, Cap 4 beanie, insulated hat, Patagonia Houdini and socks. No other clothes with a 45* insulation set for sleep.

MikekiM
03-06-2019, 06:47
Bill thanks for sharing...

Agree with the UQ.. that decision is done.

Still waffling on which TQ.

cmoulder
03-06-2019, 07:24
Great advice from top experts in the industry — What a country! :cool:

Either way, it's also nice to have synthetic TQ/UQ in the quiver just in case. I've done a few trips where synthetic has made the difference between merely annoying and a miserable bail-out.

cmc4free
05-30-2019, 14:25
Bill thanks for sharing...

Agree with the UQ.. that decision is done.

Still waffling on which TQ.

Mike,

I assume you're still waiting to receive the Operator Habanero, given that LLG just reopened not long ago?

Please share your thoughts when you receive it. I just ordered one, myself.

Dlrocm
06-02-2019, 21:51
I was looking hard at the 50 and 60 degree top quilts the other day. in south Louisiana, I could make use of the short 60 degree topquilt in many nights from may through September. most nights I go to bed withquilts to the sides only to slip in into them at around 3 am when temps get to the mid to low 70s.
I can't see any reason to try out the 60 or 50 degree underquilt as my 40 degree underquilt is just 10 oz; however I do see the draw for those who count grams. I tend to err on the side of caution for underquilts and go with a mismatched setup where the UQ is 10 degrees warmer than TQ.

cmc4free
06-07-2019, 13:27
Today I ordered an Operator 50 Ghost Pepper. 75" long x 50" wide. I chose the black 7D for inner and outer. My understanding is that it is the M7 fabric from RipstopbytheRoll, not the MTN 7D. It isn't clearly stated on the Operator Series product pages, but I'm going by this post from last year.

https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php/149650-New-Fabric-Options-for-Operator-and-Recon-Series-Quilts?highlight=fabric

MTN 7D is 0.74osy compared to 0.67osy for the Argon 67 material that is standard on the Operators. So it wouldn't make sense to pay the $20 premium per shell to add weight. M7 is 0.56osy.

I actually chose the 7D for the topquilt not for the concern of saving an ounce, but because I really like the hand of the M7 material compared to Argon 67. I think it will be an incredibly comfortable material for a summer topquilt where there is a lot of skin contact with the fabric. For the Operator Habanero, I went with the Argon 67, since there's no skin contact with the UQ.

Dlrocm
06-09-2019, 10:38
the operator 50 degree is sewn through construction?

georgecarr
06-09-2019, 10:45
The operator uq has baffles, the tq is sewn through.