Down color

[campnfish]

I have had this ridge reaper for a few years, and maybe I never paid attention but is the dark spots inside this quilt just the color of the down insulation, or is this something else? Yellow is the outside color, black on inside. I thought perhaps it's just the black material showing through in spots, but doesn't appear to be the case https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220913/978cc2ca92487f2416314749e8a48993.jpg

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[SilvrSurfr]

Sure looks like mold to me.

[campnfish]

Yeah not sure, when I hold up to the light looks like small dark feathers. If it was mold wouldn't it be growing on the fabric as well? This is just the insulation that is spotty.

[Rolloff]

I'm with SS. Down can certainly grow mold. Perhaps a good wash with some proper detergent like Nikiwax can mitigate the problem somewhat.

[campnfish]

Perhaps George can weigh in, I looked at the original listing when I purchased this, and it says duck down, maybe this dark and light color variation is normal.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220913/c0a6fedcd0a2576175c9f05929df3d46.jpg

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[SilvrSurfr]

That's mold. Perhaps you stored it without airing it out first.

I have a synthetic 0* bag (Polyfill II) that looks exactly like that. I don't know - I probably stored it wet. Back then I used to store my sleeping bags in a stuff sack (which I would never do now).

One thing I believe is that, after a trip, you need to air your quilts out in an air-conditioned environment. Within 24 hours, your quilts will be good as new. Air-conditioning just sucks the moisture right out of quilts.

[psyculman]

That's mold. Perhaps you stored it without airing it out first.

I have a synthetic 0* bag (Polyfill II) that looks exactly like that. I don't know - I probably stored it wet. Back then I used to store my sleeping bags in a stuff sack (which I would never do now).

One thing I believe is that, after a trip, you need to air your quilts out in an air-conditioned environment. Within 24 hours, your quilts will be good as new. Air-conditioning just sucks the moisture right out of quilts.

Thanks, good to know.

[georgecarr]

It's hard to say by the picture. Duck down (and some goose down) can have light and dark feathers, and even have a gray tone to it. The higher fill power down is generally more white with less or no dark nodules.

Could it be mold? I cant say one way or the other, but I would suspect if it were it might have an off smell. My first guess without having it in hand is that it's just dark feathers.

The pic I attached is obviously 850 fill gray duck down from downtek. You can see the mottling from the feathers (not mold).

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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220913/e557adc98d165f429f7f03e5a48baf7a.jpg

[cmoulder]

It's hard to say by the picture. Duck down (and some goose down) can have light and dark feathers, and even have a gray tone to it. The higher fill power down is generally more white with less or no dark nodules.

Could it be mold? I cant say one way or the other, but I would suspect if it were it might have an off smell. My first guess without having it in hand is that it's just dark feathers.

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This was my first impression. I have some duck down pieces and with lighter/thinner shells this is what it looks like. Another giveaway is the even distribution, which to me suggests it is simply darker colored down bits.

Also concur, the best test is the SMELL test, and I would also check to see if the discoloration is in the feathers only or also on the shell material.

[gargoyle]

If it doesn’t smell like mold don’t sweat it.
Duck down does have a few darker feathers . The light yellows, whites are extremely translucent, and any down almost always shows thru them. Maybe 900 fill down is more all white feather/fluff.??
I’ve seen all white quilts before and they always have a see-thru look.

Move the down around, to see what happens with the spots. If it’s mold, some should stick to the fabric.

[cmoulder]

For reference, here is a pic of a quilt from another vendor that illustrates this down see-thru effect. Most assuredly this is not mold...

189315

[Rolloff]

Indeed. Duck down does change the equation somewhat.

The more I look at that mottling though, the more cringeworthy it gets. If it doesn't stink and still keeps you warm at the rated temps, then hike on.

[TominMN]

Indeed. Duck down does change the equation somewhat.

The more I look at that mottling though, the more cringeworthy it gets. If it doesn't stink and still keeps you warm at the rated temps, then hike on.

I think the "Smell Test" is definitely called for here. If it smells like a duck... :rolleyes:

Maybe more importantly: Is this a change from how it looked new or is it something you just never noticed before?

[campnfish]

There is no smell and i let my quilts sit on my couch after each trip for about a week which is AC controlled. There is no discoloration on the outer fabric, there is no funky smells, the dark color is the insulation, here are some more close up photos and i think shown it better to be the duck down.

[cmoulder]

Here's a pic of a EE Enigma 950FP that I got in January. 10D shell.

I don't know much about the variables in the down separation process. However it's clear that some (or many) dark clusters make it through the winnowing stages and 'make the grade'...

189321

[TominMN]

...

I don't know much about the variables in the down separation process. However it's clear that some (or many) dark clusters make it through the winnowing stages and 'make the grade'...



Pretty common for duck down to be grey-ish in my experience. Sometimes it's just the "acceptable" percentage of non-down feathers in the mix.

[campnfish]

I think the "Smell Test" is definitely called for here. If it smells like a duck... :rolleyes:

Maybe more importantly: Is this a change from how it looked new or is it something you just never noticed before?

I purchased it from a member here, 2019 original photos shown below, i think maybe it was the lighting and i noticed so much more last night as i was getting it out for a trip, possibly i just never noticed in the past.

[Countrybois]

.. from Alliedhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220913/24119cdcdd40da86fbdbf2f185c124f2.jpg

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[cmoulder]

EE 950fp down (https://support.enlightenedequipment.com/hc/en-us/articles/225766407) is "grey goose down" and has some — and it appears a lot! — of darker plumules in it.

Per Countrybois's post, it's a good thing that they don't bleach it these days, and that as a result even the highest FP has dark bits.

And now, everybody is moving away from DWR treated down as well. WM and FF must be feeling a bit smug right about now! :laugh:

[Kmazuro]

EE 950fp down (https://support.enlightenedequipment.com/hc/en-us/articles/225766407) is "grey goose down" and has some — and it appears a lot! — of darker plumules in it.

Per Countrybois's post, it's a good thing that they don't bleach it these days, and that as a result even the highest FP has dark bits.

And now, everybody is moving away from DWR treated down as well. WM and FF must be feeling a bit smug right about now! :laugh:
I just wanted to caution about that last statement…(I don’t want people to think they are getting an inferior product if their quilt manufacturer uses treated down). A lot of manufacturers use treated down, some don’t. I don’t see any kind of mass exodus away from treated down. It’s been debated for years. It seems for all the info you find deeming it unnecessary or even harmful you’ll find twice as much out their touting the benefits…. MY OPINION.
kris

[Countrybois]

I just wanted to caution about that last statement…(I don’t want people to think they are getting an inferior product if their quilt manufacturer uses treated down). A lot of manufacturers use treated down, some don’t. I don’t see any kind of mass exodus away from treated down. It’s been debated for years. MY OPINION.
krisAgreed! Plenty of mfgs still use DWR treated down and it is still my preference.

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[cmoulder]

I just wanted to caution about that last statement…(I don’t want people to think they are getting an inferior product if their quilt manufacturer uses treated down). A lot of manufacturers use treated down, some don’t. I don’t see any kind of mass exodus away from treated down. It’s been debated for years. It seems for all the info you find deeming it unnecessary or even harmful you’ll find twice as much out their touting the benefits…. MY OPINION.
kris
Early on I was skeptical of hydrophobic treatments but I have some Downtek items and they are still working well.

And you are correct — I should have said *some* manufacturers are moving away from it. HG 950 is not treated; 800 duck and 850 goose are. UGQ moved away from treated down altogether several years ago, EE a few years ago. Maybe there's a list somewhere for which mfgrs do/don't use hydrophobic treated down.

[cmoulder]

A couple of takes, and take from it what you will. I've used both quite a bit and I still don't know.

Western Mountaineering....

Why isn’t Western Mountaineering using hydrophobic down in any products?
We have found in our own testing that the performance enhancements of hydrophobic treatments on high quality down are widely overstated. High quality untreated down already has naturally water repellant oils on it left by the geese (makes sense since geese spend a lot of time in water). These oils help repel water and keep down lofted. More importantly is that these oils last indefinitely. Hydrophobic treatments wash out like a DWR and remove the natural oils during the application process. Because of this, and the water resistant capability of our shell fabrics, we feel that hydrophobic down does not provide a considerable impact on performance and could actually inhibit performance over the lifetime of our products.
-----------------------------

UGQ....

UltimaDOWN is not a hydrophobic treated down. Although we have offered hydrophobic treated down in the past, we have weighed the benefits vs. drawbacks carefully, and have recently stopped offering WR down. The benefits, which are marginal at best in real world scenarios, are offset by lower loft, intra laundering clumping, and the need for more down to offset the lower lofting and possible clumping. Effective April 11, 2016, we will no longer use hydrophobic down in our products.

[Kmazuro]

Not to beat a dead horse….Just to show another makers (katabatic) view. ( taken from another forum).
also worth noting is that most all this talk either for or against is from 4 years ago.
Kris

Here is Katabatic's response:

WM has had the statement on their site since DWR treatments first came out. While I would agree that the performance benefit wasn’t as great when the technology was new, I don’t feel that way any longer. The treatment has come a long way. It has been our experience that the treatment is very helpful, especially in situations when your sweat vapor is likely to condense back into liquid form before it escapes through the shell fabric. This is more common in when temps are well below freezing. We’ve also found it to be very helpful in continuously damp conditions when you don’t have a chance to let your bag dry in the sun. The HyperDry helps the down maintain its loft longer in these situations, and it dries faster, too.

Our supplier disagrees that the treatment negatively affects the natural oils in the down. Also, if you use only a proper detergent that is appropriate for down and DWR treatments when washing your sleeping bag, (like NikWax Down Wash Direct), it is highly unlikely to wash out, unless you wash your bag numerous times per year. Mostly people probably don’t even wash their sleeping bag 10 times in a lifetime, so that shouldn’t be an issue.

All this said, if you’re accustomed to using untreated down, know how to take care of it, and those above scenarios don’t really apply to you, then it sounds like you wouldn’t benefit much from the treatment anyway.

[DGrav]

Back in the day when JRB was testing out treated down, I was the lead tester. I had hiked for years with untreated down and never had an issue and the same seemed to be true of treated down. So I was left thinking, "Is this just snake oil?"

After about a year of testing, I took my brother-in-law on a backpacking trip It was a wet fall weekend, and all four quilts (three treated, one not treated) performed perfectly. When I got home I decided the quilts could use a washing after a season of heavy use. The three treated quilts dried in 1.5 cycles in my dryer with no dryer balls and no need for pulling the clumps of wet down apart. The one untreated quilt took 4 cycles with dryer balls and pulling the clumps of wet down apart every half hour or so. Since one of the claims of dry down is that it will dry faster than untreated down I started to believe that it did have some of the claimed benefits.

After that, I tried a totally unscientific test and soaked two quilts (one treated and one non-treated.) The treated quilt took much longer to completely soak through.

My opinion after about ten years of regular use is that treated down does perform as advertised with no negative impact. I do not believe it is necessary, but I do think the little extra protection is nice to have. I also think it gives folks who are worried about getting their down wet a bit more peace of mind.

[cmoulder]

That's a well-informed view!

FWIW, I'll be using my JRB Sierra Stealth for the first time tomorrow night, probably in the hammock but possibly on the ground. Predicted low temp in the high 40s. Looking forward to trying out the serape mode.

[SilvrSurfr]

I'll go with the katabatic and JRB response - they use less "weenie" words. The other vendors talk about testing, but don't say what that testing was (I personally doubt you could come up with any valid scientific methodology to prove or disprove anything about hydrophobic down). "Possible clumping?" Please. You gotta do better than that.

I also wonder about cost differential of treated vs. untreated down. Could it be that the "untreated down" vendors are just coming up with arguments because they don't want to cut into their own profit margins?

Personally, I got rid of all my untreated down quilts about eight years ago and use only treated goose down. I personally don't see any difference, other than the treated down doesn't get as wet.

[Rolloff]

That's a well-informed view!

FWIW, I'll be using my JRB Sierra Stealth for the first time tomorrow night, probably in the hammock but possibly on the ground. Predicted low temp in the high 40s. Looking forward to trying out the serape mode.

You will love it. I had mine probably 3 years before leaving my much too large, at the time, puffer home and giving the serape mode a try. Works surprisingly well. Perfect length for me. I can sit on my Stansport stool and easily keep the ends of the quilt off the ground. Being a volume weenie I still kick myself for dragging that puffer around. You pack for your fears and pocketstrings :scared:

[cmoulder]

You will love it. I had mine probably 3 years before leaving my much too large, at the time, puffer home and giving the serape mode a try. Works surprisingly well. Perfect length for me. I can sit on my Stansport stool and easily keep the ends of the quilt off the ground. Being a volume weenie I still kick myself for dragging that puffer around. You pack for your fears and pocketstrings :scared:
Good to know! I've been itching to give it a real 'go' after buying it this Spring, and it's just now getting cool enough to justify... right on the verge of needing a camp puffy. I hope to use it a lot this fall, the best time of the year. :cool:

[gunner76]

I use both non treated and treated down quilts and not had any problems with either.

As down is sold by its loft, it does not matter if it is goose or duck, white or grey. I do not care what the color of the down is and or if it is treated or not as long as it keeps me warm