Opinions on an AT thru set-up

[Cannibal]

There seems to be a lot of chatter out there about insulation; which makes sense seeing how they are dealing with ice in the Whites this morning.

So here is my loaded question:

I'd like to know what you'd carry (dream package) for an AT thru with regards to insulation. Flexibility is obviously an issue and it has me leaning pretty hard toward the JRB stuff, but am I missing something? I know I'll hear the arguments about down and moisture and the weight of synthetic options, but that's fine! For that matter, maybe an UnderQuilt isn't the best option (you have NO idea how hard that was for me to type).

I keep thinking I'm smarter about this stuff than I really am; thank God for this site! I'd love to hear an open/honest discussion on your opinions. Not quite a WhiteBlaze discussion, but somewhere in between. I am planning to carry my Warbonnet unless one of my DIY builds really blows my kilt up & will be covering-up with my BlackCat.

If you can't tell; I'm getting a little nervous. Only 5 months to go and it feels like 5 minutes. Would really appreciate some guidance here.

[angrysparrow]

I think the most important thing about hammocking gear on a long hike is that you are comfortable with the gear you take and trust your knowledge about what you can and can't do with it. So, if you are comfortable with underquilts and know what conditions you can deal with using them, then that's what you should use. Vice versa for pads. Knowing what YOU can do with your own gear is more important than any debate among other people about gear types and comparisons. JMO

[GrizzlyAdams]

AS is wise as usual.

With 5 months to go you have time to develop the experience and comfort level he suggests.

Then my $0.05 worth of observations
- sometimes, somewhere, you'll have to go to ground. You've been reading the trail journals and you know that.
- much of the hike an UQ will be overkill for your under-insulation needs
- a pad can be multi-use, something to sit on, something to give shape to your pack, etc.
- a pad is easily rolled and lives outside your pack. Works after getting wet.
Your pack space needs are smaller, underquilts have bulk.
- a pad inside of the hammock can be a hassle.
- pads are usually narrower than you want.

If it were me I'd be looking for solutions where a pad jury-rigged to be wide enough is on the outside of the hammock, a sleeve in the body or a two-layer hammock. Maybe WBG can advise on sewing a sleeve in the bottom of his hammock design.

If you went this way, you'd have the upcoming colder months to get thee up to the early portion of the AT and try it out.

But what AS said...the most important thing is that you've made up your mind, and you have the kinks worked out of the system.

Grizz

[Cannibal]

- sometimes, somewhere, you'll have to go to ground. You've been reading the trail journals and you know that.
:eek:

NEVER!!!

OK, maybe if she is really cute, but even then...:D


The time to practice is really my enemy here. As Grizz pointed out in another thread, it doesn't exactly get cold down here in FL. At least not the part of it that I live in. I'm going to take some trips up to N. Georgia, but that's lots of miles to drive for weekend trips when I'm trying to stuff away every penny for the hike. I will be making a trip to Colorado between now and then which will help A LOT, but even then I'm not dealing with an East Coast cold. For those who don't know; BIG DIFFERENCE! So in many ways I'm forced to listen to the "debate among other people about gear types and comparisons" that angrysparrow mentioned. I guess if that's the case, I'm in the right place.

Anyhow, thanks for the initial posts and wise words. Except that whole going to ground thing. :) Guess I'm just trying to work through some nerves and doubts.

[schrochem]

I can't help you right now, but this winter I'll be playing with different types on the Bridge hammock. I agree that you should be comfortable with what you are going to use. I know I can't handle a pad inside the hammock. It just isn't comfortable to me.
With an adjustable bottom, I plan to see what types of combinations will work. Weight could be saved by having insulation only where it's needed. For the bridge, that will be easy to accommodate. It's known that a pad can really help insulate. Well if your pack requires a pad, that can be used as Part of your insulation system and another part can be insulation. If you have a pad, maybe you don't need as much insulation and can save weight there.
As for sweat, etc. from a pad, I plan to try having insulation on top of the pad and then all that snugged up against the hammock. I might even make each layer adjustable, so i can keep insulation snug, but lower the ccf if it gets to clammy.
Also, perhaps a weathershield layer...
Of course it doesn't get that cold here in central Texas either.....

Something else to consider is how much a tarp (like the one Youngblood came up with) will help the temperature around the hammock.

[johnnyquest]

im looking at taking my hammock on my thruhike. and as of now i plan on a 8-wing spe with as much blue pad as i need.

[2Questions]

I've had great success with a Walmart waffle CCF pad to about 3 degrees. (I also use an additional 3/8" CCF slipped in with it from butt to shoulders) and also additional 3/8" wings. It's cheap and all put together with velcro. Versatile, sectional, and forms my pack structure.

[FanaticFringer]

Michele should be able to give you some good advise for your thru.

[AngeeO]

AS is wise as usual.
If it were me I'd be looking for solutions where a pad jury-rigged to be wide enough is on the outside of the hammock, a sleeve in the body or a two-layer hammock. Maybe WBG can advise on sewing a sleeve in the bottom of his hammock design.Grizz

Just pulled all my materials out to begin sewing my hammock. I bought the kit( from Ed S.) because I wanted to add a sleeve on the outside for the pad.
So glad I stopped my work to come here and read a little more. My questions are...
Would the pad sleeve work inside the hammock?
What if I were to put velcro around the edges of the sleeve, this way I could use it inside or outside the hammock? velcro is already in place for the bug net?
I too, will be using this hammock for my thru-hike next year. Want to get the hammock body done before I start thinking about warmth. I live in the Catskills, so I will have many cold days to test it out.
Hoping to get it done so that I can attend the MAHHA in October and learn, learn learn. :)
Angel

[slowhike]

angel... i don't know just what you have in mind w/ the pad sleeve, but i have really considered sewing something like a SPE inside the hammock, but i would want to make it wide enough to sew it to the long sides.
any time you think about sewing any where inside the hemmed edges of the hammock, your getting into risky thinking<g>. ...tim

[slowhike]

cannibal... i think that even though you want your system to be flexible as possible, most people will have at least one switch planned during a thru hike of the at.
sgt rock was talking about that this week end at hot springs. you may want to go to his site (hiking headquarters) & ask the same question of him.
but keep in mind that he's out doors a lot & seems to be a little more warm blooded than most. this past week end as the temps dropped, he was one of the few that stayed w/ shorts & a tee shirt most of the time<g>.

i would personally lean toward an under quilt & a 3/4 length ccf pad combo.
this same combo would probably be lighter for the warmer stretches & thicker for the colder times. ...tim

[Dutch]

I thru'd with my HHULB in 2003. I really didn't have near the chioces we have today. HH was just developing an UQ. I used a z-rest the entire way. There were a few times I had to lay in a shelter, maybe 5. I regretted every time. I still don't have an UQ and use my z-rest, but that is because I am cheap, cheap, cheap and UQ are expensive, expensive, expensive. I think if I were to do it again I wold have an UQ for my cold weather gear. That's b4 Mt. Rodgers and after Glencliff (if you northbound). No sense carrying it through 60 and 70 degree nights. Realize that gear is important now and it is all you think about. When you start hiking it is what everyone will be talking about. Than after 150 mile it will just be food that everyone will be talking about. Remember it is only 2174 miles and they made the trail way too short.

[Bulldog]

I found that on my AT aborted hike and subsqent section hikes that a nest and a gg 1/4 wide pad worked quite well for me. I have a double layerd hammcok, so dealing with the gossamier gear pad really wasn't that bad. I used the pad and quilt combo in southern N.C. when the weather turned cold and I was warm down past 30. (Although my top quilt was a western mountaineering megalite with the down shaken toward the center.) Once you get into VA (past Mt Rogers IMHO) you can loose the nest as most nights will be too warm. Maybe carry JRB weather shield for those colder nights. Oh and necer dewell on miles way ahead, only concertrate one day at a time. And slowly youll make it.

[Just Jeff]

Here are my thoughts, based on my style of hiking so far...haven't thru'd yet, just a handful of hiking trips and too much thinking/planning.

I like having a torso pad, but I don't like it under my torso b/c it makes me sweat. But I like having the backup, having somewhere to sit when it's wet or I'm on hard rocks, etc. I even use it as a windblock sometimes.

BUT - I also use it for the foot/leg insulation in my WarmHammock, which is only insulated to mid-thigh to save weight. So I get the best of both worlds...a pad as backup that's also useful in the hammock (my legs don't cause the sweat my torso does when I use the pad that way), and weight savings.

You're carrying the WarBonnet - see if Brandon will sell you one of his half-underquilts, then use a torso pad on your feet. That'll be good for most nights...when it's too hot, just loosen the underquilt so you have an airgap to cool you off.

For the cold nights in the beginning...a few options, depending on where your priorities are - weight, cost, bulk, etc. You could bring the half-underquilt and pad, then add a full underquilt...a JRB NS would be multi-use. Then when it warms up, send home your sleeping bag and use the NS as a top quilt.

Or you could leave the half-underquilt and just get a thicker underquilt, then switch out when temps warm up. Lots of options there, and you always have your pad as backup.

So....

For >35, Warbonnet, half-underquilt, pad, use underquilt as top quilt

For <35, Warbonnet, underquilt, half-underquilt, pad and something else inside (sleeping bag or thick quilt)

[Miguel]

[QUOTE=GrizzlyAdams;28466]AS is wise as usual.

With 5 months to go you have time to develop the experience and comfort level he suggests.

Then my $0.05 worth of observations
- sometimes, somewhere, you'll have to go to ground. You've been reading the trail journals and you know that.
- much of the hike an UQ will be overkill for your under-insulation needs
- a pad can be multi-use, something to sit on, something to give shape to your pack, etc.
- a pad is easily rolled and lives outside your pack. Works after getting wet.
Your pack space needs are smaller, underquilts have bulk.
- a pad inside of the hammock can be a hassle.
- pads are usually narrower than you want.

If it were me I'd be looking for solutions where a pad jury-rigged to be wide enough is on the outside of the hammock, a sleeve in the body or a two-layer hammock. Maybe WBG can advise on sewing a sleeve in the bottom of his hammock design.

If you went this way, you'd have the upcoming colder months to get thee up to the early portion of the AT and try it out.

But what AS said...the most important thing is that you've made up your mind, and you have the kinks worked out of the system.

Grizz[/QUOTE

Speaking of pads being too narrow caught my eye. I believe I have pretty sweet solution. Today I bought two Wally world pads ($10) and a yard of ripstop nylon ($6). I butted the two pads side by side and glued a 12" strip of ripstop the length of the seam on one side only. I now have 40" wide pad that folds over perfectly to a 20" pad for packing purposes, with the ripstop acting as a hinge. 40" is too wide and I haven't yet decided exactly how wide I want it or if I want to cut wings. I'm thinking it will roll up better without cutting the wings. I'm really happy with the way it turned out. Maybe I'll post pics of the final product. BTW....I use it with a Claytor hammock with the double bottom.

Miguel

[Miguel]

AS is wise as usual.

With 5 months to go you have time to develop the experience and comfort level he suggests.

Then my $0.05 worth of observations
- sometimes, somewhere, you'll have to go to ground. You've been reading the trail journals and you know that.
- much of the hike an UQ will be overkill for your under-insulation needs
- a pad can be multi-use, something to sit on, something to give shape to your pack, etc.
- a pad is easily rolled and lives outside your pack. Works after getting wet.
Your pack space needs are smaller, underquilts have bulk.
- a pad inside of the hammock can be a hassle.
- pads are usually narrower than you want.

If it were me I'd be looking for solutions where a pad jury-rigged to be wide enough is on the outside of the hammock, a sleeve in the body or a two-layer hammock. Maybe WBG can advise on sewing a sleeve in the bottom of his hammock design.

If you went this way, you'd have the upcoming colder months to get thee up to the early portion of the AT and try it out.

But what AS said...the most important thing is that you've made up your mind, and you have the kinks worked out of the system.

Grizz

Speaking of pads being too narrow caught my eye. I believe I have pretty sweet solution. Today I bought two Wally world pads ($10) and a yard of ripstop nylon ($6). I butted the two pads side by side and glued a 12" strip of ripstop the length of the seam on one side only. I now have 40" wide pad that folds over perfectly to a 20" pad for packing purposes, with the ripstop acting as a hinge. 40" is too wide and I haven't yet decided exactly how wide I want it or if I want to cut wings. I'm thinking it will roll up better without cutting the wings. I'm really happy with the way it turned out. Maybe I'll post pics of the final product. BTW....I use it with a Claytor hammock with the double bottom.

Miguel

[GrizzlyAdams]

Speaking of pads being too narrow caught my eye. I believe I have pretty sweet solution. Today I bought two Wally world pads ($10) and a yard of ripstop nylon ($6). I butted the two pads side by side and glued a 12" strip of ripstop the length of the seam on one side only. I now have 40" wide pad that folds over perfectly to a 20" pad for packing purposes, with the ripstop acting as a hinge. 40" is too wide and I haven't yet decided exactly how wide I want it or if I want to cut wings. I'm thinking it will roll up better without cutting the wings. I'm really happy with the way it turned out. Maybe I'll post pics of the final product. BTW....I use it with a Claytor hammock with the double bottom.

Miguel

nice. I picked up 2 of the 20" wide Gossamer ThinLight pads on sale (2nd's), intending to make a 40" wide pad for my Bridge hammock, using duct-tape as a hinge. Riptop will be classier. What kind of glue did you use?

with the bridge I'll use the full width.

Grizz

[Rapt]

Neat idea Miguel...

Miguel, Grizz,
IF you are worried about the seam being in the middle, you can use one pad as the central piece and split the other pad in half and the glue like described on each side, so both halves fold into the centre. There's two seams, but they are on the side like wings rather than right in the middle... and it still folds really neat and flat.

Just a thought...

[Dutch]

This gluing hinge idea is a good one. How is the glue holding up and what kind of glue did you use?

[Miguel]

This gluing hinge idea is a good one. How is the glue holding up and what kind of glue did you use?

I used contact cement on both materials, one layer. It seems to be bomber. It folds together perfectly. The only problem I had was when rolling it up the upper pad tended to creep on the lower pad making it difficult to roll. I seemed to have solved the problem by folding the pad a bit flatter, basically making about four folds instead of trying to roll it tight. It actually seems to fit on the pack better than when it's perfectly round. I've cut it down (so far) to about 36" and rounded to corners a bit. For now I'll leave it in a rectangular shape as it provides some serious coverage the full length of the hammock. In the hammock it seems more comfortable with the hinged side up....not sure why.
I do wish I could find a pad that's not quite as stiff as the $5 Wally World pad. It would be more easy to fold.

Today I'm going to try a 25" wide $10 Wally World waffle pad with some wings attached with velcro, just to see the difference.

Miguel

Miguel

[Coffee]

Here are a couple thoughts from someone who made a wrong decision.

I went a little too light on the insulation for a stretch and had to shelter a few nights. Not too much fun with a ccp. I think when I get back I am going to play around with a DAM as my bottom insulation. That way I will still be comfortable on the ground.

There are places where you are just not going to hammock. Not because you can't, but because you want to. The Huts in the whites and Cloud Pond Lookout a few weeks ago for me off the top of my head. There are also some really great cowboy camping opportunities if you are setup for it.

Oh and don't listen to anyone when they mention the Whites as a reason not to hammock. There is only 3 or so ridge walks where there are no trees. And no one camps up there. It is only something like 14 miles across Washington with 2 huts to stay at and a visitors center to stop at, and a couple of 3 or 4 miles ones. All doable in a day. Most people stay in the huts for a work for stay. If not there are plenty of stealth sites. The Glencliff Hostel has a list of them if you are going north.

I think at least for me, a comfy pad that will work as bottom insulation and ground cushioning would be best. I am finally used to sleeping with a quilt on the ground without getting drafts.

On a positive note, I am in Salisberry for the next hour or so and picked up my cold weather setup. There were a few nights in the 30's lately. Now I am good for whatever comes. I have a line on a waterfall I can hang at tonight if I get going soon.

[Cannibal]

Remember it is only 2174 miles and they made the trail way too short.

That may be one of my favorite new quotes. Now, if I can just keep warm.

[Boose]

Oh and don't listen to anyone when they mention the Whites as a reason not to hammock.

Man, the Whites are causing me to hammock... especially since the whole range is mostly trees, rocks, and roots! Sleeping on those with a CCF pad... :(

HE, I'm enjoying your trail journals. Stay warm.

[schrochem]

There are places where you are just not going to hammock. Not because you can't, but because you want to. The Huts in the whites and Cloud Pond Lookout a few weeks ago for me off the top of my head. There are also some really great cowboy camping opportunities if you are setup for it.


HE I know you aren't probably going to see this but I was wondering if you make this comment from a 'social' POV or for a better view. I'm just wondering because if someone tends to be a loner, I would think they would hang away from shelters or other areas where people are camping. So if trees are pretty much available somewhere along the trail, AND you like to be alone, why would someone go to the ground (if they have a proper weather resistant hammock setup)?

[Cannibal]

Judging from his journal, I suspect it's the social aspect. I think HE likes the company and at least one of his entries describes cowboy camping around a campfire near a pond; that does sound kind of nice. Of course, he woke-up cold and climbed into his hammock! LOL

[locorogue]

softie merlin 3, thermarest, and my gore tex bivy...

[Coffee]

Thanks. My comments actually are both. I have only found 1 shelter that I couldn't hang next to. The RPH shelter in NY a couple nights ago. That one is an old cabin next to a road and some houses. I could have moved on, but it was a good spot. There is also the option to order pizza there, but no one came with a cell phone that worked. I could have found trees, but I think I would have ended up in someone's backyard.

It is also a nice option in the pouring rain to just walk in and stay in a shelter if there is only a couple other people there. At least as the AT is concerned. I still scream like a little girl though when the mice come out to play.

I think it is completly possible to hammock the whole AT. I guess I should add the disclaimer that I prefer the hammock, but are willing to look at other options. I'm just thinking that not carrying any pad completly limits for options. Even a torso pad would be better than none.

I will say though, there are some mountain top balds that are prefect for cowboy camping. I scored a leaky thermarest that someone left at a shelter I hope to get fixed soon, about the same weight as my ccp. I might have to give that a try.

It's been really dry this year. A lot of places the shelters are the only reliable water. Except for lower NY, for some reason they are only at seasonal springs.

That and I like to talk to someone at the end of the day. I am planning on taking a couple rest days soon though. Maybe someone not wanting to run the trail will catch up with me.

[warbonnetguy]

i just last week covered my 1/8"ccf with ripstop front and back. sewed it to the pad. it feels alot better. now it doesn't stick to me or the hammock and is ALOT easier to adjust underneath me. very big improvement in my opinion. i also don't have to worry about tearing such a thin pad while trying to pull it this way or that



nice. I picked up 2 of the 20" wide Gossamer ThinLight pads on sale (2nd's), intending to make a 40" wide pad for my Bridge hammock, using duct-tape as a hinge. Riptop will be classier. What kind of glue did you use?

with the bridge I'll use the full width.

Grizz

[slowhike]

I still scream like a little girl though when the mice come out to play.

now that's funny... especially knowing that you're good size fellow<g>.

[Cannibal]

OK, here is what I'm thinking about the original thought.

1/2 length UQ (synthetic) for the torso
ccf pad folded under the legs/feet
hammock sock with sil ends and 1.1 ripstop body
No Sniveler topquilt

I figure I should be able to get to the low 20's with this set-up. I'm a pretty warm sleeper and if it gets too cold I'll unfold the pad and use it full length. The sock should help with the wind and fog and of course the No Sniveler I just want cause, well it's cool. :)

Just Jeff and Warbonnetguy are the ones that really convinced me about the 1/2 length UQ. I get to carry the synthetic (and not concern myself as much about wetness) without the weight or space penelty. The pad; fine I'll carry it and if it makes the 1/2 UQ work, then I'll deal with my internal shame.

Of course, no sleep system is complete without clothing (so they say ;) ), but I'm going to hold off on that until just before departure. Just in case my belly gets any smaller. :D

Good ideas - bad ideas?

[SGT Rock]

Here is what I have already set up for my thru-hike, January 27 start date.

For the base:
HH Hyperlite with snakeskins. I have added a couple of carabieneers for a little faster set up. 22.22 oz
HH Stock tarp with JRB slingshot tie outs - 9.33 oz
A 1/2" Oware pad with a mummy cut - 9.72 oz
2 MSR needle stakes - 0.64 oz total
And a Hungry Howie down quilt - 18.02 oz
Stuff sack for the quilt - 0.78 oz
Total = 59.71 oz or 3.73 pounds

With this sort of rig I am comfortable into the 40s and can make it to the 30s.

To take me down a little lower:
JRB No-Sniveler Under Quilt - 21.27 oz
JRB suspension system - 1.13 oz
Total = 22.40 oz or 1.4 pounds

With this added on I am comfy into the 30s and can make it into the 10s or 20s.

Then for the really bad weather I also have this stuff for a back so I can shield the system or go to ground:
JRB Weathershield top and bottom - 14.49 oz
JRB Stuff sack - 0.46 oz
Emergency blanket "groundcloth" - 0.88 oz
Total = 15.83 oz - almost a pound.

When I start I will have all this stuff in addition to all my clothing. The whole hammock kit is 98.94 oz or 6.2 pounds

My experience with this layering system is I can be comfy down in the 20s and make it down to the single digits while still hanging. As I proceed north and the weather improves, I can send home stuff I do not need.

[Cannibal]

Thanks for the weights Rock. I haven't started adding it up yet (still don't know what the final on the UQ will be), but this will make a nice comparison for me when I do.

Jan 27th!? Is that a Springer start or do I remember correctly and you're going to do the BMT first?

[SGT Rock]

The BMT starts on Springer.

[Cannibal]

I thought it ended on Springer. My bad.

[SGT Rock]

Depends on which way you walk I guess. It has one Terminus at Springer and the other at Davenport Gap with a few AT crossings in between. My plan is to start on Springer using the BMT on 27 January and allow myself time (because of weather) to get to Davenport gap. I should get there on or about 25 Febuary (maybe earlier, who knows) and go AT the rest of the way to Katahdin.

[Redtail]

I thought it ended on Springer. My bad.

A common misconception. That's why they spent so much money on all those signs (http://www.btco.net/ghosts/signals/direcsigns/onewaytailwashburn.jpg).
:D

[cargousa]

I started with the JRB Nest...boy...that's good sleepin! had it down to 6 degrees with no problem (with clothes etc), so it would be in my 'dream list' And by dream list, I mean the list of gear my sherpa carries <g>/

I loved it, but the Nest went home at Damascus and didn't come back out, instead I used about 3ft of 24" wide CCF. It sucked, my back was sweating, my shoulders would get cold if I moved over and touched the sides of the hammock. My feet were very cold in NH and Maine until I found a good way to keep my pack under them at night.

CCF....8oz instead of 22 oz for the Nest.... I love my Nest, but ounces become pounds and pounds become tired feet!

I only slept in 5 shelters the whole way, about 160+ nights in the hammock, screw going to ground!!!

FYI, I went on a serious weight loss program for my pack....25lb base weight to start at Springer....12lb base weight by Glencliff, NH so I was a little fanatical about pack weight, I know a woman that carried her Nest the entire trail, even when the temps were in the 95 degree range. She had one of those huge Oregon Research bags as a pack liner and would stuff her Nest in there and use it as her pad. To each their own!

--Bytecode
GAME '07
aka Cargousa

[slowhike]

congratulations Cargousa!!!
i see your last post here at HF was 2/22/07. when did you actually start?
doesn't sound like the timing right to see hammock engineer, was it?

glad to hear that you spent almost all your nights in a hammock!

i hope it was as great over all as you had hoped. ...tim

[Cannibal]

It sucked, my back was sweating, my shoulders would get cold if I moved over and touched the sides of the hammock. My feet were very cold in NH and Maine until I found a good way to keep my pack under them at night.

Yeah, that's been my primary reason for wanting to avoid pads. But, I've been convinced of the merit of having one on hand. I made myself a really poor imitation of a SPE last week and took it with me this weekend. I found having that layer of nylon between me and the pad really helped; a lot.

Congrats on your thru (hangin style)! Feel free to send any hints or suggestions my way. :D

[FanaticFringer]

Congrats on your thru. 6 degrees with just your Nest underneath? I would have froze to death.