View Full Version : Frozen feet at 45 degrees (again)
JohnSawyer
04-04-2010, 00:25
Ok, this is getting most annoying.
I setup last night in the back yard in my DIY 9' gathered end hammock.
Lost River UQ, 20 degree synth. bag as a top quilt, zipper pinned above my knees. Under my feet, in the bag was a 3' long piece of reflectix.
This hammock has an overcover made from 1.1 untreated ripstop, and I was under my 8x10 tarp with the doors closed...
Clothing: Thermal underwear, t-shirt, Fleece sweats, Thick wool/poly socks w/ fleece slippers.
I fiddled with the UQ, thinking I had it pulled too tight (per an earlier conversation with PG... Went to bed with a cup of hot cocoa in my stomach, and I was plenty warm before I got in.
I slept fine, and didn't have the problem with pressure on my calves like I did in the past (I loosened my ridgeline a bit.) but I woke up at around 6AM with my feet freezing. It was only 45 degrees last night. If I can't resolve this, I'll be stuck to Summer camping!
Anybody else have cold feet issues?
Kallorne
04-04-2010, 00:42
i get cold feet toward morning too... this i counter with a hot water bottle. i'd definitely be interested in a more fuel efficent method though
Hawk-eye
04-04-2010, 01:17
The only time I've gotten cold feet ... I was too lazy to change out of my hiking socks into dry ones. I've not had that problem. Are your feet ending up higher than your head? Any kind positioning that might constrict the blood flow to your feet?
noontime
04-04-2010, 02:32
not a great solution but you could try those 'hot feet/hot hands' warming packs. I use them when I ride my motorcycle in the winter they work quite well....ha
HappyCamper
04-04-2010, 05:39
That is weird. Since it's backyard testing I'd go the opposite direction. Use tarp and close doors. (No top cover.) Use the bottom quilt, top quilt, and ccf pad under feet. Wear a pair of synthetic wicking socks under a medium weight wool sock. (No slippers.) Maybe your feet are sweating and then getting cold??????????
gargoyle
04-04-2010, 06:57
what they said... sweaty feet, hot water bottle, clean socks, and heat packs.
Maybe try a bigger hammock, your fairly tall, ?, so a ten foot hammock at 50-60 wide will give you flip-flopin' room. This might be a solution. Seems in my shorter hammocks I stick to one position all night, but in the bigger ones i can toss and turn in extreme comfort.
down booties are a must. if your feet get cold then your cold, period!
Guess thats why some people suggest a full UQ. less fiddle factor with all the pad, hot packs, etc not to deal with. I have the New River and its nice, however, being a warm sleeper, I would like to try the 2/3 or 3/4 uqs to see how I do.
HappyCamper
04-04-2010, 09:17
Did you have a hat on? JRB's always tell me if your feet are cold put on a hat. :)
hangnout
04-04-2010, 09:45
I suggest getting rid of the reflectix and going with a good ccf pad that is long enough to curl up around your feet where they touch the hammock. I use a cut down ridgerest pad. The shoulders, butt, & feet are pressure points in a hammock. The shoulders & butt are covered by your 2/3 UQ. The feet are unprotected and need good bottom and side insulation.
I will probably catch some flak for the next suggestion but in 40's up I would start off without any socks etc. This will allow you to test quickly. If your torso is warm and feet are cool early in the night you don't have enough insulation under your feet. Bottom line is fix the insulation under your feet and along the area where the side of your your right foot (most people) touches the hammock before trying to put more on your feet to compensate.
I slept out last night at 40* without any socks and was more than warm. I know everyone is different but try this before giving up on colder weather. As it gets colder than 40* make sure the insulation that is on your feet is loose fitting. I like the down style booties, JRB sleeves, etc. Adding the items on your feet still does not compensate for insulation under your feet so double up your pad when it hits the 20's and lower
My thoughts are that you are over insulated.........
Try less on your feet .... and a different foot pad and go from there.
You'll find the magic formula eventually. At least you get to try this stuff out in a hammock!
Shug
JohnSawyer
04-04-2010, 12:18
Wow... lots of suggestions...
Yes, I wore a wool beanie... I definitely wasn't overly warm, (I sleep cold anyway... Most nights I have a 5'-10" space heater to snuggle up to, she's quite hot. :boggle:
I don't think I was over insulated, and my socks were dry, but I'll give it a go. I wasn't sweaty at all as I was falling asleep. (I really get cold feet bad lately... hmm... poor circulation is a sign of diabetes... probably time for a checkup since I haven't seen my doc in a few years anyway...) I fiddled with the hang on the UQ, it's still not as warm as I would have expected, considering some sleep into the 30's with it, but maybe I'm being optimistic...
-I've been thinking that my 9' hammock is a bit short, yes I'm 5'11". 11' is my next hammock project. Darn, I missed Ed Speer's winter sale...
-I'll pull out the ccf pad and give it a go. I've avoided pads since my first attempt as I found it uncomfortable. I'll figure a way to clip it to the hammock. (Btw, I sleep feet left...)
--r
-Chemical warmers: not a bad idea. I found the WW ones are cheap, but aren't always well sealed...
-Hot water bottle: at 45 degrees? really? I think I shouldn't need one.
-Harpo63: re: Underquilt: I'm beginning to wonder if I should have bought a full-length quilt. My Lost river has seen the backyard a number of times, and been put in the stuff sack only once. (I really wish I had more camping time) Care to trade? :)
-I have some insultex on the way. I was thinking of making a quilt extender for my feet. Or, since climashield is cheap, maybe making a UQ. Thoughts?
sir_n0thing
04-04-2010, 12:21
Definitely try changing the type of pad under your feet, and give a shot to LESS sock/slipper type coverage. Like Shug says, eventually you'll hit upon the magic combo that works for you!
Those hand/foot warmer things are great, but I find unless the weather is REALLY cold, they just overheat my feet and cause allot of sweating. That said, they may work for you... give 'em a shot and see.
Best of luck in your quest!
Peter_pan
04-04-2010, 12:47
Try a flatter laying hammock... When your feet are up hill there is less circulation...
That said,clean socks, down booties or sleeves worn on the feet are a major help also...
Alternatively, if you are sliding to the footend you are most likey smashing the available TQ foot loft flat....
First and third points are a real double edge sword...hang foot end to high= reduced blood flow....hang foot end too low, slide to the end and smash insulation to ineffectiveness...get it right = be warm and happy...
Pan
John
If I understand right you used an underquilt as a top cover and some thin insulation under your feet and socks.
1) Increase the insulation under your feet with a foam pad.
2) If the blood getting to your legs isn't warm (cold legs), your feet can't get warm.
3) If the hammock compresses the insulation around your feet, they won't get warm.
4) too thick of socks may keep your feet from keeping each other warm.
5) I mostly never wear socks in a sleeping bag and I never get cold feet.
An observation. I sleep in sleeping bags, and they have a "footsack" designed for toes to stick up with out pushing into the insulation. Just maybe a quilt doesn't surround your feet with insulation the way a sleeping bag does. Have you tried using a sleeping bag over you as a quilt with your feet in a proper foot sack?
Jim S
ikemouser
04-04-2010, 13:32
Are your socks too tight?
millergear
04-04-2010, 13:37
Make sure the foot box totally closes at the end when you snug up the draw cords. Every movement you make during the night will act as a bellows sucking cold air in, pushing cold air out thru any opening at the foot box end. Even a very small opening will cause chilled feet. Use some spare clothing (I fold a spare sock) and stuff it in the opening before pulling the cords tight to seal it.
-Harpo63: re: Underquilt: I'm beginning to wonder if I should have bought a full-length quilt. My Lost river has seen the backyard a number of times, and been put in the stuff sack only once. (I really wish I had more camping time) Care to trade? :)
Sorry, I like it for the colder temps. I have the IX added to that quilt. But would like to add a shorter one without IX to our collection since my wife seemed to get hooked and I need to buy more....
You may want to try moving the Reflectix out of the sleeping bag. It is my understanding that you need a little bit of "air space" between you and the reflective barrier for it to work properly. If it is in direct contact with your skin, there is no air space and it will actually conduct heat AWAY from your body. I use the reflective pad between the layer of my HH Deep Jungle and then get in my sleeping bag. With a 0 degree bag, this has kept me warm down to 15 degrees with nothing else.
OrionFyre
04-04-2010, 19:27
Not that it helps in the immediate sense (or any sense what-so-ever)... and is purely anecdotal....
I used to get cold feet all the time. It could be 90 degrees outside and i'd still wake up with my feet cold.
Once I started walking and running barefoot and my feet got stronger, no more cold feet! In fact when winter was ending here even when there was still slush on the ground I was going out for 1 mile runs in the afternoon tromping through the slush and snow barefoot with only a slight twinge of "cold!" got a few wierd looks and people gave me a wide berth LMAO.
And even if you do lots of walking and hiking your feet can be even weaker than someone who barely does any exercise because of all the arch and ankle support your hiking gear has....
oldgringo
04-04-2010, 21:00
Are your socks too tight?
Good point.
Any constriction is too much, especially if your feet run cold, anyway.
JohnSawyer
04-05-2010, 00:48
John
If I understand right you used an underquilt as a top cover and some thin insulation under your feet and socks.
1) Increase the insulation under your feet with a foam pad.
2) If the blood getting to your legs isn't warm (cold legs), your feet can't get warm.
3) If the hammock compresses the insulation around your feet, they won't get warm.
4) too thick of socks may keep your feet from keeping each other warm.
5) I mostly never wear socks in a sleeping bag and I never get cold feet.
An observation. I sleep in sleeping bags, and they have a "footsack" designed for toes to stick up with out pushing into the insulation. Just maybe a quilt doesn't surround your feet with insulation the way a sleeping bag does. Have you tried using a sleeping bag over you as a quilt with your feet in a proper foot sack?
Jim S
I am using my sleeping bag as a top quilt. To keep my feet and legs warm, I pinned the zipper in place just above my knees. It's possible I was pushing my feet against the bottom and compressing it.. It's hard to say.
Pan: My feet were slightly elevated... just enough to keep me from sliding down to the foot end... You're right: I probably need a longer hammock for a flatter lay...
I'll keep experimenting... Thanks all for the suggestions!
ikemouser
04-05-2010, 05:08
Not that it helps in the immediate sense (or any sense what-so-ever)... and is purely anecdotal....
I used to get cold feet all the time. It could be 90 degrees outside and i'd still wake up with my feet cold.
Once I started walking and running barefoot and my feet got stronger, no more cold feet! In fact when winter was ending here even when there was still slush on the ground I was going out for 1 mile runs in the afternoon tromping through the slush and snow barefoot with only a slight twinge of "cold!" got a few wierd looks and people gave me a wide berth LMAO.
And even if you do lots of walking and hiking your feet can be even weaker than someone who barely does any exercise because of all the arch and ankle support your hiking gear has....
Which is why i like inov-8, less support.
OrionFyre
04-05-2010, 06:19
Which is why i like inov-8, less support.
less is the key word.
I am quite the ardent barefoot proponent. Speaking from my personal experience of course... Once you get a feel for walking and running barefoot, then ANY amount of cushioning or support or constriction really starts to get annoying. I even gave away an expensive pair of hiking boots because the arch support actually inflamed a case of plantar troubles to the point I couldn't walk for a day, and I only wore them for an hour!!
I do believe that anyone with "cold foot syndrome" should consider barefoot and minimalist footwear to help strengthen and stress the muscles in the feet. When these muscles and tissues are being subjected to the rigors of supporting your body all by themselves like they are designed to it will encourage increased blood flow which in turn means warmer feet. I used to get complaints from those sharing my bed about my freezing feet. Now even on the coldest nights they're toasty warm. Not only will it help with circulation, stronger feet (the tissues, muscle and bone) will last you much longer on the trail with fewer complaints.
ikemouser
04-05-2010, 11:49
less is the key word.
I am quite the ardent barefoot proponent. Speaking from my personal experience of course... Once you get a feel for walking and running barefoot, then ANY amount of cushioning or support or constriction really starts to get annoying. I even gave away an expensive pair of hiking boots because the arch support actually inflamed a case of plantar troubles to the point I couldn't walk for a day, and I only wore them for an hour!!
I do believe that anyone with "cold foot syndrome" should consider barefoot and minimalist footwear to help strengthen and stress the muscles in the feet. When these muscles and tissues are being subjected to the rigors of supporting your body all by themselves like they are designed to it will encourage increased blood flow which in turn means warmer feet. I used to get complaints from those sharing my bed about my freezing feet. Now even on the coldest nights they're toasty warm. Not only will it help with circulation, stronger feet (the tissues, muscle and bone) will last you much longer on the trail with fewer complaints.
Barefoot is cool, but how can you go barefoot on jagged terrain, scattered sharp rocks, like in a creek bed? You would get all kinds of abrasion, not to mention poison ivy/oak/sumac, snake bites, etc.
Kallorne
04-05-2010, 13:01
vibram five fingers
http://www.rei.com/search?query=vibram&button.x=0&button.y=0
JohnSawyer
04-06-2010, 23:46
Starting with Pan's advice for a longer hammock for a flatter lay...
I pulled out 11'4" of fabric, hemmed it all around, cinched up the ends WBBB style, and hung it. (somehow this hammock took me 1/3rd the time of the first... I must be getting used to my thread injector -- Thanks to Ramblin Rev for the video lessons!)
It barely fits my folding hammock stand :rolleyes: and my ridgeline is 30" above me, where my first was a bit claustrophobic with an overcover. :)
And along with the myriad of comments on me being too warm, sweaty, and too cold, I hung in the new hammock with my lost river UQ, my sleeping bag as a top quilt (with the zipper pinned up to enclose my legs.) wearing nothing more than a t-shirt and shorts.
It took some fiddling to get my UQ set right, but I was immediately comfortable, and reasonably warm. My feet felt cold, but when I reached down, I found they really weren't... I just perceived they were...
I'll try again this weekend, but an hour and a half nap in the new hammock was a big improvement.
The only problem I had is my feet still had a tendancy to slip over the edge of the hammock, which is why I sewed a triangle on the end of #1... I might just have to do this to #2...
Darn, someday I might be like Tinker (Jerry..) Isn't he up to 6 DIY hammocks? I love his latest creation.
Ugh... I might just give up and buy that WBBB I've always wanted...
More to come..
Thanks everybody!
HappyCamper
04-07-2010, 04:45
How wide is your new hammock? Great that you keep experimenting. You'll get there!
OrionFyre
04-07-2010, 09:12
Barefoot is cool, but how can you go barefoot on jagged terrain, scattered sharp rocks, like in a creek bed? You would get all kinds of abrasion, not to mention poison ivy/oak/sumac, snake bites, etc.
I know it sounds crazy (or I do at least) But your feet can put up with a LOT of abuse when they're strong. I'm not svelt buy any stretch of the imagination but I'm able to run right over crushed limestone paths without a complaint. sharp and pointy rocks are fun to walk across.
The skin on the bottom of your foot is said to be 6 times more puncture resistant than any other flesh on your body. And us dedicated barefooters probably even more :p Plus walking on sharp stuff isn't all that challenging anyways. Just put your foot down and lift straight up.
And as Kallorne posted, Vibram Five Fingers are absolutely amazing if you're worried about punctures or cuts. For poison ivy... just... walk around it like you would dog poo :)
vitamaltz
04-07-2010, 10:03
For the cold foot problem, 45 degrees isn't too warm to give plastic bags under your socks a try. I know some people that disagree, but I find that cold feet at almost any temperature can be mitigated by a vapor barrier. It's free to try.
I'm on the barefoot bandwagon now too. I haven't had much cold weather camping experience since I started running barefoot; now I'm curious to try it. There are a million other reasons why it's awesome though.
JohnSawyer
04-07-2010, 16:45
Unless I'm working on something, when I'm at home I'm barefoot most of the time. Despite my being a 2nd generation San Diego native, I haven't forgotten my rural North Carolina roots... (Dad had 2 pairs of shoes as a kid: one for Sunday School, the other for school...)
I have RV parking at my house that's 1/2" granite, and quite pointy. I walk thorough it all the time with little discomfort.
RE: Vapor barrier: My sleeping bag should be plenty warm, but I'll give that a go if this weekend's hang doesn't work out.
Thanks!
WrongTurn
04-08-2010, 11:45
Try heating up arterial points.
Same idea basis as running cold water over the wrists or wrapping a cool towel around the neck when it is hot.
The water bottle between the legs warms up the blood so your extremities stay warmer. It may not be that your feet are actually under insulated, but that your body is retaining the warm blood and heat to your core because you are losing heat somewhere else.
JohnSawyer
04-09-2010, 23:57
Darn kids! ;)
I was planning on spending the night with much less insulation and a CCF pad under my legs... My Daughter, seeing me make the NEW hammock, asked if she could have the old one. I could not deny her a hammock to call her own, so it's now hers...
Then SHE asked if she could spend the night outside... :) Of COURSE I said yes... Then it happened: my 9 year old son asked if HE could spend the night outside. :D
The only downside: I only have the 1 UQ. SO, I pulled out one of my past (failed) experimental UQs, which was only a shell (I pulled out the insulation) Took a fleece blanket and wrapped it (both sides) with Insultex, Pinned the sandwich to the inside of the shell and hung it under the Daughter's hammock. Stuffed her in it, with my DIY TQ (Fleece/Insulbrite/Poly batting/1.1 nylon ripstop shell), and adjusted it up to her comfort, added the top cover and tucked her in...
My SON is in MY hammock, as snug as a bug in a rug... This kid is the human space-heater, wearing little more than a pair of shorts, he's crawling out of the sleeping bag since he's too hot. :rolleyes: It's about 45 degrees right now... He has no hammock sock, just my Lost River UQ, Sleeping bag and a tarp.
I guess my turn will be tomorrow night... Either that, or I'm making ANOTHER hammock and hammock stand for me! -- I am certainly not complaining...
-- A proud father
JohnSawyer
04-10-2010, 10:49
So the boy bailed out at 11pm last night and went to his own bed.
I crawled in wearing nothing but a t-shirt and shorts. My mummy bag has a fleece footbox, and it was used as a top quilt.
The only issue I had was keeping the pad under my legs. (I ejected it sometime in the night.)
Temps got below 50. (misread my thermometer last night... gotta wear my glasses) I was plenty warm, despite the fact that I was backwards in the hammock, and slid down to the middle with my feet elevated. :blush:
This morning my feet/legs had no bottom insulation, and were cool, but not cold. I managed to rub my feet together, pull one up to warm on my leg and I was fine.
Since I had no overcover, the only real issue I had was breathing cold air left me with a slight sore throat...
Thanks to everybody who pitched in on ideas for my issues! You guys rock!