View Full Version : Molly Mac Gear: MAHHA IX UQ
MacEntyre
04-18-2010, 18:27
Folks,
On Friday night at MAHHA, Thing1 and I spent the night at 48*F, each of using a single layer IX UQ. We also had the new 2QZQ UQ Protector under us.
On Saturday night, it got down to 32*F. Thing1 was toasty with Knotty's HH SS OCF pad and a single layer IX UQ. Dutch and I each used two layer IX UQs. Mine had the 2QZQ UQ Protector; Dutch did not. Dutch had far better top insulation than I did. Dutch said he felt it was about 5*F too cold, but when he awoke, he was surprised to learn that it got to 32. In the middle of the night, I added an IX sit pad under my hammock. We were both pleased that the IX did so well!
I have decided to add a 2'X3' IX torso rectangle to the bottom of the IX UQ. I'll add it as a differential layer, so it will have the proper gap. When you nest two IX UQs, there will be four layers of IX under your torso, with built in gap.
I've also decided to eliminate the weight of the binding, and use a rolled hem instead. At each dart, I'll insert a piece of scrap IX for edge strength. Losing the grosgrain binding will make up for the added weight of the torso rectangle.
This will be called the Molly Mac Gear MAHHA IX UQ. All outstanding orders will be MAHHA IX UQs, including the UQs that BigBamaGuy will be testing.
Later, I'll add down to the torso rectangle, and see if it is worth doing.
- MacEntyre
I took a leap of faith and tried Macs UQ yesterday. I will tell you I had a bailout hammock next to me with a KAQ on it. This UQ is thin compared tot he UQ we are accustomed to by far. I had worn standard clothes and used a down Exped Wallcreeper and my bag. I also threw a OMR on top because I didn't want cold from the top to cause the failure of the results. I am not a warm sleeper and I will not sleep if I am cold.
I went to my hammock around 11pm and it was around 40 degrees. I never felt cold and I fell asleep right away. I woke up at 4am and it was around 35 degrees. I felt a little chill but hardly noticable and not worth changing anything. I went back to sleep and woke up at 6am. I could notice slight cold through the UQ but not much. I figured it didn't get vey cold as I wasn't freezing. Much to my dismay it got down to 32 degrees. I would say that I would have been fine at 5 degrees warmer. Mac is changing it so there will be more insutex from the butt to the shoulders. With out those changes I would take it down to 40 easily. With them I'm sure freezing will be comfortable.
This stuff is crazy light and thin. There is quite a bit of forming that goes into it and having the right fit is important.
Have had my doubts about the whole IX thing but it sounds like Mac is really getting this product figured out. TeeDee also reported excellent results with his experiments on a bridge hammock.
Will have to see for myself before I become a true believer.
-Doubting Knotty
bigbamaguy
04-18-2010, 20:01
Mac:
Looking forward to the testers/tests and I am glad that the testing went so well for ya'll this weekend..I may not be able to match the results, temperatures, but I will test them out on all of the hammocks. Meriwether Lewis hang is gonna be my real testing ground, but I will do preleminary tests in the yard until then though.
MedicineMan
04-18-2010, 20:12
YES def. need a bridge model to follow!
and this name, Molly Mac Gear MAHHA IX UQ, my brain needs something smaller to deal with.
Dutch, thanks for being a tester...it's not like Mac has a profit motive here HA! and also glad to hear you used a Wallcreaper (sentimental reasons).
It looks like I might (fingers crossed) be testing one in the Smokys this coming weekend.
Now someone give me a weight of what is delivered when you order the MacIX and the ZQ/TQ Ucover.....I've got motives here....in 2 weeks I head north for a little walk, planning on using a 3sYeti and it's around 12 ounces......see where I'm going...
MacEntyre
04-19-2010, 06:44
BTW, I'm going to make a differential cover for the IX UQ. That way, you are less likely to rig it too tight underneath your hammock. The inner covering will be cut slightly narrow, so that the IX hangs below and provides the small air gap.
One could use a covered IX UQ, and carry an uncovered IX UQ as a supplement for cooler weather.
- MacEntyre
BillyBob58
04-19-2010, 10:13
BTW, I'm going to make a differential cover for the IX UQ. That way, you are less likely to rig it too tight underneath your hammock. The inner covering will be cut slightly narrow, so that the IX hangs below and provides the small air gap.
One could use a covered IX UQ, and carry an uncovered IX UQ as a supplement for cooler weather.
- MacEntyre
Will this be an add on cover for the IX SS quilts, or a separate quilt hat include a (single?) layer of dif cut shell and a layer of IX sewn to it?
http://home.freeuk.com/jrknight/smileys/postpics.gif
MacEntyre
04-19-2010, 13:23
Will this be an add on cover
No, I don't know how to do that. However, it will not be absolutely necessary because of InsulTubes. (See below)
Bleemus, pics are in this thread (http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16117), but I'll add more here.
Today or tomorrow I will have one of the 2'X3' integrated anti-CBS pads installed on an IX UQ. I have been trying to figure out a way to keep the layers separate, and I believe I've got it! I noodled with Pedro a bit, and then noodled more over lunch with my volunteer marketing director (an HF lurker)... and came up with InsulTubes.
InsulTubes are simply long, non-tapered, pleats that make a 3/8" tube and serve the purpose of keeping the layers of IX from touching. In other words, they provide loft. Several of these InsulTubes will be stitched into the anti-CBS pad. I'll also use them in the Molly Mac Gear IX TQ, so the top layer of IX won't lay flat on the lower layer.
I will make some and take a picture!
- MacEntyre
sclittlefield
04-19-2010, 13:42
Baffles for Insultex. Brilliant!
BillyBob58
04-19-2010, 15:24
Sounds very interesting!
Mac - you should get in touch with Joe Sr and see about some kind of joint production and marketing/sales deal. You're doing a lot of product development for him. :lol:
Boris Losdindawoods
04-19-2010, 20:13
InsulTubes are simply long, non-tapered, pleats that make a 3/8" tube and serve the purpose of keeping the layers of IX from touching.
What causes us to belive that this is necessary or helps? The text on the i.d.i.gear web site seems to have been created by somebody who knows how to milk every ounce of marketing value out of anything that even thinks it might be a "feature", but there's no mention of using anything between the layers. I'm sure there's a post somewhere explaining this, but I just can't remember it.
MacEntyre
04-19-2010, 20:21
What causes us to belive that this is necessary or helps?
...over a year of Hammock Forums member testing, that's all! :D
Insultex needs a tiny air gap between itself and the thing it is insulating, whether it is one layer or more. :cool:
Boris Losdindawoods
04-19-2010, 20:35
Somebody tested a multi-layer with air gaps vs a stacked multi-layer? That's what I missed. I really want to hack open a piece of arctic armor and see what's in there. If it makes a difference, then they obviously have something in there and I'd love to know what it is. If they didn't, then every crease or fold in the fabric would become a cold spot. I just don't have $200 worth of curiosity.
What if the mysterious thing between the layers is actually the 2nd layer of IX? If what you need is an "air gap" between the layers, then the 2nd layer of IX becomes the air gap which makes the 3rd layer work. That would explain why they sell 1 layer stuff and 3 layer stuff but nothing with 2 layers.
MacEntyre
04-19-2010, 20:38
The Arctic Armour is over sized... the bulk allows the IX to maintain air gaps.
It works similar to the Garlington Insulator.
Yes, someone has already asked for my scraps!
BillyBob58
04-19-2010, 20:51
...............
What if the mysterious thing between the layers is actually the 2nd layer of IX? If what you need is an "air gap" between the layers, then the 2nd layer of IX becomes the air gap which makes the 3rd layer work. That would explain why they sell 1 layer stuff and 3 layer stuff but nothing with 2 layers.
Actually, they sell one and two layers of Insultex under the "hunting" section.
http://idigear.com/hunting.php
Boris Losdindawoods
04-19-2010, 21:05
Ha! Beat me to it. :D I just noticed the NBU Parka which is their only 2-layer product. This stuff is so weird.
MacEntyre
04-20-2010, 06:32
Here are a couple of pictures of an IXUQ with InsulTubes. I cut a 2'x3' piece of IX, made three pleats about 1/2", hemmed it, then installed it in the bottom of the fitted IXUQ. The InsulTubes tend to lay down, but they provide a little more than twice the thickness of the IX in loft.
Thing1 reports that this is the warmest IXUQ she has ever had under her hammock!
- MacEntyre
Its incredible how new materials are changing things.
InsulTubes are simply long, non-tapered, pleats that make a 3/8" tube and serve the purpose of keeping the layers of IX from touching.
What causes us to belive that this is necessary or helps? \.
As has been mentioned before, One "layer" of IX is made up of a "foamy"
plastic sheet sandwiched between 2 sheets of highly breathable fabric.
What has puzzled me is why the 2 fabric sheets?
I suspect that the explanation of how/why IX works will include the term "Boundary Layer"
I also suspect that Mac's InsulTubes/Baffles help keep the proper gap between the IX layers so the boundary layers are maintained. Brilliant!
My last physics class was 35 years ago, and much has been forgotten, so any corrections or enlightenment would be welcome.
Im trying to understand this... the insulitubes provide the air gap between the two seperate IX UQ's? Or do the tubes itself with the pleats offer a very thin air gap between itself an the UQ, thereby increasing warmth?
MacEntyre
04-20-2010, 07:55
I like that, Oh-No! Boundary layer conditions are just what I had in mind when I did the integral analysis of the temperature gradient while varying the small distance between layers. :lol:
Seriously, it is puzzling that a thin layer of air improves the performance of a thin layer of polyethylene.
I did wonder just how big to make the pleats... then I found out that since the tubes like to lay down, the size of the pleat is not critical at all! InsulTubes are what they are... a 1/2" pleat makes a baffle of about the same height as a 3/8" or a 1/4" pleat.
the insulitubes provide the air gap between the two seperate IX UQ's?
Yes, but between two separate IX layers in one UQ. They are just supports, or spacers.
- MacEntyre, fum State
BillyBob58
04-20-2010, 08:21
I like that, Oh-No! Boundary layer conditions are just what I had in mind when I did the integral analysis of the temperature gradient while varying the small distance between layers. :lol:
Seriously, it is puzzling that a thin layer of air improves the performance of a thin layer of polyethylene.
I did wonder just how big to make the pleats... then I found out that since the tubes like to lay down, the size of the pleat is not critical at all! InsulTubes are what they are... a 1/2" pleat makes a baffle of about the same height as a 3/8" or a 1/4" pleat.
Yes, but between two separate IX layers in one UQ. They are just supports, or spacers.
- MacEntyre, fum State
Re: "thin layer of air", then there is this:
Hey TeeDee, so I get the idea that you don't want the IX snugged up against you be cause that would make a cold spot. But in the UQ application, how far away do you want it to hang? From your instructions, I'm picturing that you would have maybe 3 or 4 inches of air under your butt and shoulders. (Not that I'm picturing your butt:scared::lol:) How much space would be too much?
In my original experiments I was trying for 1/8" to 1/4" air gap under the butt. Never could get that reliably. So I just opted to do the simple thing and use the full 60" width for the end width for the under quilt. With 9" deep arcs that leaves 42" center width for the Insultex and bottom shell material. This is for a 44" end width Bridge with 6" deep arcs.
The amount of air under the butt? about 1/2" to 3/4".
If I had the money to buy lots and lots and lots of Insultex from Mac and more 1.1 ripstop and lots of time, I would experiment with varying the Insultex end width from 50" to 60" in 1" increments and see how much less than that 1/2" to 3/4" air gap is optimal, but it's working now, so I'm off to other projects.
It does seem to go against all previous quilt experience that a gap- assuming some how blocking the flow of outside air into that gap- could actually increase warmth. Or that lack of a gap could actually make things colder.
I did always note that the PeaPod seemed far less sensitive to gaps than other systems I used. I always attributed this to the fact that things were "sealed" off on the full length of the hammock top edges, mostly preventing cold air from flooding in and filling that gap. But I don't think the gap actually increased warmth, unless lack of a gap had been decreasing loft.
chickenwing
04-20-2010, 08:51
It seems to me from my reading and no actual experience with the material (yet, I have some on order) that IX works more or less the way thermal windows (or double pane windows work) the air is in a dead space acting as an insulator. Air that does not move is a very good insulator. Is this not how down works? It traps air when it is at full loft creating essentially a dead air pocket within the down.
I am not an expert on insulation , "but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night." :lol:(I really am not an expert I am just trying to remember high school physical science.)
MacEntyre
04-20-2010, 10:01
...seems to me ...that IX works more or less the way ...double pane windows work...
I think that's the best explanation.
Now imagine if you merely touched the window glass, it would compress and lose it's insulating properties. That's IX!
:eek:
Boris Losdindawoods
04-20-2010, 10:04
Today or tomorrow I will have one of the 2'X3' integrated anti-CBS pads installed on an IX UQ.
Still trying to understand this. If I'm getting it, then the purpose of the insultubes is to create an air gap between two layers of IX. The size of that air gap would be theoretically 2x the thickness of IX but anything touching it or a wrinkle in the fabric or even a strong gust of wind would pretty easily collapse that air gap to zero. Since IX is really a sheet of air bubbles, wouldn't it be simpler/faster/cheaper to just add another layer of IX? You'd then have a guaranteed air gap between your layers because the air gap would be encapsulated inside the middle layer of IX making it a lot harder to accidentally collapse.
That 2'x3' piece of IX would be either $2.50 or $1.66 (can't remember the roll width) so maybe I just don't realize how quick and easy those pleats are to sew. It just seems more labor intensive for a solution that will be defeated by wind.
Thanks for tolerating my confusion.
Boris
btw: I typed "fabrix" 2 or 3 times during this. It appears to want to be a word.
MacEntyre
04-20-2010, 10:28
...wouldn't it be simpler/faster/cheaper to just add another layer of IX?
Yes. I did not want to double the bulk. A 2'X3' piece of IX under my butt got rid of CBS, so that's what I added to the UQ.
...will be defeated by wind.
That has yet to be shown.
I believe three layers of IX with InsulTubes is significantly warmer than three layers of IX without InsulTubes.
We are far beyond thought experiments. I've been using Insultex for several months. My goal is to enable others to get the same performance from IX as I do, without having to know any suspension tricks. InsulTubes does the same thing that a differential covering does. It makes it less likely that performance will degrade as a result of the IX being up against you.
- MacEntyre
Terry_Dodson
04-20-2010, 13:07
What are the prices on these new underquilts? :)
MacEntyre
04-20-2010, 13:48
What are the prices on these new underquilts? :)
$40 for one, $60 for two, $35 to cover one.
I'd like to encourage folks to use them without a covering, because it adds little for what it costs and weighs.
- MacEntyre
Have you had any thoughts on applying a colored dye to the IX quilting ? The thoughts being what kind of dye or paint would you use.
tbone
MacEntyre
04-20-2010, 17:44
...any thoughts on applying a colored dye to the IX quilting ?
Thought about it, nothing tried yet.
It wouldn't surprise me to learn that nothing will adhere to it. Polyehtylene cannot be glued, painted or repaired with expoxy or any other resin or adhesive.
It would be nice to save the weight of a covering fabric!
Well, I will try something this weekend, I wasn`t expecting to dye the polyethylene, just the fabric outer, I will post up the results.
MacEntyre
04-20-2010, 18:50
...just the fabric outer
The non-woven scrim might be polyester, but it is probably polypropylene, since Insultex is so bouyant.
It would be nice to discover that it takes a dye!
I am going to try 3 methods.1) Fabric dye,2) diluted paint mixture or 3)light coats of spray paint which I think would bond really well but it might not leave the fabric feeling as nice.
tgreening
05-01-2010, 23:04
The non-woven scrim might be polyester, but it is probably polypropylene, since Insultex is so bouyant.
It would be nice to discover that it takes a dye!
Bouyant? Hmmm. Jerry Chair 6 in 1? All five plus Personal Flotation Device? :)
chiefams
05-03-2010, 18:45
any other reports from those who have used these with insultubes? Mac I am excited to try these on the traveler. I don't mind not having an outer layer of ripstop because the white color will work great with my gray traveler i think :)
MacEntyre
05-03-2010, 19:33
any other reports from those who have used these with insultubes?
None that I've heard about this week, but it won't be long... I have almost two dozen IX UQs that will be mailed out this week!
The InsulTubes work very well!
Mac I am excited to try these on the traveler.
For the Traveler, I'll make it just like the Blackbird, a little wider and fuller at both ends.
I received an excellent suggestion from someone today, and will make a prototype soon: a slip on cover. That way, you can go ultra-light, or you can have your favorite color in a durable nylon cover.
BillyBob58
05-03-2010, 20:03
None that I've heard about this week, but it won't be long... I have almost two dozen IX UQs that will be mailed out this week!
The InsulTubes work very well!
For the Traveler, I'll make it just like the Blackbird, a little wider and fuller at both ends.
I received an excellent suggestion from someone today, and will make a prototype soon: a slip on cover. That way, you can go ultra-light, or you can have your favorite color in a durable nylon cover.
That sounds like it has good potential(the slip on cover).
I'm going to have trouble coming up with many temps for testing until next fall! ( or on a trip somewhere cooler). But I have been an "outlier" so far, not managing to be as warm as some of you guys. So I am just hoping to get a little closer to where y'all have been temp wise. But I think I can already tell that the tubes are going to help.
Related item: we all know that one of the main benefits of dealing with our cottage industry folks is an unusually high level of customer service. But I think MacEntyre must have just set a world record. I just sent my HHSS style IX UQ back for addition of tubes. I did not indicate that I was in any particular hurry. I got them here in MS this morning, from NC. I was surprised and had to go check to see when I sent them. Sure enough, it was given to the post office on WED afternoon! With nothing fancier than the ( 3 day?) priority shipping. Back in my hands Mon AM.
MacEntyre, how did you do that?
I haven`t tried to dye the IX yet , I did put some thought into it though. I`m thinking a sprayed on color is probably a better idea. The reasoning is that a dipping process my clog the air pockets in the inner part of the IX affecting its ability to trap air.
MacEntyre
05-03-2010, 20:22
MacEntyre, how did you do that?
I live in a small town... post office is not far away. :rolleyes:
I sure wish I could get all the other IX UQs out of here that fast! Hang in there, everybody! I'm getting it done!
- MacEntyre
chiefams
05-03-2010, 20:34
Thats the beauty of cottage industries..
we are willing to wait for a great product!
ikemouser
05-03-2010, 20:45
What is the protector? A weathershield?
MacEntyre
05-03-2010, 21:07
What is the protector? A weathershield?
2Q & ZQ make the 2QZQ UQ Protector (http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16556&highlight=2QZQ+protector), which is a silnylon UC, or weathershield. Is that what you are referring to?
What I'm thinking of making is a breathable, lightweight, nylon slip cover for an IX UQ.
MedicineMan
05-03-2010, 22:08
what i'm using at the moment is my hammocksock provided by Unsponsored...it protects from splatter, adds another layer, and is my bugnet until providence provides a 1/3 bugnet or I get off the can and get an injector...
ikemouser
05-04-2010, 08:15
im using a 7oz sil weather shield.
tgreening
05-17-2010, 11:23
Just wondering if I'm moving up that List yet. I got a new hammock and I'm itching to add the IX to it and see how she fits. :)
OldnSlow
05-25-2010, 21:34
I have one of the IX MAHHA UQs. I am not sure if I should place this between the two layers of the switchback, or place it underneath, like a true UQ? Thanks for your input.
John
MacEntyre
05-25-2010, 21:51
Just wondering if I'm moving up that List yet. I got a new hammock and I'm itching to add the IX to it and see how she fits.
Yours will ship tomorrow morning!
I have one of the IX MAHHA UQs. I am not sure if I should place this between the two layers of the switchback, or place it underneath, like a true UQ?
It won't work well in between the layers, because it will be compressed. Hang it tight around the edges and loose underneath. It should only touch the hammock around the edges, along the black binding of the UQ.
:cool:
Albert Skye
08-08-2010, 14:03
I did wonder just how big to make the pleats... then I found out that since the tubes like to lay down, the size of the pleat is not critical at all! InsulTubes are what they are... a 1/2" pleat makes a baffle of about the same height as a 3/8" or a 1/4" pleat.
It would increase labour but I think performance would improve by using more narrower pleats rather than fewer wider ones (e.g., three 1/8" pleats spread over the space between two of the 3/8" pleats).
Alternatively, the layers could be separated with a replaceable air bladder (plastic bag), a little down, found materials (dry leaves/grass), by direct inflation (assuming airtight material and construction), &c.
See new thread...
MacEntyre
08-11-2010, 08:50
It would increase labour but I think performance would improve by using more narrower pleats rather than fewer wider ones
It could also increase weight. If the pleats used up the same amount of width, it may not matter. Hard to know where is the best compromise.
I absolutely love MY IX UQ. Thanks again Mac for a fine product.