View Full Version : Paracord vs Spectra/Dyneema
Obviously, Spectra will beat paracord hands down in performance and breaking load.
However, paracord is more useful to me in a camping, bushcraft or survival situation. It knots better, is cheaper and I can separate it into the sleeve and seven PE strands that can be used for snares, fishing or just tying stuff.
Is there a Spectra, Dyneema, or Marlow, etc. line with paracord construction but performance approaching regular spectra line?
For now, I've taken to carrying 2 & 3mm Spectra lines and a reel of Dyneema 25lb test braided fishing line. That's more than I need/ want to carry, so please recommend a better solution.
pure_mahem
10-02-2007, 01:27
I don't know if your talking about using paracord for allround general use or just having it if you need it in asurvival situation. If your looking at a survival situation there are quite a few ways to carry some paracord with you. For a large quantity such as a hundred feet or so you could crochet yourself a set of straps to replace the ones on your pack, paracord is kind of cushiony. Another option would be to replace your shoe laces with paracord. You could also wrapit on a knife handle for a better grip until you need it. You could weave it around your nalgene bottle, this would save from having to use an article of clothing to wrap around it when your using as a hot water bottle. Let your imagination be your guide. I actually made a key fob that has about twenty five feet woven into it and you'ld never guess thats how much cord was in it, key fob also has a small ferrocerrium rod hidden in the weave just in case.
If your curious about crochet you should be able to find something on the web. It's basiclly a bunchof slip knots made into a pattern. Pretty easy. Hope this helps.
Thanks; I made myself a belt out of about dunno 20 yards of the stuff. My problem is not so much figuring out how to carry it, it's deciding whether I should carry paracord vs Spectra.
It's just that paracord is very flexible for general purposes, but offers horrible performance. I wouldn't like to rig a hammock with it. Likewise, I wouldn't really want to set a snare in 4mm Spectra, unless I was trapping biiiiig animals (i.e. never).
There are many options for what you're looking for. Basically a lot of the sailing high tech ropes use a braided sleeve of say polyester with spectra cores. For instance I believe Spyderline is one such. See also vectran and technora ropes.
The cover makes the spectra rope knot like a regular rope (or paracord) but with much higher strength and less stretch. Spend some time poking about some sailing supply sites. You're looking for what's called double braid (with a core) as opposed to single braid (hollow tube like you get when you pull the core out.)
Personally I'd carry some light single braid spectra rope and some spectra/dyneema fishing line... I have some thats .7mm dia and rated as 200lb test. It takes up next to no space anywhere in a small coil. I just stick it in my personal survival kit.
The big downfall of spectra is easy melting... Like running it over a branch or something and pulling under tension. It'll melt and break unless you have some sort of pulley or slider...
angrysparrow
10-02-2007, 07:18
What about using dyneema that's inside a sleeve? That would offer the strength of dyneema, but with a better feel and handling. The Spyderline that's popular here is polyester-sleeved dyneema.
Just as an FYI for folks who may not realize... Spectra and Dyneema are trade names for the same material... Ultra aligned, drawn, UHMWPE.
angrysparrow
10-02-2007, 07:26
Just as an FYI for folks who may not realize... Spectra and Dyneema are trade names for the same material... Ultra aligned, drawn, UHMWPE.
I posted a link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyneema) about that last week I think.
I think you probably did :D , but possibly not everyone saw it.
Yeah I know, like Ford and Honda or Hoover and Dyson. I've been using sheathed braid like on the HH rigging lines. I was wondering if there was a spectra/ dyneema or similar performance line constructed like paracord. That'd be ideal.
I like paracord 550 because it has these 7 separate (non-braided) strands inside:
http://www.georgia-outfitters.com/images/7strandparacord.jpg
I use 550 cord BECAUSE of the elasticity of it. I would rather have abuilt-in "fudge factor" than miss judge an application and end up going hungry. I have used 550 cord for snares successfully, I gut and use just the sleeve so the snare knot slips and grips easier. It works on rabbit sized game perfectly. I have used the inner cords for the smaller bird snares I set, but I have abandoned them because they rate of return is horrible. I did catch a woodpecker once but let him go unharmed (his heart rate may have been a little high :) ). I had built a natural fish trap that was starting to produce nicely so I was taking the bird snares down when I found him anyway.
I don't know the specifics of Dyneema but I would think that the shock load is less for the higher tensil strength and less stretch. A snared animal can put quite a shock load on a snare.
550 cord seems to work very well for my applications. If I need something stronger it is proly for a specialized application so I would bring the right rope/cord/cable/webbing anyway.
Actually with less stretch shock loads are higher...
Thats why climbing rope is so stretchy, so it doesn't snap your neck/spine/leg/arm/etc when you fall.
Right tool for the right job is always the best bet.
slowhike
10-05-2007, 20:25
I use 550 cord BECAUSE of the elasticity of it. I would rather have abuilt-in "fudge factor" than miss judge an application and end up going hungry. I have used 550 cord for snares successfully, I gut and use just the sleeve so the snare knot slips and grips easier. It works on rabbit sized game perfectly. I have used the inner cords for the smaller bird snares I set, but I have abandoned them because they rate of return is horrible. I did catch a woodpecker once but let him go unharmed (his heart rate may have been a little high :) ). I had built a natural fish trap that was starting to produce nicely so I was taking the bird snares down when I found him anyway.
I don't know the specifics of Dyneema but I would think that the shock load is less for the higher tensil strength and less stretch. A snared animal can put quite a shock load on a snare.
550 cord seems to work very well for my applications. If I need something stronger it is proly for a specialized application so I would bring the right rope/cord/cable/webbing anyway.
interesting stuff w/ the snares. if we ever cross trails, maybe i could get you to show me a couple. ...tim
pure_mahem
10-05-2007, 21:21
I use floral wire for snares seems to work pretty good for anything up to a large rabbit. pretty cheap too. but I do carry 550 cord too, just in case. Lashings and such and any other emergency use. I suppose I could also use it for snares but the floral wire is a lot cheaper and in my opinion more suited puts more acute pressure were it is needed and with the right loop at the end binds down just fine. Floral wire comes in handy for many uses also besides.
warbonnetguy
10-05-2007, 23:50
zdp, sounds like the 25# test spectra fishing line you have is probably your best bet, it has to weigh nothing even for 100'. most spectra or vectran covered and bare is a 12 strand braid. those 12 lines are just twisted fibers. might be hard taking apart the 12 strand braid part though, but maybe it's doable.
Be happy to show you some of 'em Slowhike, I'm full of useless survival info; of course, it's only useless until you need it :D !
I have never carried floral wire but I do carry eight feet of small gauge stainless steel wire. Six feet in my pack and two feet in my PSK. It has gads of good uses, I have use it to fix a busted eyeglass hinge to a makeshift needle. It also makes a great snare for bigger than rabbit animals or animals that would chew thru a rope snare.
Actually with less stretch shock loads are higher...
Thats why climbing rope is so stretchy, so it doesn't snap your neck/spine/leg/arm/etc when you fall.
Right tool for the right job is always the best bet.
Perhaps I worded it wrong, but what I meant was that ropes with more stretch have a higher shock load rating. Not the shock to the load. Climbing ropes are engineered with stretch to combat rope breakage not cushion the person tethered to the end, although that is a benefit as well. All else being equal the rope with more stretch will have a higher shock load rating.
I think you are talking about shock to the load and I am talking about the shock load rating of the rope.
warbonnetguy
10-06-2007, 12:47
most climbing falls would not break a static rope of equal diameter, those things are rated to over 5000#, maybe more. any fall more than a couple feet on such non-stretch/static line would break your back. the main reason for the line being dynamic, is to cushion the fall as to keep the impact forces low enough so a human body can walk away. the rope is generally over engineered as far as tensile strength goes, although reduced impact forces of a dynamic rope do keep cams and other gear from pulling, as well as harnesses from breaking. harnesses have a much lower breaking strength than dynamic or static line, this is because the human body can only survive a fraction of the impact load the rope can. the amount of force required to break a 9mm rope, dynamic or static, would be many times higher than what it would take to kill a climber.
Perhaps I worded it wrong, but what I meant was that ropes with more stretch have a higher shock load rating. Not the shock to the load. Climbing ropes are engineered with stretch to combat rope breakage not cushion the person tethered to the end, although that is a benefit as well. All else being equal the rope with more stretch will have a higher shock load rating.
I think you are talking about shock to the load and I am talking about the shock load rating of the rope.
okay, back to the topic, obviously I was wrong in using a climbing rope as an example of what I was trying to describe.
There are two kinds of rope:
1) Dynamic (stretchy)
2) Static (not so stretchy)
550 cord is more dynamic than Spectra. All else being egual I would rather use 550 cord because of the built in stretch. It is an automatic shock absorber (energy dissipator) of sorts. So my Sil-Nyl tarps, snares and other things that benefit from this characteristic would be used with dynamic cord (550 cord) not static cord (Spectra). That isn't to say static ropes do not have their place, like for suspension ropes and sail sheets.
And, all else being equal, a dynamic rope can take more shock (impact, like a fall or a rabbit on the end of a snare) than a static one before it breaks. That was my point.
warbonnetguy
10-07-2007, 13:39
And, all else being equal, a dynamic rope can take more shock (impact, like a fall or a rabbit on the end of a snare) than a static one before it breaks. That was my point.
the dynamic properties of nylon will lessen the impact load, but this is dependent on how much line you have in play. 50 feet of nylon will have alot more stretch/shock absorption than say 5 feet, which would have 1/10th the stretch/shock absorption.
you aren't considering the large difference in breaking strength between nylon and spectra, and i don't know if the amount of stretch in 5-10 feet of nylon would offset the large increase in breaking strength gained by switching to a high tech fiber, even if it is static.
i'm just assuming the line in a snare isn't any more than 10 feet long. i suppose if the line was long enough, enough stretch could be had to drastically reduce the impact force and offset the strength gained from switching to spectra, but having to carry extra long snares would defeat the purpose, you could switch to spectra, increase the breaking strength, and still have a smaller and lighter line than the nylon.
i agree with you on using dynamic line for tarp guylines though. you hear everybody talking about getting no-stretch spectra guylines, and then adding giant rubberbands or surgical tubing so there is stretch to automatically tighten a sagging wet tarp. if dynamic line is used in the first place this is much less of a problem to begin with. just tighten the nylon so it stretches some. this also works better when the lines are a little longer and more stretch can be incorperated.
I see your points, but here are my experiences.
I used to be a government trapper (yes we still have those:)). I used snares that were 1/8" wire rope. these are used generally for anything Coyote sized and up, including feral pigs, dogs, bobcats etc. You almost always know what type of predator you are looking for based on area kills (which is why I got called), hair, scat and tracks located in the area of the snare. Generally if the predetor was a Coyote, ferrel dog or Bocat I used snares either on trail bottlenecks or fence lines. Feral Hogs were trapped in cage or pen traps built on site. If a Mountain Lion was doing the damage I used either a leg capture trap or, if I could find a recent kill, I would set up a sniper's nest and wait for her to return.
I don't know what the breaking strength if 1/8" aircraft cable is, but a mature Coyote can break it. Not always, and I could usually find him dead not far, but he could break it. We use a spring mechanism on the anchor end to help with this, and it does a good job, untill debris get stuck in it, or it get twisted sround something and can't operate properly; then the cable breaks. Most failures were at or around the anchor crimps (barrell swivels). However I have had two broken in the middle, one by a bobcat one by a coyote. I think they some how were able to get a loop in it and it broke at the newly weakened spot.
Now this is equipment designed for several thousand pounds beyond what they were intened to hold, and I have seen several failures. I have no idea what percentages, it's proly pretty low, I have set thousands of them.
So based on my experience, I use a cord for snares that has a springy characteristic; because in a survival situation I need all the percentages on my side I can get. I have never used Spectra for snares, I think it would be too stiff anyway, regardless of it's staic properties. Also, the weight of 550 cord is about the same for the same size spectra, .40-.45 oz/foot, it's a lot cheaper, easier to find and 550lb pound breaking strength is more tha enough for what I need in a survival cord; I don't need a 1000# cord to hang my 8lb bear bag after all.
I have caught hundreds (? I dunno, it's a bunch tho) of rabbits (mostly) and other small game in traps and snares in survival "situations". I know what works for me and what doesn't.
One of the Central Texas Ranches I worked on took about 30 days to ride fence. We rode fence twice a year and after every good rain we rode water gaps that were known to wash out. I had a lot of time to test my survival skills in this environment.
So that is my somewhat uneducated, but experienced, opinion on why I use 550 cord instead of Spectra.
FWIW, after looking at all the specs for sheathed double braid 1/16" and 1/8" Spectra I am going to try it out; maybe this time next year, I will have different take on which cord is best to use :D
Great insight and good commentary on the uses of different materials.
FWIW I envy you your experiences. Those are some neat things to have done.
And yes I'm not surprised at the cables breaking. I have run sled dogs in the past and even a single dog can break an 1/8" cable tie-out... Most tie-outs use at least 1/4", but thats getting thick and heavy.
A larger number of dogs may even go to 5/16"
Hey Rapt, I notice you are from the Belleville area. I went thru winter survival training with a guy from the Belleville area. He went to school there but I think he grew up somewhere else in Central Ontario tho. I would like to get to Ontario again, it's been a long time. I still have nightmares of those biting flies tho :)
Is there a Spectra, Dyneema, or Marlow, etc. line with paracord construction but performance approaching regular spectra line?
Take a look at Pulse line made by Yale Cordage, I think West Marine carries it.
Yeah nothing like the flies.... Blackflies... Little beggars... then there's horse and deer flies... Not to mention mosquitos.... LOL! Yep lotsa bugs.
Funny thing is everyone figures their bugs are terrible. much worse than everyone elses. No matter where you go...Even New Zealand, and Australia.
Was your winter training civvy or military?
Winter training was civilian. It was in Boundry Waters recreation area by lake Superior. Pretty cool place, although I have only seen it in the winter. I learned a lot of stuff that week, and after 11 years I might be able to hack together a set of snowshoes out of natural material if I had to. :)
When I was younger I wanted to be a firejumper or wilderness resue operator, maybe a backcountry park ranger. So I had quite a bit of training to that end, but life got in the way. No regrets tho, I am still having a great time :D