View Full Version : make your own sil.
Anybody get a good per yard weight on an effective finished product?
Jbo
That will depend on the starting weight of your fabric.... The ripstop I have is 1.9 oz material for $1.50 yard.... I'll be weight before and after results...
Just pondering if I could apply this to the top (uncoated) side of some nylon ripstop that already has a PE/DWR coating applied to the bottom. I wonder if the mineral spirits would disolve/ruin the PolyEurethane when they soak through?
Just finished applying one coat of a 4:1 mixture of MS and Silicone... I applied with a brush and throughly soaked fabric to the pitched tarp. While the black silicone added color to the slurry I do not believe I will get much color on the finished product.... Drying.... Tic Toc Tic Toc...
Lonely Raven
10-06-2010, 11:09
Just finished applying one coat of a 4:1 mixture of MS and Silicone... I applied with a brush and throughly soaked fabric to the pitched tarp. While the black silicone added color to the slurry I do not believe I will get much color on the finished product.... Drying.... Tic Toc Tic Toc...
PICS or it didn't happen! :D
Hmmmm.... Maybe I should have wiped the excess off... I saw some that did and some that didn't so I thought why not... LOL!!!! A little streaky with the black silicone.... PICS to come.... PROMISE!!!! :lol::lol:
Well after curing all day here are my observation....
1) 4:1 ratio made a very workable slurry that I applied with a brush...
2) I did not wipe excess off, in hindsight I should have and it would have resulted in a better looking end product...
3) Looks "Brushed" due to not wiping excess off..
4) My scientific water bottle test after 6 hours of curing.... WOW!!!! Beads and run off like crazy.... Can't wait to give it a real test...
5) Used plastic bottle with about 25 pennies in it to mix.... WORKED GREAT!!!
I think I'll try this again but next time I'll apply with a sponge and wipe excess off as I'm going... There was one small spot where I did wipe excess off and it looks great and seems to have the same water resistance as the rest of the tarp...
Gonna leave it up overnight to fully cure then pack her up for the weekend...
Someone mentioned earlier the potential for brick sealant.
If you google "siloxane" that's pretty much what it is, and its a combination of oxygen molecules and silicone. It would be worth trying a tarp with something like that, it'd be far cleaner and less messy to apply and could be brushed on.
cosmicmiami
10-14-2010, 17:36
A friend suggested denatured alcohol as the solvent in this process. Was that mentioned? Seems like it would dry quicker. Tried this on my new food bag and expected some odor and oily residue from the mineral spirits but that wasn't the case at all.
MacEntyre
10-14-2010, 19:17
...expected some odor and oily residue ...but that wasn't the case at all.
That's because denatured alcohol (ethanol) and mineral spirits (petroleum distillates) are totally different things.
Denatured alcohol might be worth a try but only with the dunk and squeeze method. Would probably evaporate to fast for brushing on.
I think that even when we use mineral spirits the silicone caulk doesn't actually dissolve into it. I believe what we're really doing is making an emulsion, which is why thorough mixing is key. Think salad dressing...oil and vinegar don't mix but but you can make an emulsion from the two in order to keep them from separating for a little while.
I there a chemical engineer in the house...MacEntyre?
MacEntyre
10-15-2010, 04:14
I think you are correct, Knotty, because silicon we use for waterproofing is really a silicon polymer called Polydimethylsiloxane (PDMS) or dimenthicone, an inert, non toxic, non flammable substance with unusual flow properties. It's used everywhere... silly putty, caulk, adhesives, polyurethanes, shampoo, food, contact lenses.
Aqueous solvents, like alcohol, do not dissolve or diffuse into silicon polymer. Organic solvents don't dissolve silicon polymers, but they do diffuse into it and make it swell, some to a greater extent than others. So, we are making a slurry, as you said, but solvents that diffuse into the silicon will take longer to evaporate out. Mineral spirits are not among the organic solvents that swell PDMS a lot.
Mac - You're the man. That's one solid answer. Thanks.
I think you are correct, Knotty, because silicon we use for waterproofing is really a silicon polymer called Polydimethylsiloxane (PDMS) or dimenthicone, an inert, non toxic, non flammable substance with unusual flow properties. It's used everywhere... silly putty, caulk, adhesives, polyurethanes, shampoo, food, contact lenses.
Aqueous solvents, like alcohol, do not dissolve or diffuse into silicon polymer. Organic solvents don't dissolve silicon polymers, but they do diffuse into it and make it swell, some to a greater extent than others. So, we are making a slurry, as you said, but solvents that diffuse into the silicon will take longer to evaporate out. Mineral spirits are not among the organic solvents that swell PDMS a lot.
Now that is an answer !
very informative, thanks
cosmicmiami
10-19-2010, 07:57
That's because denatured alcohol (ethanol) and mineral spirits (petroleum distillates) are totally different things.
I'm familiar with the differences between the two, polar solvent vs. hydrocarbon. One gets 3% foam the other 6% :shades:
MacEntyre
10-19-2010, 08:00
So, cosmicmiami, did you use denatured alcohol or mineral spirits? :confused:
cosmicmiami
10-19-2010, 08:09
I think you are correct, Knotty, because silicon we use for waterproofing is really a silicon polymer called Polydimethylsiloxane (PDMS) or dimenthicone, an inert, non toxic, non flammable substance with unusual flow properties. It's used everywhere... silly putty, caulk, adhesives, polyurethanes, shampoo, food, contact lenses.
Aqueous solvents, like alcohol, do not dissolve or diffuse into silicon polymer. Organic solvents don't dissolve silicon polymers, but they do diffuse into it and make it swell, some to a greater extent than others. So, we are making a slurry, as you said, but solvents that diffuse into the silicon will take longer to evaporate out. Mineral spirits are not among the organic solvents that swell PDMS a lot.
For a minute I thought I was watching BTTF and listening to Dr. Emmett Brown. :laugh:
I'll try the denatured on a small patch and see what happens.
cosmicmiami
10-19-2010, 08:59
So, cosmicmiami, did you use denatured alcohol or mineral spirits? :confused:
I used spirits first. Worked pretty well. Need to go back and do the seams.
harrell79cj5
10-21-2010, 15:45
Anybody that did this to a tarp or some other gear a while back have any report on longevity of the treatment?
Rain Man
10-22-2010, 09:59
It's used everywhere... silly putty, caulk, adhesives, polyurethanes, shampoo, food, contact lenses.
Okay, you've got my interest piqued!!! How do I make some DIY contact lenses with this stuff?! I could save tons in the long run, I bet!
:lol:
Rain Man
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MacEntyre
10-22-2010, 10:33
I just had breakfast with a friend who sells chemicals, including various silicone based products. His company anticipates that one day silicones will be declared a risk because of bioaccumulation. That perspective would say that those of us carrying into the woods on our tarps, where it sloughs off and goes into the environment, will be polluting! He says there is no alternative to silicone.
He told me of one application that I did not know about... GasX! It's straight PDMS!
Lonely Raven
10-22-2010, 11:21
Wait, the anti-fart stuff is silicon! LOL
MacEntyre
10-22-2010, 16:03
Wait, the anti-fart stuff is silicon! LOL
My friend insists on calling it silicone, not silicon... the former is an organic molecule, and latter is an element.
Running Feather
10-25-2010, 01:24
Polydimethylsiloxane is a breakfast cereal
(http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Polydimethylsiloxane)
Just to add my experience to those of others, I mixed 100% silicone in a big tube from our local home center with denatured alcohol. The alcohol didn't melt it. So I used gasoline, which I had been trying to avoid--it worked well, giving me a snot-like mixture that I was able to brush on the tarp seams easily. It's out there drying now--and after that I'll flip it and hit the ridgeline on the inner side with another layer. I haven't read this whole thread, but I gather that mineral spirits is better than gasoline as it's less malodorous. Anyway, I was skeptical, and I had great results.
KC7FYS
Glad it's working for you but using gasoline is way too dangerous. Mineral spirits is the way to go.
Oh? I usually just light up a cigarette then mix it up in a punchbowl....
Gas is dangerous. I got myself a five dollar can of mineral spirits. Life's too short to go out that way. And to smell like gas.
canoebie
11-08-2010, 17:40
Oh? I usually just light up a cigarette then mix it up in a punchbowl....
Gas is dangerous. I got myself a five dollar can of mineral spirits. Life's too short to go out that way. And to smell like gas.
Live long and prosper! :rolleyes: I am glad you survived. Definitely dangerous.
I have a bunch of camo nylon partially converted to a rectangular tarp and then need to treat. Got the material from Scott Littlefield. Very pleased with it. Mineral spirits and 5 to 1 ratio to the silicone. I assume that ratio should be by volume.
I also have a bunch of tents (sigh, yes it is true) primarily Eureka Timberline 4, and have treated them regularly with aersol spray. Could this mixture go into a compression pump type sprayer and be applied? Most of my clients use tents, though some have considered hanging.
Forgive me if I missed these things here somewhere. Been a while since I have backtracked through this thread.
If memory serves me right it's 5:1 by weight.
MacEntyre
11-10-2010, 17:27
The specific gravity of each is close enough that a ratio by either weight or volume will work. Try 4:1 and then add the last bit of solvent slowly, until you get the emulsion consistency that you want for ease of application.
Rain Man
11-11-2010, 09:55
Mineral spirits and 5 to 1 ratio to the silicone. I assume that ratio should be by volume.
My recollection is that it's by weight. I even used my digital postal scale to get the right ratio.
Rain Man
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JohnOscat
01-05-2011, 08:45
Loving this thread! Lots of great info, and I'm definitely going to try this soon. I decided to make a tarp for the upcoming backpacking season, and this looks like the way to go. I have a few (of course, untested) suggestions to possibly make the whole experience easier.
when mixing the solution you can make an easy stirring stick. just use a dowel or stick of some sort that you can chuck in a drill, and attach a few zip ties to the end so that the ends of them poke out in all directions. this makes an excellent, flexible stirring attachment for your drill that costs next to nothing. Score one more for zip-ties!!
For those of you who soak the material in the silicone solution I would suggest that you transfer the solution into a gallon ziploc bag, then add the material, seal, and you can do all the soaking, kneading, squishing, and squeezing that seems to be done here with the immersion method, but with less mess.
I just thought that I should share these ideas so they can be used before I get around to making my own tarp, because who knows when that will be...
JohnSawyer
01-05-2011, 10:42
I love the ziplock idea! That solution would require less solvent/sil material, too, as you could massage it into everything.
Time to take my DIY DWR tarp to the next level!
This is a great thread but no one has given us a long term review yet. It would be great to read some field reports from the folks who have treated and used their tarps over the past several years.
This is a great thread but no one has given us a long term review yet. It would be great to read some field reports from the folks who have treated and used their tarps over the past several years.
I don't believe any of the tarps are years old yet. The one I made last spring, using the dunk and squeeze method, is working fine.
http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=327&pictureid=2580
Terry_Dodson
01-05-2011, 16:33
Knotty what is that elbow piece on the stand in your pic?
Knotty what is that elbow piece on the stand in your pic?
They're brackets from a hammock stand kit which isn't available anymore. Unfortunately.
I just tried this trick out last night with decent success for a first crack. I went 3:1 by volume on the mix, soaked for about 2 hours with lots of agitation and shaking (just did a little 8" square in a mason jar), only one treatment. It is waterproof under the faucet except for one or two small pinholes. If I force the water through under pressure, I get a more noticeable flow. I'm nearly certain both of those flaws are caused by the air bubbles that get in to the solution while mixing. I'm going to rig up a vacuum vessel and pull it down to ~1/4 atmospheric pressure and see if I can draw the bubbles out and get a more repeatable result. I'm also going to experiment with a slightly thinner mix, as that wouldn't hold on to the bubbles quite so stubbornly.
Using a vacuum could also potentially make it possible to treat fabrics that are more prone to holding on to air than ripstop. I'm also going to come up with a PVC roller arrangement to squeeze off the excess.
Anybody have any favorite sources for dirt cheap 1.1oz nylon? I'm having trouble finding it locally under $7/yard and on the internet, the best price I've found is about $4/yard on eBay.
-Smalls
http://www.backwoodsdaydreamer.com/apps/webstore/
The olive green fabric is really nice and a steal at that price.
JohnSawyer
01-06-2011, 15:45
They're brackets from a hammock stand kit which isn't available anymore. Unfortunately.
I was wondering about those nice brackets myself. I might just have to break out the welder and make a couple of sets... Do you have the dimensions and angle?
http://www.backwoodsdaydreamer.com/apps/webstore/
The olive green fabric is really nice and a steal at that price.
X2 on the fabric. I have a single hammock made from it, and it is awesome!
John
JohnOscat
01-07-2011, 00:16
have we come to any conclusion as to which is the best non-immersion method to apply the solution? Sponge, brush, rag, etc? Does it make any difference? I'm thinking I'd like to sew my tarp and then wipe the silicon onto it, since there seems to be very little difference in the effectiveness of dunking or brushing, but I'm wondering about how to brush it on.
I was wondering about those nice brackets myself. I might just have to break out the welder and make a couple of sets... Do you have the dimensions and angle?
Buried in snow right now. but I'm guessing it's about 45 degrees.
have we come to any conclusion as to which is the best non-immersion method to apply the solution? Sponge, brush, rag, etc? Does it make any difference? I'm thinking I'd like to sew my tarp and then wipe the silicon onto it, since there seems to be very little difference in the effectiveness of dunking or brushing, but I'm wondering about how to brush it on.
I'm probably biased but I have a hard time imagining the brushing method being as effective as dunking. I believe dunking with lots of squeezing and shifting of the material within the solution will better penetrate the threads and produce a result that's closer to commercial silnylon. Just my opinion and am always willing to change it based on additional info. :)
JohnSawyer
01-07-2011, 15:12
I'm probably biased but I have a hard time imagining the brushing method being as effective as dunking. I believe dunking with lots of squeezing and shifting of the material within the solution will better penetrate the threads and produce a result that's closer to commercial silnylon. Just my opinion and am always willing to change it based on additional info. :)
I guess the only question is how well the silicone dissolves in the thinner. If it's not really dissolving, but just being suspended (like flour in water) then the silicone won't travel through one layer of fabric to get to another. If the silicone is really dissolving, or at least going to a small enough particle size that it's effectively dissolved, then as long as the fabric is fully wet, it may not make much of a difference. I can see where the immersion/massage method might break up bubbles that could occur in the gaps between the weave, causing leakage later.
I guess time will tell. Personally, once the weather dries up a bit, I'm going to buy some self-leveling silicone at my local auto-parts store, add mineral spirits and give the "immersion in a bag" method a try.
Realistically, I cannot report out on results as the tarp (DWR + sprayed with silicone "waterproofing" spray) doesn't leak today in our Southern california storms... we just don't get a serious downpour very often.
John
John - Your analysis is right on. Since the silicone doesn't truly dissolve into the mineral spirits the silicone probably can't soak thru multiple layers of fabric. It probably gets filtered out at some point. Realizing this I did my dunk and squeeze in a 5 gallon bucket. This gave me the room needed to pull the fabric in and out a lot so it all got touched by the raw mix.
Excellent results on my third attempt. The trick I used was to mix a batch with a 3:1 volume ratio, which makes it much too thick. After stirring, if you do it in a clear vessel you'll notice a very large amount of air suspended in the solution as very small bubbles.
The thinner the mix, the less air is suspended, and the smaller the remaining bubbles will be. I gradually added more mineral spirits while mixing fairly sparingly. Once the bubbles were completely gone, I let the mix sit for about 24 hours, and a good bit of the mineral spirits rose to the surface. I poured off the excess, dunked the nylon, and removed the excess with a squeeze, then a sponge. A single treatment made it completely waterproof, even under pressure.
I believe those suspended bubbles are the most common cause of failure. There's no real way to mix the stuff without creating them, and if they're still there when the nylon is introduced, you're apt to get pin holes where ever a bubble adheres to the fabric.
-Smalls
Update anyone, Im very interested in this thread.
JohnSawyer
01-14-2011, 11:15
Excellent results on my third attempt. The trick I used was to mix a batch with a 3:1 volume ratio, which makes it much too thick. After stirring, if you do it in a clear vessel you'll notice a very large amount of air suspended in the solution as very small bubbles.
The thinner the mix, the less air is suspended, and the smaller the remaining bubbles will be. I gradually added more mineral spirits while mixing fairly sparingly. Once the bubbles were completely gone, I let the mix sit for about 24 hours, and a good bit of the mineral spirits rose to the surface. I poured off the excess, dunked the nylon, and removed the excess with a squeeze, then a sponge. A single treatment made it completely waterproof, even under pressure.
-Smalls
I went to my local auto-parts store and bought a tube of Self-levelling silicone. I broke out a canning jar and mixed 4:1 with mineral spirits, sealed it up, and let it sit for a week to see if it would come out of suspension.
The first thing I noticed is this stuff, being liquid, mixed much easier than prior attempts with normal silicone caulking. After 5 days, it's still a uniform liquid. Flowable silicone, at least, does appear to fully dissolve in mineral spirits.
John
GvilleDave
01-14-2011, 11:44
Where in the auto parts store is self leveling silicon? How does it perform as a waterproofer compared to the sil made from caulking?
JohnSawyer
01-14-2011, 11:47
I found it in a small tube next to the various colors of RTV... It's designed to seal car-windows and flow into voids to prevent leaks...
People have been using it to seam-seal tarps, thought I'd give it a try. I'm not sure if anybody else has thinned this down for tarp application yet. It'll be a few weeks before I can get my tarp done, I think.
That makes me think: Can I thin down Red or Blue RTV? I wonder what that would look like on a silver tarp... hmmmmmmm....
I wouldn't use RTV. It tends to peal off. I used it thinned down to seal the inside of a soft ice chest bag. I had to give it a good thick coat cause the thin coat I started with began to peal off as soon as it was dry.
I wouldn't use RTV. It tends to peal off. I used it thinned down to seal the inside of a soft ice chest bag. I had to give it a good thick coat cause the thin coat I started with began to peal off as soon as it was dry.
The methods talked about here are different than the surface coating you used on the ice chest. Our goal is to get the silicone to impregnate the threads of the material and not just sit on the surface.
I imagine that all consumer silicones are RTV (room temperature vulcanization) since we're not applying heat to turn the product from liquid to solid.
Pipsissewa
02-19-2011, 13:31
I just had breakfast with a friend who sells chemicals, including various silicone based products. He told me of one application that I did not know about... GasX! It's straight PDMS!
So has anyone tried GasX as MacEntyre suggests?
MacEntyre
02-19-2011, 17:45
So has anyone tried GasX as MacEntyre suggests?
It's got to be the most expensive source of "Simethicone" available... manufactured using pharmaceutical GMP standards by Novartis. However, I suppose you could carry a couple of tablets in your backpack, and mix it with denatured alcohol to have a small amount for a field expedient patch.
harrell79cj5
02-24-2011, 12:51
I am about to do my first DIY Sil project tomorrow. I started a thread to tell about it http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php?p=415747#post415747
I will update how it goes on there. I plan to use the 100% silicone and oderless mineral spirits....
warbonnetguy
02-24-2011, 15:25
If the fabric isn't treated with dwr, it should be pretty absorbent. I'm betting a thin enough mix could be brushed on and still fully absorb. You'd might want to hit both sides, but I bet that would do the trick. It gets mashed in even more as you're trying to wipe off the excess.
harrell79cj5
02-24-2011, 15:38
Yeah, that is kinda my plan, to brush on both sides. The fabric doesn't seem to have any kind of coating, in fact BWDD states it as not downproof, so most likely pretty absorbent.
If the fabric isn't treated with dwr, it should be pretty absorbent. I'm betting a thin enough mix could be brushed on and still fully absorb. You'd might want to hit both sides, but I bet that would do the trick. It gets mashed in even more as you're trying to wipe off the excess.
If a fabric has a coating(for fire resistance or dwr) do you then have to wash it first or will it still bond to the fabric?
warbonnetguy
02-24-2011, 19:40
i don't know, the fabric i used was non-calendared without dwr
JohnSawyer
02-24-2011, 20:41
I did a patch of DWR, it soaked up the solution nicely...
This would be a great cottage industery business service! Does the cost of buying non silnylon and coating it actually pan out, better than just purchasing silnylon from the start? Mind you, I have my own camo ripstop waiting to be finished and DIY sealed.
warbonnetguy
02-25-2011, 11:53
i think doing it this way would be more expensive by far if you factored the treatment into the cost along with everything else.
harrell79cj5
02-25-2011, 12:45
I updated my thread on my tarp!
http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php?p=416475#post416475
Waiting for it to dry....probably be tomorrow before I test it out!
harrell79cj5
02-25-2011, 12:47
I agree with you warbonnetguy, if you are doing this just for cost, just buy silnylon! But if you want a camo tarp, or you just like doing this kind of stuff, its not too bad to do!
Being able to make a camo tarp is what motivated me. It was a fun project and I'm happy with the results.
harrell79cj5
02-25-2011, 18:26
I just got through testing my tarp! It was already dry, which was faster than I expected! it works perfectly!! I put the hose on a spray setting and even with pressure on full at 1 ft away still not even a mist came through! Very pleased with all of it! i will get a finished weight as soon as it dries.
harrell79cj5
02-26-2011, 08:41
Weight of the tarp went from 19 oz to 25 oz after application.
Wise Old Owl
05-03-2011, 21:03
I've been thinking about doing this too... Glad to see someone made the first plunge...
From my point of view using something that dries faster is NOT an advantage. The idea I would think is to get as much penetration as possible rather than coating the surface.
My idea was to make a big enough pot to soak the fabric in all at once. Even leave it soak for some time. My experience with dying was that it takes a fair bit of time for full wetting. So I figured the same here...
Then I was thinking of hanging it out on the clothesline to wipe down and let dry.
Also considered doing a very thin mix and multiple applications.
I find fault with this, the professional stuff is deep and on one side. I suspect a squeegee like device.
Roadrunnr72
05-04-2011, 07:23
When I made my sil, I used a sponge/foam type brush. It seemed like it helped get the sil into the material, instead of just on it. I don't think multiple apps would help, once the first drys the second will not absorb, it would just stick to the outside and may peel off. Now if you coat it once then repeat quickly, before it drys completly, it may help. As long as you get a good first application, a second should not be needed.
I find fault with this, the professional stuff is deep and on one side. I suspect a squeegee like device.
I was under the impression the silicon coating on silnylon was extremely thin, and essentially covered both sides: filling the interthread holes and coating the fibers rather than a layer built up on the fabric. Maybe you are thinking of the urethane coated nylons, which are usually thick and on one side only.
harrell79cj5
05-04-2011, 13:32
When I made my sil, I used a sponge/foam type brush. It seemed like it helped get the sil into the material, instead of just on it. I don't think multiple apps would help, once the first drys the second will not absorb, it would just stick to the outside and may peel off. Now if you coat it once then repeat quickly, before it drys completly, it may help. As long as you get a good first application, a second should not be needed.
I agree the sponge brush worked great for me!
mcdmcdmcd
05-20-2011, 18:00
Hi, great information in here. I have only just joined and wish I had have found it a few months ago. I have been mucking around with making a tarp from Ripstop and waterproofed it with a 1:5 ratio plumbers silicon:mineral spirits. The tarp is 10 * 10 and I soaked it, post sewing, in a tub with a lid for about 4 hours giving it a squeeze every so often. I hung it up for about a week and despite a few runs it come out really well and it didn't leak even when I had the hose on it, full force from 12 inches away. Even the webbing which I sewed down the ridge line didn't leak or become wetted. This tarp was a prototype for a big one I want to make: 20*20. In terms of mixing the solution I just added the spirits very slowly and mixed by hand: like making mayonnaise. No worries at all, took 10 minutes to mix up a litre or so. Weight isn't too much of an issue so I was pretty heavy handed and used a standard tube of silicon, but a lot remained on the inside of the container. I got my ripstop at a bargain price...errr...I'm converting it from metric....about $1.80 US per yard, 60 inch wide. So yeah a great cheap and pretty light weight tarp. Next: the big one.
DemostiX
05-21-2011, 12:46
I'll register that a commercial mfg would take measures to control, including by recapture, the VOCs. Even in China.
With apologies for not going through all pages to discover if that concern has been registered, and if someone is quickly squeegiing the wet fabric.
Tales of failure:
(Hey, we can't all have success.)
Made a big tarp out of what is ripstop nylon, cheap Walmart stuff.
Figure I'll probably cut the tarp down later, but I'm tall (6'4), and I made my hammock longer, so I went with 15x10, before hemming. Enough room to shelter a hammock and have a camp on a rainy day. And if it's too big, I'll recut it. Making a tarp smaller is easy. Making a tarp larger is not. :)
First attempt: Big bucket, some mineral oil, tube of silicon, 5 gallon bucket. Dunked the tarp. Pitched it to dry. It failed. Felt very much like nylon still. Water held in it quickly beaded up on the opposite side.
Analysis: Probably too little silicon.
Second attempt: Big bucket, some more mineral spirit, two tubes. Mixed to the consistency of runny snot. Tarp is more than a little... rubbery now. Water beads on the other side slowly. Under a shower head, it mists where the shower head hits it.
Grrr.
I think the second failure was due to it being a hair too thin of a mixture, and dunking it. I got too many bubbles in the mixture.
I'll try a third attempt later, but this time, I'm going to premix the solution, pour it back into the can, pitch the tarp, pour a little of the solution back out into a clean can, and paint the tarp, section by section, pouring fresh solution out of the can when I need to.
Any suggestions welcomed.
I'm kind of curious if I could possibly be spoiling the tarp by waterproofing it multiple times. I can't see how. Any material is going to remelt(? that can't be the right term) the silicon in the tarp, then deposit some more.
Dasunt, I think you are using too thin a mixture. Measurements really come into play on this type of project. Too thin it won't work and too thick it will be hard to apply a thin coat.
Rain Man
05-27-2011, 10:58
Any suggestions welcomed.
I use a 4:1 ratio of mineral spirits to clear silicone. You can go by volume or by weight. Precision is not critical. I do wipe off any excess and let dry. I repeat the whole process two or three times, on both sides of the fabric. So far, this has worked for me on stuff sacks and backpacks. Have not done an entire tarp yet.
Rain Man
.
mcdmcdmcd
05-27-2011, 17:45
Yes it does seem that the ratio is really important. I did trials on small sections of ripstop and even applied the silicon neat using a sponge roller. Interestingly this wasn't as impermeable as the 1:5 silicon:mineral spirits mix. To test it I made a balloon of water with the material and applied force until water would come through. My assumption is that the stronger the solution the less penetration into the pores of the fabric. The soaking method seemed to work well for me but when I do the big tarp I am going to apply the silicon pre sewing as I will be using 20 ft strips of rip stop. I was going to brush the solution on both sides and then put it into a sealed plastic bag and give a squeeze every so often. After a few hours I was then going to pull it between 2 pieces of sponge the width of the material to give a nice even finish, and then hang it up to cure for a week. The next bit I'm unsure of and I would appreciate your thoughts: I was going to to use neat silicon to glue the strips together and also glue the webbing into position. I will then sew the webbing as well. However I an wondering how strong the glue line would be if I overlapped the silnylon strips say 4 inches. Would I need to sew these?
Roadrunnr72
05-27-2011, 20:28
Here is the link (http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=30721)to my thread on DIY tarp and SIL. You need to go to post 23 to get to the sil.
If I'm experimenting on a small sheet first, if I take the rest of the solution and put it in an empty mineral spirits can and close it tight, should I have any problem using it for the full tarp a few days later if I remember to stir it again?
JohnSawyer
05-28-2011, 00:22
If I'm experimenting on a small sheet first, if I take the rest of the solution and put it in an empty mineral spirits can and close it tight, should I have any problem using it for the full tarp a few days later if I remember to stir it again?
I tried this (for giggles) and it was ok for a few days. Eventually a layer will cure. You'll need to puncture it to get to the rest of the mix...
vitamaltz
05-28-2011, 05:19
If I'm experimenting on a small sheet first, if I take the rest of the solution and put it in an empty mineral spirits can and close it tight, should I have any problem using it for the full tarp a few days later if I remember to stir it again?
I tried this too, in an old grapefruit juice container. It was mixed 1:5, filled to the top, and the lid screwed on tight. It had cured solid within a few hours. I did leave it outside in partial sun. I think that had something to do with it.
gargoyle
05-28-2011, 06:30
Tales of failure:
but I'm tall (6'4), and I made my hammock longer, so I went with 15x10, before hemming.
If the 15' is your ridgeline, it will/can be long enough to interfer with your hammock suspension. (In most cases)
I'm 6-4 and find a 10' hammock fine for comfort. Yes bigger longer hammocks do allow for a flatter lay, but they add to the bulk of the pack. Double-edged sword thing. Longer the hammock, the longer your tarp needs to be.
10' hammock with a 101" ridgeline is fine for most. The same basic dimensions are in many popular vendor hammocks.
First attempt: Big bucket, some mineral oil, tube of silicon,
I'm hoping thats a typo..mineral oil and MINERAL SPIRITS are two different things. Use mineral spirits. (I see later in your post you said mineral spirits, so I just wanted to clarify
.... be spoiling the tarp by waterproofing it multiple times. I can't see how. Any material is going to remelt(? that can't be the right term) the silicon in the tarp, then deposit some more.
I think it may add a few ounces to the tarp. Each time you dunk/coat/paint the solution on your leaving a thin layer of silicone behind once the mineral spirits evaporate.
mcdmcdmcd
05-28-2011, 18:31
Here is the link (http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=30721)to my thread on DIY tarp and SIL. You need to go to post 23 to get to the sil.
Really nice tarp. Sorry but I have to ask what is probably a silly question. In your link you say....from memory...something about a cat? Is this curve in the bottom edge of the tarp? To stop flapping in the wind?
jspate61
06-03-2011, 09:52
Hey Gang,
I did a short video on this subject. I apologize for some of the loose language and the shockingly poor video quality. What can I say, I'm just a cheap *******.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UTZPllgqSc
Cheers
...something about a cat? Is this curve in the bottom edge of the tarp? To stop flapping in the wind?
Looks like this didn't get answered yet, so I'll jump on it. A 'cat cut' is a catenary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catenary) curve at the edges of the tarp. Yep, it's to reduce flapping and wrinkling at the edges.
Hey Gang,
I did a short video on this subject. I apologize for some of the loose language and the shockingly poor video quality. What can I say, I'm just a cheap *******.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UTZPllgqSc
Cheers
Dude I am laughing so hard right now I only got to playing with it part.
As for the curve , it has been addressed so many times before a simple search and an answer could be found.
Zentoast
06-22-2011, 12:23
Hi, Guys!
I read practically every post in this thread and decided that I needed to go for it. I made a cat tarp last summer out of Joann Fabrics ripstop. I did this to save time and weight--I could not get sil here in the Valley. So, I used the 'ol Wally World orange can silicone spray. Works well...but. It will saturate, e.g. I was alpine camping this weekend at 8K ft, and it snowed on us 3" (on June 19!). I woke up soaked. I didn't want to resew a whole new tarp out of sil, so I tried this method. I've had PERFECT success using the following method:
Materials:
Scale
2, 3" foam/sponge brushs
1 tube clear, GE silicone caulk
3.5 liters of Mineral Spirits (I used a 3rd of this, but I intend to use on other projects)
Clean 1 gallon can or coffee can (I used a plastic Folgers (YUCK) coffee can I got from a buddy and cut a whole in the lid to keep the slurry from spitting all over the place--worked well)
Drill
Mixer rod
Process:
A) I used 3:1 by weight. I was not EXACT, but I did use a scale and got within a fraction of this ratio. Technically, I mixed two batches--one for each side separately as I needed them, so the slurry wouldn't set up on me. I used 39 fl oz. of mineral spirits to 13 oz of silicone. This left a bit left over at the end of each side, which I disposed of and started fresh. You don't want to run out half way through a side...do your best to keep a wet edge. I'd recommend applying when it's coooool outside.
B) Pitch your tarp as taught as you normally would. Mix your concoction thoroughly using your mixer. Pause and check that all of the silicone is "dissolved." It'll work into a milky color. If there are lots of bubbles, use a stir stick to minimize them with a slow stir. I'd let it rest for a minute or two. Don't wait too long, or your mix will begin to set up.
C) Use one of the sponge brushes and begin to apply to the first side. Apply to the non-glossy, flat-finish side. It is porous and will adhere well. The Joanne Fabrics ripstop has a shiny and flat side...You want to liberal, but do NOT slop it on. Find the harmony between too little and too much. If you're getting runs, you have too much; if you see dry fabric, you have too little. I ran a wet edge horizontally about two brush widths all the day down along the ridge line. I worked in every single dry spot I thought I saw. Anywhere I saw excess buildup, I smoothed out with the brush. Once I finished the first pass, I did a quick, dry back-brush over what I just painted. I did NOT double coat. I back-brushed... I used this process all the way until the first side was covered. I did not wipe off any excess.
D) Dispose of leftovers--lose those chunks, debris, and coagulated tidbits. You've done this much work; don't chince now!
E) Grab your new brush. By this time, the silicone has begun to set up in your first brush. Ditch it. It's worth the 70 cents to get the penetration you need.
F) Repeat step C above.
G) Depending on how humid it is where you live, give it a good 12-48 hours to cure. I live in sierra desert, so 12 hours was plenty.
H) Give it the mouth test first. Grab a section and try to suck air through it. Don't suck your brains through your nose though, 'cause it'll be tough!
I) Giver 'er the 'ol hose test. I don't buy the piddly "rain shower" setting from the hose. Blast away on jet stream from a close distance. Do you really want to wake up wet, alone, out in the bush? You get wet, you get cold; you get cold, you die.
J) Enjoy, brag, and celebrate your new, DIY silnylon!
SEE MY VIDEO TEST (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-csMQtfB68): Clearly, if there was ANYthing coming through this, the lens would have misted up, be spattered, etc. you be the judge!
Cheers, guys. And thanks for all your discussion. I figured I'd do my part to contribute!
burleyolebear
07-06-2011, 18:38
Awesome thread! Although I wish I had read it before I made my DIY Silnylon 10x12 tarp. I would have had a much better process to get through and I would have know NOT to use the "Low Odor" spirits and use the regular spirits. It turned out great and it is VERY dry underneath. My wife was excited when it left her sewing room...
So 'white gas' is 'naphtha'.........correct??
White gas is a common name for two flammable substances. In its most common modern usage, it is used as a generic name for camp stove and lantern fuel, usually naphtha -wikipedia
JohnSawyer
07-10-2011, 02:27
Broke down and sil'd my first DIY tarp I made over a year ago from Wally-world ripstop. (ok, I THOUGHT it was sil way back then...) We don't get much rain here... :rolleyes:
1qt mineral spirits, 1/2 a tube of 100% silicone, mixed it in a coffee can with the drill/zip tie trick, used the "dunk and knead" method for about 20 minutes, and it's out in the backyard as of about 5pm Sat.
The surface looked a little gloppy (no big glops, just uneven, more orange-peel) so I took a paper towel, wet it with a little leftover goo from the coffee can, and wiped both the inside and outsides down. I'm hoping when it dries, it will be less translucent...
Great thread!
John
and it's out in the backyard as of about 5pm Sat.
So how did it turn out? How long did it take to dry??
I just made some 'goo' for seam sealer, and it was a lot easier than I would have expected, gonna try a whole tarp pretty soon
JohnSawyer
07-12-2011, 18:15
my 8x10 tarp absorbed everything, so I spent some time squishing, rolling, and re rolling it up to ensure even coverage. It dried kind of blotchy, and after 24 hours, it was really dry. (it's been hot, with low humidity)
I took a hose to it, and sprayed it full-force. After a minute or so I checked, and not a drop of water was on the inside of the tarp.
This process added about 3-4 oz to the tarp, according to my scale.
If I had to do this again, I'd use some patterned (read: CAMO) fabric, as it did turn out blotchy. The rolled hem around the perimiter really darkened up, and you can see the trapped fabric edge now. -- not a big deal anyway...
John
Skeetrock
08-04-2011, 01:01
I accidentally got the white silicone instead of clear silicone. My fabric is a light grey color (dull). Will the silicone flake because of the white in it (dont know if that makes any sense or not) or will it just make it look white-ish? The silicone is 100% silicone, just white instead of clear.
JohnSawyer
08-04-2011, 02:03
An earlier video indicated that you wouldn't like the results.... I have a feeling it's more about the uneven nature of the process that would leave your tarp with an odd pattern, but having NOT tried it...
My tarp is a sharkskin gray. Post-Sil, it's a mottled, darker gray...
Skeetrock
08-04-2011, 10:23
As long as it doesn't flake off I don't mind the white silicone hindering my grey tarp color. The guy in the video was using a camo tarp. The white might've been pretty undesirable for that, hopefully thats all there is to it...
JohnSawyer
08-04-2011, 11:29
As long as it doesn't flake off I don't mind the white silicone hindering my grey tarp color. The guy in the video was using a camo tarp. The white might've been pretty undesirable for that, hopefully thats all there is to it...
PM him and ask...
gargoyle
08-04-2011, 15:21
I accidentally got the white silicone instead of clear silicone. My fabric is a light grey color (dull). Will the silicone flake because of the white in it (dont know if that makes any sense or not) or will it just make it look white-ish? The silicone is 100% silicone, just white instead of clear.
It'll be a light color/tint (milky) white and will dry as such. No flaking if your dilluted correctly. Grey is fine too. I havent played with black yet.
Clear is the best choice.
kitesurfer
08-22-2011, 07:48
i finally got around to testing my 10x10 this weekend. i'vbe had it made and sil'ed for a while now but never tested. with a thunder buster approaching, i strung it up. i hit it good with the hose an no apparent leaks. water beaded and ran off like rain-x. never rained eihter :( still having not used it camping, i'm still concerned. anyone ever made one aind si'l'd correctly only to find that it didn't work later?
Lonely Raven
08-25-2011, 08:03
i finally got around to testing my 10x10 this weekend. i'vbe had it made and sil'ed for a while now but never tested. with a thunder buster approaching, i strung it up. i hit it good with the hose an no apparent leaks. water beaded and ran off like rain-x. never rained eihter :( still having not used it camping, i'm still concerned. anyone ever made one aind si'l'd correctly only to find that it didn't work later?
Sounds like it should work fine in the field. Those hose test is pretty good if you hit the material pretty hard, especially the ridgeline seam.
Do you have photos? How much did the weight go up after the sil application?
stinkypete
08-31-2011, 01:12
I hope this works for people long term. I build skin on frame kayaks. The fabric is a ballistic nylon. In all the experiments I've seen the silicone always sluffs off when it gets really wet. Perhaps you folks are getting better saturation. I'd like to see the long term results with this diy
StrawHat
09-02-2011, 12:18
Hey guys, I picked up a 2.8oz (83ml) tube 100% Silicone (clear), will it be enough to cover a 13x10 tarp or do I need more? And did anyone tried the Ziploc bag idea? I'm thinking of using this method to minimize the stinging smell since I'm just using ordinary paint thinner as the solvent. Odorless mineral spirits is expensive, around $4-$5 for 75ml so it's out of the option.
JohnSawyer
09-02-2011, 18:36
I don't think that'll be enough. I used 1/2 of a 10-oz tube and a quart of thinner on my 8x10 tarp, and it soaked it all up...
StrawHat
09-03-2011, 10:22
If I had to do this again, I'd use some patterned (read: CAMO) fabric, as it did turn out blotchy. The rolled hem around the perimiter really darkened up, and you can see the trapped fabric edge now. -- not a big deal anyway...
John
just finished my first diy tarp(will post pic soon) and will be doing sil treatment next, but I'm afraid to mess it up if it turns out blotchy too. I'm thinking if I just foam brushed the back side and leave the front side untreated. it doesn't matter if the back side turns out blotchy since it wont be seen by others anyway. Now the question is will it perform just as well?
I'm thinking if I just foam brushed the back side and leave the front side untreated. it doesn't matter if the back side turns out blotchy since it wont be seen by others anyway. Now the question is will it perform as well?
that's how I did mine and I am happy with both looks and performance...hope yours goes just as well.
StrawHat
09-03-2011, 11:47
that's how I did mine and I am happy with both looks and performance...hope yours goes just as well.
This is good news to me...:D thanks! How much silicone did you end up using?
I ended up using an entire tube, but wasted a bunch of it. I mixed small batches in a bottle with pennies in it and a bunch of shaking. when the stuff started to set up, I just got another bottle, re-mixed the gunk, and threw the old stuff away. I did this in Yuma Az. last month in about 115 degree heat, so you won't likely have serious issues with the gunk setting up quickly like I did unless you live in the Sonoran desert too.
TheXringHunt
09-03-2011, 15:14
Well I finally did it. Here is my DYI Black Cat Tarp I made a few weeks ago. I followed the instruction on this thread with the 5 to 1 silicone to mineral spirits mix, dunked it, and then hung it up to dry. The waterproofing seemed to go quickly and it looks like it worked just fine. Now I need it to dry so I can test it with the sprinklers and then it will be ready to use. I did get the weight the tarp before treatment and I will weigh it when it dries to get a good comparison. I am real happy how it turned out. The way I am going by the time I am done I will have a complete DYI hammock setup before long. Thanks all for a great thread.
TheXringHunt
---- EDIT ----
Ok after drying all day it is done.
Weight Before Treatment 17.35 oz or 1.08 lbs
Weight After Treatment 24.45 oz or 1.52 lbs
Not bad.....
harrell79cj5
09-07-2011, 10:27
In February of this year I made a 10X12 Camo tarp from DIY gear supply camo 1.1 oz ripstop and then sil'd it myself using about a 4:1 ratio. I have used it quite a few times, and through some rains with great results. This past weekend I was in a rain that started about 8pm and rained hard and steady all night long (with pretty good wind too). The tarp did great at holding the rain out on the body of the tarp, but about the middle of the night I woke up with water dripping on me! The ridgeline seam was pulled pretty tight and the ends were higher than the middle (side tieouts pull the center down). Either my ridgeline was leaking (I didnt seal it seperately just did it with the same mixture I sil'd the rest of the tarp with) or water was running down the underside of my ridgeline seam to the low point in the middle and dripping. The entire length of the ridgeline seam was wet on the underside. So I either need to seal my seam with a thicker (3:1) mixture or put some kind of drip cords on my ends. I have to do some testing during the day when I can see it better. Anyone else have similar problems?
rubi red
09-07-2011, 12:35
Finally got tarp made and used the dunk method. Used 1 tube clear 100% silicone with 3//4 gallon of odor-less mineral spirits. Mixed it up good. Dunked tarp in bucket for about 5 minutes. Tied tarp and let it dry 24 hours.
Tarp did not pass the hose test. It beaded real good, but with any pressure the water came out on the other side.
Had about 1/2 solution left over - most of it seemed to be silicone.
Going to coat a second time.
What should I do different?
Mixture thicker
More time dunked in solution
Use foam brush to coat tarp with remaining solution.
Use something besides odor-less mineral spirits.
All of the above
Thanks
Finally got tarp made and used the dunk method. Used 1 tube clear 100% silicone with 3//4 gallon of odor-less mineral spirits. Mixed it up good. Dunked tarp in bucket for about 5 minutes. Tied tarp and let it dry 24 hours.
Tarp did not pass the hose test. It beaded real good, but with any pressure the water came out on the other side.
Had about 1/2 solution left over - most of it seemed to be silicone.
Going to coat a second time.
What should I do different?
Mixture thicker
More time dunked in solution
Use foam brush to coat tarp with remaining solution.
Use something besides odor-less mineral spirits.
All of the above
Thanks
Did you move the fabric around a lot so that all of the surface got exposed to the full solution? If you don't then sections on the "inside" only get wet from the mineral spirits since the fabric will have strained out the silicone.
Finally got tarp made and used the dunk method. Used 1 tube clear 100% silicone with 3//4 gallon of odor-less mineral spirits. Mixed it up good. Dunked tarp in bucket for about 5 minutes. Tied tarp and let it dry 24 hours.
Tarp did not pass the hose test. It beaded real good, but with any pressure the water came out on the other side.
Had about 1/2 solution left over - most of it seemed to be silicone.
Going to coat a second time.
What should I do different?
Mixture thicker
More time dunked in solution
Use foam brush to coat tarp with remaining solution.
Use something besides odor-less mineral spirits.
All of the above
Thanks
Most people who I have read that do the dunk method kneed the material like bread.
StrawHat
09-08-2011, 10:40
....so I did foam brushed the underside of my diy tarp leaving the front side untreated. The heat of the midday sun sets up the sil fast so I did pretty much what Patches did, mixed it in small batches. I pressed the foam somewhat hard against the fabric to force the sil to sip through, and with my other hand on the other side countering it. Brushed one side and went back on the other side for second coating. I concentrated on the ridgeline and the upper half part coz I think thats the most critical. Im satisfied with the finish job, smooth and without drip marks. For the solvent I just used an ordinary paint thinner, the smell is gone after letting it dry for 24hrs. It rained this morning so I made a quick setup to test the tarp. I stayed inside it for about an hour to check for any leaks and there was none. I was happy but not fully satisfied coz it was just a light rain. A storm is coming in this weekend so we'll see how it performs.
rubi red
09-08-2011, 21:19
Thanks for comments..
Plan for Sat. morning
Larger bucket and more time to make sure all exposed.
Foam brush with any solution left in the bucket.
rubi red
09-11-2011, 12:07
It past the hose test this morning.
I like it.
harrell79cj5
09-15-2011, 15:35
In February of this year I made a 10X12 Camo tarp from DIY gear supply camo 1.1 oz ripstop and then sil'd it myself using about a 4:1 ratio. I have used it quite a few times, and through some rains with great results. This past weekend I was in a rain that started about 8pm and rained hard and steady all night long (with pretty good wind too). The tarp did great at holding the rain out on the body of the tarp, but about the middle of the night I woke up with water dripping on me! The ridgeline seam was pulled pretty tight and the ends were higher than the middle (side tieouts pull the center down). Either my ridgeline was leaking (I didnt seal it seperately just did it with the same mixture I sil'd the rest of the tarp with) or water was running down the underside of my ridgeline seam to the low point in the middle and dripping. The entire length of the ridgeline seam was wet on the underside. So I either need to seal my seam with a thicker (3:1) mixture or put some kind of drip cords on my ends. I have to do some testing during the day when I can see it better. Anyone else have similar problems?
I did some more hose testing (read: full blast at 6") on the ridgeline and found that water was coming through and then running down and dripping in the center. I mixed up a batch of 3:1 ratio sil/mineral spirits and put it on the ridgeline. pretty sure that fixed my problem. I didnt have any problems for awhile but it had rained really hard all night (tropical depression), which will find any way through if possible. Just wanted to post for others that have sil'd tarps, you may want to do some hard testing on the ridgeline if you havent already.
JohnSawyer
09-15-2011, 21:49
I dunked and kneaded my tarp, then wiped both sides down with a sil/mineral spirits dampened rag...
I haven't had any problems, but I did get 1/2 of a tube on an 8x10 tarp.
egrant5329
12-11-2011, 16:49
Well I am going to give the DIY silicone a try just to see if I can do it. It seems like it has to be a terribly messy project, but I thought I would try it anyway.
I threw this tarp together out of some cheap 1.1 oz nylon that I ordered while ordering supplies for another project. It measures 130" x 72" which is bigger than the MacCat Micro and weighs 174gm or 6.15oz. I'll be curious to see what the weight ends up being when it dries.
Wish me luck!
Ed
egrant5329
12-12-2011, 17:19
Well today I made the I applied the silicone to the nylon. I took 1 tube el' cheapo Walmart silicone and added it to ~3/4 a bottle of mineral spirits. I shook the devil out of it and let it set for 3 days (shaking it occasionally). This made a nearly homogenous mixture with no clumps.
To apply it, I poured it into a small bucket and dunked and massaged the tarp into it. After a few minutes of working it around, I pulled it out and hung it up.
There were a few places that didn't get covered, so I used a foam brush to work some of the excess down the material. This process also coated/saturated the few areas that didn't get covered when soaking it.
I almost messed up because I had to move it before it dried completely. My garage was about 35 degrees and after letting it set a few hours I moved it to our basement to finish drying. While moving it the tacky cloth stuck to itself and I almost couldn't get it apart. Fortunately it didn't hurt anything.
While it hasn't completely dried yet, it's close. I have attached a photo of the material coated. It's darker than the original now and seems more transparent.
All in all it wasn't real difficult, nor too messy, but it did have a horrible smell that reminded me of the old film developing solutions.
Total cost was ~$20 and a lot of time making the tarp. Next time I'll just buy a tarp, but this was fun and educational!
I'll add the weight when it is completely dried. I am guessing it is heavier than commercial nysil.
Rain Man
12-12-2011, 18:32
I shook the devil out of it and let it set for 3 days (shaking it occasionally).
My understanding is that this mixture will not last, but begins to congeal within a short while of being mixed. I've come back a day later and found it to be like Jello and useless. So, just be careful of thinking letting it set is good for it.
Glad it worked for you, though! I've found it a very handy way to re-do stuff sacks, backpacks, and the like.
Rain Man
.
egrant5329
12-12-2011, 18:42
The mineral spirits I purchased came in a plastic bottle with screw on lid and I mixed it in that bottle screwing the lid on tight. My end mixture was about like the thickness of Elmer's glue, perhaps a tad thicker.
I mixed it Friday afternoon and applied it today, so it lasted about 3 days without any problems. I assume as long as you keep the mineral spirits in and most of the air out it shouldn't set up.
It will still set up to some degree if left un-aggitated, even in a sealed container. What you'll get is a layer of goop on top of the liquid that is sort of a really springy, stretchy stuff sort of like the stretchy snot that used to be in the little gumball vending machines as a toy. Shaking it every 8 hours or so will keep it from doing that for quite some time though.
I used a 3 gallon metal bucket, and a drill with one of those huge paint stirring corkscrew thingamajigs to stir the bejesus out of it for a good 10 minutes. Let it set for about 15 minutes, then did it again, then dunked my tarp. It worked pretty well. Didn't see any chunks. I put the mixture back in the mineral spirits container afterwards, but within about 5 days, it was completely wrecked. I probably could have dropped some solvents back in there and rescued it, but I didn't bother.
dimeotane
12-12-2011, 19:33
Yes, I'm also surprised you could let it sit for 3 days after mixing and not end up with a jello. Mine began to set very quickly after I mixed it. The left overs I tried storing in a sealed jar but it set by the next day. Perhaps the speed it sets has to do with how much oxygen is mixed in? I frothed my mix up good with my drill and zip ties.
I shook the devil out of it and let it set for 3 days (shaking it occasionally).
My understanding is that this mixture will not last, but begins to congeal within a short while of being mixed. I've come back a day later and found it to be like Jello and useless. So, just be careful of thinking letting it set is good for it.
Glad it worked for you, though! I've found it a very handy way to re-do stuff sacks, backpacks, and the like.
Rain Man
.
egrant5329
12-13-2011, 08:13
I weighed the tarp this morning and I knew it would be heavier than commercial nysil but the weight surprised me a little. The tarp was 174gm before the silicone and 322gm after. Basically the it's weight increased 185%. As I understand it commercial nysil usually increases from 1.1 up to 1.45oz a 132% increase.
The tarp also feels like there is excess silicone and has a rubbery silicone feel to it instead of the more slippery commercial feel. I have no doubt that it will be water proof!
Rain Man
12-13-2011, 09:50
My end mixture was about like the thickness of Elmer's glue, perhaps a tad thicker.
Much thicker than mine! For whatever that's worth. But might contribute to the "feel" and weight you described.
... the weight surprised me .... The tarp also feels like there is excess silicone and has a rubbery silicone feel to it ....
Did you wipe the excess off with a squeegee or a simply cloth rag, while it was still wet?
Rain Man
.
egrant5329
12-13-2011, 14:03
I attempted to wipe the excess off by using a foam brush which mainly worked around the silicone and moved some of the excess to the bottom edge. Then I used some old rags and got some more off, but there was still more that could be removed. I didn't want to redo it later if I took too much off, so I left more on than I should have.
On retrospect I think a thinner silicone solution would work better as my tarp soaked almost the entire batch. What was on the tarp was so thick that almost nothing dripped off. I think a thinner solution would have gotten the silicone in the material and the excess would have dripped off easier. I can see why people would like a squeegee or one of the old clothes rollers, or something to remove the excess.
One of the reasons I tackled this project was too see if I could do it, but another reason was the cheap nylon that I was using was 72" wide (efabricsupplier.com). With this width I didn't need any seams. Most nysil I have see is 60" wide which is too narrow for what I wanted to do.
Bummer about the excess sil weight.
Silicone doesn't actually disolve in mineral spirits (it just goes into suspension) so the extra days sitting probably just resulted in the silicone starting to set up resulting in a thicker solution which in the end might not even adhere as well to the fabric.
egrant5329
12-14-2011, 10:28
I not sure I agree about the silicone setting up, but having only done it once this way so I can't say for sure. In the solvent without air it doesn't make sense to me that it would set up, although it seems reasonable that it would settle out.
The bottle I mixed everything in still had a little left (3/8-1/2") it in after I poured the bulk of it into the bucket. I looked at it this morning on my work bench and it is still the same and I had mixed it last Friday. It oozed around in the bottle in the same thick consistent manor as before.
I think the excess silicone will eventually come off, but I'll just have to wait and see. With a little friction from my thumb the excess rubbed off on a corner that I tested. Since it has dried it doesn't stick to itself when folded, but it doesn't slide open as easily as regular nylon does either.
All in all it will work until I buy a Cuben MacCat deluxe on of these days.
I not sure I agree about the silicone setting up, but having only done it once this way so I can't say for sure. In the solvent without air it doesn't make sense to me that it would set up, although it seems reasonable that it would settle out.
I had to throw away 3 tubes recently because they set up and the tubes where never opened.
Anthony A Jara
12-15-2011, 11:14
Could anyone provide me with a basic pattern for a hex/cat-cut tarp... My new book the ultimate hang does not provide those details....it's easier for me to receive info thru e-mail(
[email protected])than through hammockfourms at present.
Thank-you
Rain Man
12-15-2011, 18:01
I didn't want to redo it later if I took too much off, so I left more on than I should have.
To me, the reverse is true. I'd rather take off too much and do a second coat instead of leaving too much on. A thick coat will tend to peel off after it dries.
Rain Man
.
egrant5329
12-15-2011, 21:50
Rain man,
Have you had any that peeled? I am curious if it was or wasn't water proof after peeling.
I can easily rub the excess off the material, but I haven't tested a rubbed off area to see how it holds up to water for any real amount of time. If I cup it into a bowl shape it will hold water in a rubbed off area (on both sides) for a few minutes with no signs of leaking. When I do the same thing to a scrap piece of the nylon it starts seeping within a minute.
For some reason I was under the impression that it is the silicone adhering to the thread that is important and not so much the coating, unlike urethane where the coating is important.
I do agree that multiple small coats would be better. It was near freezing when I did it in my garage and at that time I didn't want to mess with multiple coats and doing it more than once.
I checked my bottle of left over silicone slime just now and it still oozes around. I think I'll dilute it out to where it is fairly thin and coat a piece of left over nylon and see how it works this weekend.
Rain Man
12-16-2011, 10:40
Have you had any that peeled? I am curious if it was or wasn't water proof after peeling.
Yes, I did learn quickly that it would peel off. Stopped doing it that way, so never tested it for waterproofness after peeling.
For some reason I was under the impression that it is the silicone adhering to the thread that is important and not so much the coating, unlike urethane where the coating is important.
That's my impression too, the stuff saturates and fills tiny gaps between the threads, thus another reason not to put it on thick. Just extra weight for no reason.[/QUOTE]
It was near freezing when I did it in my garage and at that time I didn't want to mess with multiple coats and doing it more than once.
AHA! I don't blame you at all. :lol:
Rain Man
.
Rain Man
12-16-2011, 10:45
Have you had any that peeled? I am curious if it was or wasn't water proof after peeling.
Yes, I did learn quickly that it would peel off. Stopped doing it that way, so never tested it for waterproofness after peeling.
For some reason I was under the impression that it is the silicone adhering to the thread that is important and not so much the coating, unlike urethane where the coating is important.
That's my impression too, the stuff saturates and fills tiny gaps between the threads, thus another reason not to put it on thick. Just extra weight for no reason.[/QUOTE]
It was near freezing when I did it in my garage and at that time I didn't want to mess with multiple coats and doing it more than once.
AHA! I don't blame you at all. :lol:
Rain Man
.
egrant5329
12-18-2011, 15:56
Well about an hour ago I took the bottle with the little bit of silicone/mineral spirits still oozing around in it and added more mineral spirits (totally non scientific without volumes or measurements). After shaking it up really well, I took a piece of the same 1.1oz ripstop weighing 10gm and kneaded it in the concoction for a few minutes. I then squeezed as much fluid off as I could and hung it up. I'll post the change in weight when it dries.
It was easier to soak the material, the entire piece was saturated without having to work the surface with a foam brush and I didn't have to wipe the extra silicone off the surface. I think the final weight will tell me how close it is to premade nysil. If it works out, it will be a vastly superior way to coat the nylon than the thick mixture I used the first time.
I've got a couple of hypotheticals / questions I'd like to pose, if anyone would care to take whacks at em, please do.
1. I'm thinking that the angles of a typical hammock tarp should shed water virtually all water with zero coating.
2. There could be a water problem from capillary action of hanging a nylon tarp over a centerline. Or from water running down the tie offs and creeping in. Are there others I've not thought of?
3. I'm thinking paint roller's width of sil at the center line would kill the action of #2.
4. Has anyone tried this using wax? Waxed cotton used to be the sil of the day. Would nylon absorb it like cotton does?
egrant5329
12-19-2011, 18:54
I don't have enough experience hanging in the rain to comment about the angle. So far when I have used mine it wasn't pitched real steeply. Water would hang around quite a bit before pooling and running off.
I also hang my tarp under the ridge line with a prussic on each end to move the tarp along the ridge line to where I want it more easily.
On my experiment with the thinner silicone, my scale wasn't sensitive enough to measure the weight gain accurately. It went from 10gm to 11gm, but it needs another decimal of accuracy. I bet it is very close to commercial material.
egrant5329
12-19-2011, 19:01
Here is an example of my first bridge hanging. If I would have hung my tarp about a foot higher it would have been nearly perfect.
I've got a couple of hypotheticals / questions I'd like to pose, if anyone would care to take whacks at em, please do.
1. I'm thinking that the angles of a typical hammock tarp should shed water virtually all water with zero coating.
2. There could be a water problem from capillary action of hanging a nylon tarp over a centerline. Or from water running down the tie offs and creeping in. Are there others I've not thought of?
3. I'm thinking paint roller's width of sil at the center line would kill the action of #2.
4. Has anyone tried this using wax? Waxed cotton used to be the sil of the day. Would nylon absorb it like cotton does?
Nylon naturally absorbs water. as it rains and the nylon tarp reaches its saturation point it will saturate you. No matter how steep you pitch a nylon tarp with no treatment it will absorb water.
Thanks for the input. Just wanted to leave this here. In researching this, I found one of the things the industry uses:
http://www.dowcorning.com/content/textiles/texind/Liquid_Silicone_Rubber.asp
Dow Corning LS 4325 is the solvent based silicone recommended for tents.
Thanks for the input. Just wanted to leave this here. In researching this, I found one of the things the industry uses:
http://www.dowcorning.com/content/textiles/texind/Liquid_Silicone_Rubber.asp
Dow Corning LS 4325 is the solvent based silicone recommended for tents.
From that site: Heat-activated platinum-catalyzed addition cure
Probably not something us DIYers can handle.
That's true for the solventless Liquid Silicone Rubber. The solvent based stuff might be doable?
I got a blow dryer or a 1500* heat gun, point me at the stuff and I'm ready.
Huh. Looking at it, this line caught my eye:
"Chemically inert; highly resistant to water, weak acids and bases, polar solvents and a wide variety of chemicals."
Emphasis mine. Does this mean I should be careful about dripping any of my stove fuel on it? I mean, denatured alcohol is a non-polar solvent... :scared:
Just wanted to report on a small experiment. I used paraffin and silicone 1:1 and about 5 parts Naphtha (coleman camp fuel). I shaved the parraffin into a big glass peanut butter jar. It didn't completely emulsify, but that may be because it's cold. It formed a bit of a slurry. Then the silicone. I just shook it to mix and wiped it on with a rag. I'm really happy with the result. Certainly flammable as all hell.
I'd recommend less paraffin than I used. Maybe 1/3 of the silicone. My tarp feels waxy.
Just wanted to report on a small experiment. I used paraffin and silicone 1:1 and about 5 parts Naphtha (coleman camp fuel). I shaved the parraffin into a big glass peanut butter jar. It didn't completely emulsify, but that may be because it's cold. It formed a bit of a slurry. Then the silicone. I just shook it to mix and wiped it on with a rag. I'm really happy with the result. Certainly flammable as all hell.
I'd recommend less paraffin than I used. Maybe 1/3 of the silicone. My tarp feels waxy.
I don't understand the purpose of the paraffin wax. Silicone doesn't play well with other things so why add a non-compatible item to the mix? Also, please do not use highly flammable solvents like Coleman camp fuel or gasoline. It's extremely dangerous and offers no benefit.
Sorry to come down on you but the idea of people reading these posts and trying things like gasoline or camp fuel is terrifying.
Naphtha and mineral spirits, are both highly flammable petroleum distillates. I don't see a huge difference between the two as far as safety precautions that need to be taken. Maybe some chemist here can correct me, but Naphtha contains a good bit of soluble paraffin in it already, and it's a good solvent for silicone calk, so I don't think I took a huge leap. Naphtha, in the form of Coleman white gas is much cheaper for me.
In digging into the tech sheets on the dowcorning site, there was a mention of a paraffin / silicone mix so I decided to try it.
It stays flexible. I spilled a little on the table I was working on outdoors, after 5 days it's still soft. It beads and repels water like mad. The tarp feels a little waxy, but it remains flexible. I think naphtha gave me a longer working time than folks seemed to have with mineral spirits.
edit- I have no doubt that the end result is much more flammable than silicone alone.
Odorless mineral spirits has a lower flammability rating and a much higher flash point then Coleman fuel making it the safer solvent to use.
Information provided below is to educate, not to be argumentative. I have a relative who was burned using gasoline to clean bicycle parts.
Wikipedia: Though Coleman fuel has an octane rating of 50 to 55 and a flammability similar to gasoline, it has none of the additives found in modern gasoline and cannot be used as a substitute for gasoline, kerosene or diesel fuel in modern engines.
Coleman Fuel MSDS:
FLASH POINT: <0°F (<-18°C) Tag Closed Cup
Mineral Spirits MSDS:
Flash Pt: > 107.00 F Method Used: TAG Closed Cup
The information and concern is appreciated. Clearly it's more volatile than mineral spirits.
I was curious and interested in a waxed cotton sort of texture. I'm not saying this is a better method, just it was interesting to me. The result seems very hydrophobic.
For informational purposes, modelers seem to really like the naphtha silicone mix for making masks, molds, and sculptures:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vfH_HCI0G4I#t=527s
I guess that would be one way to stay warm on a frigid night.
I'd prefer to go without the blistered skin though!
...For informational purposes, modelers seem to really like the naphtha silicone mix for making masks, molds, and sculptures...
Spreading less then 2 oz of naphtha over ~2sf of mask, while still highly flammable, is considerably different than spreading it over a 10'x12' tarp with 240sf of surface area.:scared:
One best be mindful of ignition sources with either solvent.
Chembrew
01-10-2012, 22:33
I'm new to this whole hammock area, but I earn my living as a professional chemist making silicone products for personal care and textile applications. That being said, I would still never consider trying to waterproof ripstop nylon myself as an effective way of achieving desired results. Lightweight 1st quality silnylon is totally worth the price of admission. My customers apply 800 - 3000 psi between rollers in the process of impregnated nylon and it's light and very consistent. Perfect in general. The better silicone can be two part and catalyzed during the process to crosslink and form a very durable bond. I love this forum and do not say this to discourage anyone from trying and succeeding in their efforts to do anything themselves. I just think the exposure to the solvents and not a good idea for most people. I say that from nearly a lifetime of working with this stuff and this application of solvents are very dangerous and should be discouraged unless you like taking risks with your lungs, liver and and fire.
Rain Man
01-11-2012, 11:04
THANKS, Chembrew! Good stuff. What about "rehabilitating" sil-nylon? Is it worth the trouble then? I've never made rip-stop into sil-nylon, but have fixed leaky sil-nylon stuff sacks, etc.
Rain Man
I'm new to this whole hammock area, but I earn my living as a professional chemist making silicone products for personal care and textile applications. That being said, I would still never consider trying to waterproof ripstop nylon myself as an effective way of achieving desired results. Lightweight 1st quality silnylon is totally worth the price of admission. My customers apply 800 - 3000 psi between rollers in the process of impregnated nylon and it's light and very consistent. Perfect in general. The better silicone can be two part and catalyzed during the process to crosslink and form a very durable bond. I love this forum and do not say this to discourage anyone from trying and succeeding in their efforts to do anything themselves. I just think the exposure to the solvents and not a good idea for most people. I say that from nearly a lifetime of working with this stuff and this application of solvents are very dangerous and should be discouraged unless you like taking risks with your lungs, liver and and fire.
egrant5329
01-11-2012, 15:32
I agree with basically all the points Chembrew made and did mine just see how well it would work on a tarp. I haven't used my tarp multiple times and my sil coating ended up heavier than I would prefer, however my first attempt at creating my own nysil was on a homemade bicycle seat cover. I have wadded it up probably 200 times and had it on my seat for several months now in the rain, sun and snow. So far it looks as good as when I made it and is completely waterproof. Basically it has exceeded my best expectations.
I'm new to this whole hammock area, but I earn my living as a professional chemist making silicone products for personal care and textile applications. That being said, I would still never consider trying to waterproof ripstop nylon myself as an effective way of achieving desired results. Lightweight 1st quality silnylon is totally worth the price of admission. My customers apply 800 - 3000 psi between rollers in the process of impregnated nylon and it's light and very consistent. Perfect in general. The better silicone can be two part and catalyzed during the process to crosslink and form a very durable bond. I love this forum and do not say this to discourage anyone from trying and succeeding in their efforts to do anything themselves. I just think the exposure to the solvents and not a good idea for most people. I say that from nearly a lifetime of working with this stuff and this application of solvents are very dangerous and should be discouraged unless you like taking risks with your lungs, liver and and fire.
Thanks for chiming in, Chembrew. It's always good to get advice from the experts.
Chembrew
01-12-2012, 00:55
THANKS, Chembrew! Good stuff. What about "rehabilitating" sil-nylon? Is it worth the trouble then? I've never made rip-stop into sil-nylon, but have fixed leaky sil-nylon stuff sacks, etc.
Rain Man
I was really only referring to making yardage of it. Everything else is fun and practical for DIY I'm making my first blackcap tarp and will use ideas from this forum to make my own seam sealer. I bought the silnylon from tree to trail. It's pricey in general and worth every cent.
packeagle
01-12-2012, 01:07
THANKS, Chembrew! Good stuff. What about "rehabilitating" sil-nylon? Is it worth the trouble then? I've never made rip-stop into sil-nylon, but have fixed leaky sil-nylon stuff sacks, etc.
Rain Man
I was on another forum and henry shires (of tarptent) chimed in and suggested useing silicone spray found in many sporting good stores to "rehabilitate" sil. He suggested that one can or about 2oz of silicone can prevent "misting" in the sil. Here is a video made by Franco, Tarptents Australian distributor where he applies the spray to a double rainbow tarp tent. Although its on a tent it would apply to a sil tarp as well.
GBnkGIz9cco
Jumpin Joe
01-16-2012, 17:46
I may give this a try, it would save a few bucks from buying sil.
So i decided i would make my own sil. I did a little test piece today. I used a half gallon of mineral and 1 tube of caulk. I'm waiting on the piece to dry but it seemed to work pretty well and if the piece i made is water tight tomorrow ill be doing the whole tarp sometime next week.
Now for a few questions, Is 1 tube of caulk and a half gallon of mineral spirits a good ratio?
Any tips for how to do this with a whole tarp? Doing just the small piece i realised how hard doing the full thing is going to be.
And will letting this dry outside overnight be a problem? I plan on hanging a larger blue polly tarp over it to try to keep as much stuff off as possible because unfortunately i don't have a garage to hang the tarp in.
Rain Man
02-04-2012, 20:41
Now for a few questions, Is 1 tube of caulk and a half gallon of mineral spirits a good ratio?
Folks use any ratio from 3-to-1 to 10-to-1, spirits-to-silicone. I use 4-to-1. Whether you go by weight or volume doesn't matter.
I've never done a whole tarp, but would recommend two things-- do it outside (plenty of ventilation) and wipe or scrape off all excess. You want the silicone down in the holes between the threads, not as a coating.
Beware, if I don't use it right away, mine "sets up" on me after I mix it and will not last 24 hours or so. Gets either really gooey or just firm. Unusable in either case.
Rain Man
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Roadrunnr72
02-05-2012, 09:38
I have a DIY sil tarp. If your looking for a light weight backpacking tarp, buy the sil-nylon. If you just want the wow factor and car camp, then a DIY tarp with DIY sil is nice. The DiY sil on a full tarp adds alot of weight. Just my .02.
Hey guys quick question, if it was covered in the previous 41 (yes 41) pages I apologize for not searching in depth for it.
I'm planning on a DIY "warbonnett with doors" style, I'd like to do it right the first time, not several versions. I'd like to get black 1.1 material and coat it with black silicone. However, doing so without guidance/advice would be a waste of money. A few questions present themselves, thought I'd get y'alls input.
1. Has anyone coated with NON clear silicone with success?
2. If so, was the mixing ratio 1:4 the same?
3. Is this a stupid idea and should I drop it?
Now that I'm thinking of it, if ones goal is provide shade and prevent unwanted radiant heat UNDER a tarp, could one use black caulk on the bottom side and grey/silver on top? Assuming the first coat (gray/silver) of silicone soaks into the fabric in it's entire thickness, is it possible to coat it with black on the bottom on application number 2 on the opposite side?
The sun gets crazy brutal here in the sumer, just throwin' it out there...
Ideas?
Shnick
egrant5329
03-12-2012, 07:12
If you want to do it right the 1st time the I'd recommend buying the sil. It will be better quality, last longer and most likely weigh less.
I made some and was successful, but it was considerably heavier than the sil you can buy. I don't know about the longevity yet.
I believe someone with manufacturing experience said that the factory silicone is applied with high pressure using a catalyst.
Good luck!
Ed
Attempted DIY Sil this weekend. Unfortunately the nylon from WM was not as advertised (shocker :scared:) and it did not absorb into the fabric at all.
Copy that guys, thanks...
I think for the price of a warbonnett I could go factory on this project...
Shnick
Rain Man
03-12-2012, 08:53
1. Has anyone coated with NON clear silicone with success?
Not I, but would guess it'd be the same. However, the black dye/coloring would be so diluted and thin, I doubt anyone would know it was ever black to begin with.
2. If so, was the mixing ratio 1:4 the same?
We have some pretty good chemists in the thread, so let's see if they speak up. But the mixing ratio simply isn't precise to begin with, so I doubt if the black coloring would mess up any "precision" anyway.
3. Is this a stupid idea and should I drop it?
Heck no ... experimenting is the nature of progress! Go for it! But practice on a small piece first.
Now that I'm thinking of it, if ones goal is provide shade and prevent unwanted radiant heat UNDER a tarp, could one use black caulk on the bottom side and grey/silver on top? Assuming the first coat (gray/silver) of silicone soaks into the fabric in it's entire thickness, is it possible to coat it with black on the bottom on application number 2 on the opposite side?
You keep speaking of "coating," but to my knowledge, the silicone never coats the nylon anyway. Rather is soaks in all the way through. Any excess "coating" should be wiped off before it dries. (Any excess (or, coating) that I have left on tends to just peel off once it dries.) Or at least that's my understanding and has been my practice.
Lets see what others have to say.
Rain Man
.
DemostiX
03-12-2012, 09:53
. Unfortunately the nylon from WM was not as advertised (shocker :scared:) and it did not absorb into the fabric at all.
Would you explain? WM as in Western Mountaineering?
And per posts from engineers with expertise in this thread:.
With rare exceptions: This is not worth doing and should not be done for large quantities. The result is never superior to commercial products. You are dumping hydrocarbons into the air.
I could see doing this for vanity reasons -- I wanted to match colors, or for small areas where my opinion of what is needed is different from the equipment designer's. Example of the latter: Clark builds hoods onto the ends of all their hammocks. I may disagree with Clark that air permeability is wanted for those hoods and want those hoods to be silicon-impregnated, so they are as waterproof as a tarp.
Or, I want a (matching? contrasting color?) stuff sack to be waterproof.
In both of those examples, the total weight penalty of DIY waterproofing is small because the quantity of fabric is small.
Would you explain? WM as in Western Mountaineering?
.
My apologies for the bad acronym. Wal-M**t.
I used the nylon from their discount rack as an attempt to do my own sil. The camo pattern did not accept any of the sil mixture.
Sounds like the fabric already had some type of coating which prevented the sil from adhering/penetrating.
Chembrews comments about the rollers has me wondering if I know anyone with the old wringers used with the old hand wash washing stations. I know they have one at the car wash but I don't want to impose my sil treatment residue onto anyone chamios!
RamenShamen
03-24-2012, 12:53
First, I have to say-- I absolutely love my WB Superfly!!! Second, has anyone come up with a standardized silicone/mineral spirits ratio?
i decided to see if i could make my own sil nylon out of breathable 1.1.
i decide to soak it on, thinking i could get a much more consistent coating than with a brush, and also thinking i could make it alot thinner and it might soak in to the interior fibers better making it more like impregnated than coated, and that maybe it wouldn't wear off like a coating might.
i mixed mineral spirits and silicone to get something thin enough to soak the fabric in, soaked one, thinned further, soaked another, thinned again, soaked a third.
i gave all three the shower head test, the first one, the thickest mix (#1) seemed the best, it was also apparent that any excess should have been wiped off before it dried, seems like it will not drip off unless it's too thin.
the first test was done with 6" squares, so then i cut out an exact sq. yd, weighed it at 1.1/32g, i eyeballed a larger mix that looked like the first one, soaked, wrung out, and wiped both sides as dry as i could and let it dry over night.
results are good, weighs exactly 1.3/38g, and seems to do about as well or at least close to sil on the shower head test, i'm thinking if it would have been a tarp, i would have set it up tight, to fully stretch it, then wipe it down, this may allow mix to penetrate deeper and better into the inside of the fabric better, worked suprisingly well the way i did it though.
can't say about durability, did seem like i got most of the sil off the surface already though by wiping it down.
don't know when i'll make a whole tarp, i just wondered about it awhile ago, and i happened to have the silicone out yesterday, sorry i don't have any exact mix ratios, i couldn't find anything to measure with but my kitchen stuff, so i just eyeballed it all. it was runny, but still had a little thickness left, and was pretty cloudy looking at an inch deep, but pretty clear at a half inch or so.(as i remember it)
i know sil is hard to find in many colors, so this may be an option, especially if you want exact color matches.
don't know about tear strength, sil has a higher tear strength than breathable 1.9, so i don't know about this stuff.
i also don't know how factory impregnation is done or if this is similar or not, i just know impregnation is present on the interior of the fabric as this seems to be as well.
maybe somebody has already tried this and knows more about long term use.
Brandon
First, I have to say-- I absolutely love my WB Superfly!!! Second, has anyone come up with a standardized silicone/mineral spirits ratio?
1:3 by weight.
outback118
07-28-2012, 12:17
mixxing paint mixxer in a drill, I wonder is a wallpaper glue table would work for putting it on?
did it smell like thinner long after it dried?
JohnSawyer
07-28-2012, 12:46
I hung mine outside for a day and there was no smell at all...
Zentoast
07-30-2012, 21:14
I pitched the tarp and used 2" foam brushes and applied it evenly. Used one brush per side, as the silicone sets up pretty quickly...
No smell after a day, none at all...
soulsurvivor
10-21-2012, 00:09
bump. great ideas here. anyone just sprayed on a few cans of scotchguard?
JohnSawyer
10-21-2012, 00:28
bump. great ideas here. anyone just sprayed on a few cans of scotchguard?
Yeah, tried that... Got wet...
The scotchguard will make the fabric repel water, but under pressure, and after a time the fabric wets through. Once that happens, it starts dripping.
John
soulsurvivor
10-21-2012, 00:46
how many coats/ cans did you use? what about as a topcoat to the silicon treatment? it seems that with correct pitch and tighness the theory is sound. as it would take a heck of a rain to be pressurized also did you treat both sides with the scotchguard? just curious dont want to get wet either bankin on others experience is the best.
JohnSawyer
10-21-2012, 01:09
how many coats/ cans did you use? what about as a topcoat to the silicon treatment? it seems that with correct pitch and tighness the theory is sound. as it would take a heck of a rain to be pressurized also did you treat both sides with the scotchguard? just curious dont want to get wet either bankin on others experience is the best.
I didn't use scotchguard, but a can of Siliconized waterproofing (similar).
I used 2 large cans, and really soaked the fabric through. It was a waste of $8.
how many coats/ cans did you use? what about as a topcoat to the silicon treatment? it seems that with correct pitch and tighness the theory is sound. as it would take a heck of a rain to be pressurized also did you treat both sides with the scotchguard? just curious dont want to get wet either bankin on others experience is the best.
There is a big difference between "water repellent" and "water proof". The "scotchguard" type materials are water repellents and will not hold up under a heavy rain even with the pitch angles we use. Learn this or get wet...your choice.
soulsurvivor
10-21-2012, 10:57
got it.... still. no fabric is "waterproof" that i know of. not sil-nylon or cuben. for that matter it has to be that the weave of the fabric is tighter or it is treated in more coats / with better silicon.. guys that have used 100% silicon are getting good results right? so it must just be that scotchy is inferior. bummer cuz the price cant be beat. unless you go for that tyvek ugly tarp... not lookin so ugly these days lol
got it.... still. no fabric is "waterproof" that i know of. not sil-nylon or cuben. for that matter it has to be that the weave of the fabric is tighter or it is treated in more coats / with better silicon.. guys that have used 100% silicon are getting good results right? so it must just be that scotchy is inferior. bummer cuz the price cant be beat. unless you go for that tyvek ugly tarp... not lookin so ugly these days lol
I'm not sure why you think "no" fabrics are waterproof. A high quality silnylon, good PU coated materials, cuban, etc., are for all intents and purposes, waterproof.
The DIY silnylon discussed in this thread uses a silicone sealant (caulk) disolved in mineral spirits to soak the fabric. After the mineral spirits evaporate and the silicone cures, the result is a fabric with the space between threads filled with silicone.
A silicone spray/scotchguard type product coats the surfaces of the threads but does not fill in the voids. It raises the surface tension (or something similar) of the fabric and causes water to bead up. Water "pounding" on the fabric (rain) can still be forced between the threads causing leaks. A bag made of this type material and pressurized will leak as well.
While my details may or may not be a little off, I believe the general ideas to be correct.
soulsurvivor
10-21-2012, 12:05
absolutely. i think we are all on the same page. the no fabric being waterproof wasnt my opinion. just a fact from wikipedia. but i understand what you mean when u say "for all intents and purposes" and i believe its that result we are all looking for. i appreciate the help. as ive never tried either. i simply use an 8x10 camo poly. tired of the roll at the bottom of my pack and the achy shoulders tho. i have seen silk and rayon umbrellas tho for many years. so there must be a way to treat these fabrics. if the proffessionals have found a way, then i can do it. at least thast always been my motto and it has served we well. really great info here its awesome to work these things out. we have a lot of talent and some serious IQ in the membership ranks. thanks all
swankfly
10-22-2012, 08:50
I saw a brief mention eluding to using the "regular" mineral spirits vs. the low odor. I could not locate any more info on this. Is there a different result?
Thanks
Awesome thread! Although I wish I had read it before I made my DIY Silnylon 10x12 tarp. I would have had a much better process to get through and I would have know NOT to use the "Low Odor" spirits and use the regular spirits. It turned out great and it is VERY dry underneath. My wife was excited when it left her sewing room...
I've got a lot more reading to do as I'm only on post 337, in order to fix my problem from here http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=61369 ...but this response threw me for a loop....are we not supposed to use the low odor minerial spirits? How did I miss that?
Ok, I think I'm back on track and low odor and/or odorless mineral spirits is fine to use. Correct?
Can anyone reconfirm/answer my question above and swankfly questions above me?
JohnSawyer
10-23-2012, 16:25
The low odor stuff scares me... looks milky and thick. I only use it to clean brushes.
WOW What a Read!!
Some comments and suggestions for anyone still looking to do this.
1) Use heavy nitrate gloves, they will last longer in the mineral spirits.
2) Use of denatured alcohol is NOT recommended. We use this to smooth and clean up silicone but it does not mix with it.
3) Mineral spirits, paint thinner, or lacquer thinner, should all work, they are basically the same product just progressively stronger. Stay a way form white gas as it has a very low flash point. This translates to a high vapor rate and is quite dangerous.
4) I, personally, think the best way to do a project like this it to hang up your material tight, and then apply a thin runny coat, lots of excess and then use a Squeegee to "scrape" the excess off the fabric, you may need to Squeegee both sides so keep that in mind before hanging your fabric.
I think this would give you good penetration and remove all most all excess silicone form the material. This may also help with removing any air pockets left in the fabric itself. Possibility the cause of misting.
4) Do one layer. Silicone does not like to stick to it's self. Once silicone has fully cured adding additional silicone to it will only cause the second layer to flake off. I don't know what the mixing of silicone to mineral spirits does to the actual cure time to the silicone, it seems to vary with the product and mixing ratio from the different results people have with the product in a "jar". So you maybe able to touch up just made fabric, but I still think it would be better to do it in one shot.
And 5)
Given the availability of Sil-Nylon now days, Fall of 2012 VS Early 2008, why not just buy it?! :) Although it would be fun to do if you had the time, space and wherewithal.
Wolf
swankfly
10-24-2012, 11:05
My reason, for just not buying it, is I am looking for a nice UL tarp made out of Multi Cam and they are not out there. I can get some 40d ripstop in the pattern, but I have to treat it myself.
I did not read the whole thread, but in the beginning someone came up with the idea of using vacuum for the soaking. That is used for treating fibers with epoxy, to remove bubbles and excess resin, and possibly for other reasons.
I just imagine that it would also help for impregnation of fabrics. Especially because it would likely remove air bubbles (and thus reach more percent of the fabric), and excess material, theoretically resulting in a more watertight and lighter end product.
Did anyone try that?
Hi all.
Just been reading thru this thread a bit and was wondering if anyone has tried a 2 part silicone as aposed to the stuff out of a caulk tube. I used to use the stuf to make prosthetics and it was quite easy to work with. Not sure if it would make a difference just that because its 2 part curing not air curing you have more control overe it. Also the 2part stuff may impregnate the material better and therfore provide better water protection.
I haven't read all 44 pages so if iv missed something sorry for wasting your time.
Tim.
I don't remember anyone trying 2 part. I've only used it once many years ago to make a mold. Can it be thinned or is there a very thin version made?
it can be thinned....Quite a bit too we occasionally used to spray paint with the stuff.
psyculman
11-07-2012, 05:51
I use an industrial spray finish system. I mixed the silicon and low odor (not GREEN enviro) 100% mineral spirits with a shaker device in a 1 gallon can. Then sprayed that on a tarp size piece of 1.1 nylon. And sprayed it again, and again. After 4 coats on both sides, let it dry for 24 hr. It did not build up to a 'rubbery' coating. But....it came out not even close to waterproof. I just wouldn't build up and close the fabric weave.
What dilution ratio did you use?
psyculman
11-08-2012, 05:41
What dilution ratio did you use?
The dilution was the same as the prescribed ratio here on HF, I think 3 parts mineral spirit to 1 part silicon caulk. By weight it came out to about 1 quart of mineral spirits to one 10oz. tube of GE silicon caulk. It sprayed on great.
ge.jeffers
11-16-2012, 03:50
ok, I just sat and read 45 pages of posts, replies, and comments. So just a few questions.
1. If you have the material, is it cheaper to do this vs. going out and buying silnylon?
2. Do you sew the tarp, since I am wanting to do a winter or 4 season tarp, before you waterproof it?
3. Does anyone have a pattern to a winter or 4 season tarp? I seen a couple of pics but none with dimensions and I would prefer not to have to reinvent the wheel..so to say.
4. If you have to set it up, I assume it would be the same way that you would pitch the tarp, when they say they brushed both sides is that the left and right sides or is that the inside and the outside?
5. Finally, I think, will the mineral spirits evaporate when it is cold outside?
raiffnuke
11-16-2012, 08:25
ok, I just sat and read 45 pages of posts, replies, and comments. So just a few questions.
1. If you have the material, is it cheaper to do this vs. going out and buying silnylon?
2. Do you sew the tarp, since I am wanting to do a winter or 4 season tarp, before you waterproof it?
3. Does anyone have a pattern to a winter or 4 season tarp? I seen a couple of pics but none with dimensions and I would prefer not to have to reinvent the wheel..so to say.4. If you have to set it up, I assume it would be the same way that you would pitch the tarp, when they say they brushed both sides is that the left and right sides or is that the inside and the outside?
5. Finally, I think, will the mineral spirits evaporate when it is cold outside?
I can only really help you with #3.
http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=35955&d=1338322453
ge.jeffers
11-16-2012, 10:37
Thanks to Raiffnuke... this will be very useful. Thanks again
bowl-maker
11-16-2012, 11:29
+1 on the Winter Tarp from Backwoods Daydreamer!
I made my Winter Tarp from that design, and I love it!
I added velcro to the doors, and PVC across the top.
@ ge.jeffers
To answer the question of why anyone would want to go through this awfully messy procedure, it is certainly NOT cost! Silnylon is cheap and it's reliable. Homemade versions either leak or the silicon is so thick that weighs significantly more than commercial silnylon. Or worse yet, both!
The ONLY reason I can think of to do this is that you want a camo tarp in 1.1oz/sy or lighter. A commercial camo silnylon doesn't exist at this weight. I think I would rather throw a couple of vines over my tarp to "camo" it.
But if you feel that you must do penitence for some past evil deed, you meed ti scrape the first couple of coats into the top side and bottom side - not just spread it on the surface.
Commercial silnylon is IMPREGNATED with silicon (as opposed to a PU "coated" tarp. The silicon needs to get down into the fabric to fill the voids between the weave. The last coat can be left in the surface. And yes, the tarp needs to be pitched tight and left standing to dry.
Silnylon 30d seconds (which is fine for a tarp) can be bought for $5.50 per linear yard, 62" wide at www.diygearsupply.com
Dustb2000
11-17-2012, 02:24
About 3 months ago I followed the directions on this thread to seal an asym and a hex tarp I put together. I've only used them a handful of times in rainy weather so while it is too early to speak on how durable these tarps are but they are definitely waterproof. The only times I've gotten wet was while using the asym in a windy storm but that was only on the ends and I believe that was more of a function of my tarp not providing adequate coverage. The hex has been set up in 2 storms with high winds and heavy rain and performed beautifully.
ok, I just sat and read 45 pages of posts, replies, and comments. So just a few questions.
1. If you have the material, is it cheaper to do this vs. going out and buying silnylon?
For me it was cheaper in the sense that I had a large roll of fabric that I had sitting in my closet that I purchased from magna fabrics. I had ordered 50 yards at $1.25 a yard and had a good bit left from my DIY WBBB, IX underquilt, and climashield top quilt projects. Also I already had some clear silicon in the garage from an earlier home improvement job. So the only real expense I had was purchasing the mineral spirits and a few plastic D-rings from DIYGearSupply. Although I was risking wasting a few yards of fabric if it didn't turn out well I decided to give it a shot since I didn't have any other plans for the material.
2. Do you sew the tarp, since I am wanting to do a winter or 4 season tarp, before you waterproof it?
Yes I sewed mine before hand. I made sure to add all my tie outs and grosgrain as well before attempting to seal the material.
4. If you have to set it up, I assume it would be the same way that you would pitch the tarp, when they say they brushed both sides is that the left and right sides or is that the inside and the outside?
I only brushed the outside of mine after setting the tarp up as I normally would. I am unsure if this is the ideal way to apply the silicon but it worked for me. I made sure to apply several very thin layers until I felt it was adequately covered.
5. Finally, I think, will the mineral spirits evaporate when it is cold outside?
Since I live in south Mississippi I have no idea how the cold would affect applying the silicon. Around here we start commenting on how cold the weather is as soon as it begins dropping below 45° F at night!
Overall if you’re having to buy all the materials I would recommend just buying the silnylon from Scott at DIYGearSupply. He has great prices and I’ve been very satisfied with all the orders I've placed with him. You won’t have to spend that much more and the quality will definitely be higher. Now on the other hand if you already have some left over fabric from another project or already have silicone then it is a fun project and I do think it’s a good learning experience. Now I feel comfortable applying silicone to my tarp and if I ever had to do repairs on a silnylon tarp I would feel more comfortable working with the materials.
I feel like this is the same debate that always goes on when considering going the DIY route or purchasing from the amazing cottage vendors that are present on this site. Overall their quality is top of the line and the prices are hard to beat. Now on the other hand assembling your own gear can be just as rewarding (and addicting) as actually using the gear!
HURTHEART
11-17-2012, 11:29
good test. it would be great if you could come up w/ some kind of double roller, about 6' wide to run it through or pull it through & squeeze the excess away.
I am showing my age. Old fashion washing machines had a add on called a "Wringer". Old washing machines were called Wringer-washing-machines.
I have seen these nasty things separate from the washer. Something like that could be used for all kinds of things that you wanted to run between two pressure plates or rollers. You can adjust the wringer to the tension you want, they can be manual or electric.
Then again you could get crazy and wild, bring the whole machine home. They are great for washing filthy work clothes, they do an amazing job, and recyle the water also.
GUYS, DO NOT SURPRISE YOU LADY WITH ONE OF THESE. SHE WILL NOT BE PLEASED.
ahhhgladius
12-05-2012, 06:42
i have some new ideas for making silnyl. if anyone has 1'x1' leftovers of 1.1 and 1.4 i would love them. ill even take m50 scraps as well. must be as close to 1'x1' as possible. i am attempting to improve the at home diy silnyl process. so if youd like to donate. pm me for my address
Klaussinator
01-02-2013, 22:45
bump . . . . (into another year)
Any update on this new & improved process?
-Klauss
I did not read through all the posts, but I was planning on following this method. Straightforward, do a lot of material and proof a few sacks as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UTZPllgqSc
I am showing my age. Old fashion washing machines had a add on called a "Wringer". Old washing machines were called Wringer-washing-machines.
I have seen these nasty things separate from the washer. Something like that could be used for all kinds of things that you wanted to run between two pressure plates or rollers. You can adjust the wringer to the tension you want, they can be manual or electric.
Then again you could get crazy and wild, bring the whole machine home. They are great for washing filthy work clothes, they do an amazing job, and recyle the water also.
GUYS, DO NOT SURPRISE YOU LADY WITH ONE OF THESE. SHE WILL NOT BE PLEASED.
I wonder if a mop wringer would suffice?
simply_light
01-30-2013, 13:50
Definitely like the wider color options that would be available.
Do you have to squeegee it off after dunking?
Boulderman
03-06-2013, 18:29
Just for fun, I made a tarp for the *GASP* ground out of jo-ann's ripstop. It's the first tarp I've made, and learned a lot. Cat cuts on all edges, grosgrain tie outs, etc. Happy with how it turned out, don't know if I'll ever use it.
To mix the sil, I put the silicone in an empty milk gallon and then eyeballed an appropriate amount of mineral spirits and then shook it all together. The mix was viscous enough to brush on with a bristle brush. I did one side, then flipped it over and did the other, just to be sure. I then wiped the whole thing down with paper towels to absorb any excess. If anything, I erred on the side of applying too much, but I didn't want to do too little...
It's still drying/curing outside, so I don't know how heavy it is yet. It was about 9 oz before sil application.
Okay, so I read all 537 pages of this thread and I didn't see if anyone actually tried the concrete/masonry/tile sealer.
anyone, anyone? Bueller?
WalksIn2Trees
04-19-2013, 16:25
woah.... finally got to the last post!
I can understand why people want to be lazy and not read such a long thread end to end, but for a project like this, it becomes critical when there are so many variations of methods and proportioning being tried.
For instance, way back there is a link to an article (http://jwbasecamp.com/Articles/Silnylon1/index.html#Description) which makes known the 3:1 ratio for mineral spirits and gives the reason why, and stressed the importance of correct measure. Later, a post was made referencing the use of naptha which used the ratio 5:1. Since then everyone following has been using every mixture in between, some even eyeballing it, probably because they missed that post from not reading...reading is fundamental....
so for the benefit of others after this post here is what I've gleaned so far just from reading:
:eek:USE Personal Protection Equipment! Mineral spirits and other chemicals will destroy those cheap disposable gloves, exposing your skin to absorbtion. I have those big thick green gloves that go to the elbow, not sure where to get them because I got mine from work and haven't had to replace them yet. I also prefer a full face shield over goggles, it has better visibility and I don't feel so claustrophobic. Damage to your eyes is forever and so is exposure to some chemicals, always read the MSDS sheets. (I was doing preventative maintenance on a processor one day and a pressman comes in and dips his bare finger into the developer asking "this isn't corrosive is it?" "um yeah... it's corrosive 8... the highest the scale goes, go wash your hands in soap and COLD, COLD, water." Mind you, I'm wearing a chemical resistent apron, full face shield, and elbow length chemical gloves)
Mix: 3 parts mineral spirits to 1 part exterior silicone or bath and shower (do not use waterbased interior/exterior or painters because it will dissolve in water after it cures) NOTE: air bubbles from mixing and application are the enemy!
Soaking the fabric seems to ensure better penetration into the fabric so long as you work the fabric enough to remove air bubbles
brushing or sponging using a back-brushing technique (paint 3 rows at a time, each time starting one row below your previous first row to ensure overlapping coverage) can also be adequate but there's a greater chance of missed spots and introducing air bubbles. just like when painting, always try to stay ahead of the drying, maintaining a "wet edge" and don't overwork the sil during application (going back over it after it's begun to dry) or it won't bond properly.
set up your project as you would if you were using it for sil application and drying. This will ensure that the stresses of real-life use are actively in place and all threads are exposed that would normally be during use. High-stress points are along the ridge-line and at any tie-outs. If you apply the sil and then stress it you'll be opening up voids that were not there when you soaked it.
Pre-treat any reinforcement fabric that will add an extra layer to ensure that it gets penetrated on both sides.
from the look of things I'd say the best practice would be to soak it first, then hang it as for use, then brush over it again while it's still wet, paying strict attention to the stress points.
Squeegee: I could be wrong but I doubt a squeegee would really be very effective for this. screen printing inks are very thick and has to be forced through the threads in comparison to this dilution of sil and I saw many posts where people said they had no problem sponging it on.
rollers: I used to work in prepress dept for RR Donnelley and the processors we used for film and printing plates pushed the sheet beneath a spraybar, through a chemical bath, squeegeed it off on the other side, rinsed under another spray bar, followed by a heated blower that dried it. the difference is that film and printing plates are fairly rigid compared to fabric, so to make this work you'd have to come up with a way to splice on a sheet aluminum leader to your fabric. the other issue is that it's only 3 feet wide which is definitely not going to accomodate a full tarp. I'm not sure how many printing companies are still using film these days, so if you watch for when they go out of business you might be able to pick up a Kodak Polychrome film or plate processor for pretty cheap. Likewise for vacuum tables and parts for them such as the pumps. When my local plant closed I came home with a vacuum pump, desk, and a light-table for a total cost of $15.
I haven't personally tried any of this stuff I've been reading yet, in fact I've only just joined, having found my way here via a youtube video from one of you about making a hammock. I've been camping and hiking my whole life, but only with my North Face Cumulus tent which is wearing out and heavy, and never for any extended trips, only ever day hikes and canoe camping where you find a site and explore the surrounding area. For the last year though I've been cycling in preparation for some cross-country trips I want to do, and I've been commuting to work by bicycle for the last 7 months. I'm looking to reduce my pack weight in essentials so and so I thought maybe a hammock or a bivy, and from what I've seen on here, I'm swaying heavily towards the hammock.
Curmudgeon
04-19-2013, 19:56
Thanks for the easy-to-follow recap! Subscribed so I can find this again when I want to try my own sil-nylon...
Finely finished my DIY tarp I made from some very thin material, (most likely polyester). I couldn't track down any mineral spirits, as it is quite hard to find here in Tokyo... Instead I used a 3:1 mix of paint thinner (900ml) and silicone(300ml). The paint thinner is really stinky stuff and I was worried that the tarp would have a strong lingering smell. I'm happy to say that is does not after one full day of hanging in nasty humid Tokyo weather.
The mix set up quite fast, I didn't have as much time as I would have liked to smooth things out with a sponge.
For application, I just mixed the goo in a thick plastic bag then stuffed the whole thing in, kneading like bread to make sure I got full coverage.
I squeezed out as much of the goo as I could, then hung it tight and quickly went to work wiping it with a sponge.
I haven't weight it yet, but it is definitely heavier than before.
I'll try it out soon in the rain, but it seems like it is going to work just fine.
https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=51995&stc=1&d=1372001597
Awesome thread, this could provide for a much sought after camoflauge silnylon!
Awesome thread, this could provide for a much sought after camoflauge silnylon!
That was my motivation for doing it.
WONDERFUL SYNOPSIS!!!
Lot of effort and time.
Thank you
Tom
woah.... finally got to the last post!
I can understand why people want to be lazy and not read such a long thread end to end, but for a project like this, it becomes critical when there are so many variations of methods and proportioning being tried.
For instance, way back there is a link to an article (http://jwbasecamp.com/Articles/Silnylon1/index.html#Description) which makes known the 3:1 ratio for mineral spirits and gives the reason why, and stressed the importance of correct measure. Later, a post was made referencing the use of naptha which used the ratio 5:1. Since then everyone following has been using every mixture in between, some even eyeballing it, probably because they missed that post from not reading...reading is fundamental....
so for the benefit of others after this post here is what I've gleaned so far just from reading:
:eek:USE Personal Protection Equipment! Mineral spirits and other chemicals will destroy those cheap disposable gloves, exposing your skin to absorbtion. I have those big thick green gloves that go to the elbow, not sure where to get them because I got mine from work and haven't had to replace them yet. I also prefer a full face shield over goggles, it has better visibility and I don't feel so claustrophobic. Damage to your eyes is forever and so is exposure to some chemicals, always read the MSDS sheets. (I was doing preventative maintenance on a processor one day and a pressman comes in and dips his bare finger into the developer asking "this isn't corrosive is it?" "um yeah... it's corrosive 8... the highest the scale goes, go wash your hands in soap and COLD, COLD, water." Mind you, I'm wearing a chemical resistent apron, full face shield, and elbow length chemical gloves)
Mix: 3 parts mineral spirits to 1 part exterior silicone or bath and shower (do not use waterbased interior/exterior or painters because it will dissolve in water after it cures) NOTE: air bubbles from mixing and application are the enemy!
Soaking the fabric seems to ensure better penetration into the fabric so long as you work the fabric enough to remove air bubbles
brushing or sponging using a back-brushing technique (paint 3 rows at a time, each time starting one row below your previous first row to ensure overlapping coverage) can also be adequate but there's a greater chance of missed spots and introducing air bubbles. just like when painting, always try to stay ahead of the drying, maintaining a "wet edge" and don't overwork the sil during application (going back over it after it's begun to dry) or it won't bond properly.
set up your project as you would if you were using it for sil application and drying. This will ensure that the stresses of real-life use are actively in place and all threads are exposed that would normally be during use. High-stress points are along the ridge-line and at any tie-outs. If you apply the sil and then stress it you'll be opening up voids that were not there when you soaked it.
Pre-treat any reinforcement fabric that will add an extra layer to ensure that it gets penetrated on both sides.
from the look of things I'd say the best practice would be to soak it first, then hang it as for use, then brush over it again while it's still wet, paying strict attention to the stress points.
Squeegee: I could be wrong but I doubt a squeegee would really be very effective for this. screen printing inks are very thick and has to be forced through the threads in comparison to this dilution of sil and I saw many posts where people said they had no problem sponging it on.
rollers: I used to work in prepress dept for RR Donnelley and the processors we used for film and printing plates pushed the sheet beneath a spraybar, through a chemical bath, squeegeed it off on the other side, rinsed under another spray bar, followed by a heated blower that dried it. the difference is that film and printing plates are fairly rigid compared to fabric, so to make this work you'd have to come up with a way to splice on a sheet aluminum leader to your fabric. the other issue is that it's only 3 feet wide which is definitely not going to accomodate a full tarp. I'm not sure how many printing companies are still using film these days, so if you watch for when they go out of business you might be able to pick up a Kodak Polychrome film or plate processor for pretty cheap. Likewise for vacuum tables and parts for them such as the pumps. When my local plant closed I came home with a vacuum pump, desk, and a light-table for a total cost of $15.
I haven't personally tried any of this stuff I've been reading yet, in fact I've only just joined, having found my way here via a youtube video from one of you about making a hammock. I've been camping and hiking my whole life, but only with my North Face Cumulus tent which is wearing out and heavy, and never for any extended trips, only ever day hikes and canoe camping where you find a site and explore the surrounding area. For the last year though I've been cycling in preparation for some cross-country trips I want to do, and I've been commuting to work by bicycle for the last 7 months. I'm looking to reduce my pack weight in essentials so and so I thought maybe a hammock or a bivy, and from what I've seen on here, I'm swaying heavily towards the hammock.
crackmaggot
10-09-2013, 09:53
How long did you allow the mixture to soak in? Was it just a matter of kneading it for a bit and then it was good to go?
Finely finished my DIY tarp I made from some very thin material, (most likely polyester). I couldn't track down any mineral spirits, as it is quite hard to find here in Tokyo... Instead I used a 3:1 mix of paint thinner (900ml) and silicone(300ml). The paint thinner is really stinky stuff and I was worried that the tarp would have a strong lingering smell. I'm happy to say that is does not after one full day of hanging in nasty humid Tokyo weather.
The mix set up quite fast, I didn't have as much time as I would have liked to smooth things out with a sponge.
For application, I just mixed the goo in a thick plastic bag then stuffed the whole thing in, kneading like bread to make sure I got full coverage.
I squeezed out as much of the goo as I could, then hung it tight and quickly went to work wiping it with a sponge.
I haven't weight it yet, but it is definitely heavier than before.
I'll try it out soon in the rain, but it seems like it is going to work just fine.
https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=51995&stc=1&d=1372001597
Time isn't important. The most important thing is making sure the mixture gets squeezed into all of the fabric.
If you just bunch up the tarp in the mixture and knead it, the entire tarp will get wet but only the outer parts will get enough sil. The layers of fabric that make up the bunch filter out the sil and prevent it from getting deep into the bunch.
Put the tarp in the mixture and knead it. Then pull it out, rearrange the fabric and repeat. And repeat. And repeat...
allhansondeck
11-05-2013, 14:40
There is a video on You Tube of this procedure. I believe the mix was 2 qts. min. spirits to a tube of silicone. He fastened 3 nylon ties to the bottom of a shaft attached to an electric drill for the mixing.
Check it out
New2trees
11-06-2013, 05:57
Finely finished my DIY tarp I made from some very thin material, (most likely polyester). I couldn't track down any mineral spirits, as it is quite hard to find here in Tokyo... Instead I used a 3:1 mix of paint thinner (900ml) and silicone(300ml). The paint thinner is really stinky stuff and I was worried that the tarp would have a strong lingering smell. I'm happy to say that is does not after one full day of hanging in nasty humid Tokyo weather.
The mix set up quite fast, I didn't have as much time as I would have liked to smooth things out with a sponge.
For application, I just mixed the goo in a thick plastic bag then stuffed the whole thing in, kneading like bread to make sure I got full coverage.
I squeezed out as much of the goo as I could, then hung it tight and quickly went to work wiping it with a sponge.
I haven't weight it yet, but it is definitely heavier than before.
I'll try it out soon in the rain, but it seems like it is going to work just fine.
https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=51995&stc=1&d=1372001597
Looks Very good for a DIY tarp :)
New2trees
11-06-2013, 05:58
woah.... finally got to the last post!
I can understand why people want to be lazy and not read such a long thread end to end, but for a project like this, it becomes critical when there are so many variations of methods and proportioning being tried.
For instance, way back there is a link to an article (http://jwbasecamp.com/Articles/Silnylon1/index.html#Description) which makes known the 3:1 ratio for mineral spirits and gives the reason why, and stressed the importance of correct measure. Later, a post was made referencing the use of naptha which used the ratio 5:1. Since then everyone following has been using every mixture in between, some even eyeballing it, probably because they missed that post from not reading...reading is fundamental....
so for the benefit of others after this post here is what I've gleaned so far just from reading:
:eek:USE Personal Protection Equipment! Mineral spirits and other chemicals will destroy those cheap disposable gloves, exposing your skin to absorbtion. I have those big thick green gloves that go to the elbow, not sure where to get them because I got mine from work and haven't had to replace them yet. I also prefer a full face shield over goggles, it has better visibility and I don't feel so claustrophobic. Damage to your eyes is forever and so is exposure to some chemicals, always read the MSDS sheets. (I was doing preventative maintenance on a processor one day and a pressman comes in and dips his bare finger into the developer asking "this isn't corrosive is it?" "um yeah... it's corrosive 8... the highest the scale goes, go wash your hands in soap and COLD, COLD, water." Mind you, I'm wearing a chemical resistent apron, full face shield, and elbow length chemical gloves)
Mix: 3 parts mineral spirits to 1 part exterior silicone or bath and shower (do not use waterbased interior/exterior or painters because it will dissolve in water after it cures) NOTE: air bubbles from mixing and application are the enemy!
Soaking the fabric seems to ensure better penetration into the fabric so long as you work the fabric enough to remove air bubbles
brushing or sponging using a back-brushing technique (paint 3 rows at a time, each time starting one row below your previous first row to ensure overlapping coverage) can also be adequate but there's a greater chance of missed spots and introducing air bubbles. just like when painting, always try to stay ahead of the drying, maintaining a "wet edge" and don't overwork the sil during application (going back over it after it's begun to dry) or it won't bond properly.
set up your project as you would if you were using it for sil application and drying. This will ensure that the stresses of real-life use are actively in place and all threads are exposed that would normally be during use. High-stress points are along the ridge-line and at any tie-outs. If you apply the sil and then stress it you'll be opening up voids that were not there when you soaked it.
Pre-treat any reinforcement fabric that will add an extra layer to ensure that it gets penetrated on both sides.
from the look of things I'd say the best practice would be to soak it first, then hang it as for use, then brush over it again while it's still wet, paying strict attention to the stress points.
Squeegee: I could be wrong but I doubt a squeegee would really be very effective for this. screen printing inks are very thick and has to be forced through the threads in comparison to this dilution of sil and I saw many posts where people said they had no problem sponging it on.
rollers: I used to work in prepress dept for RR Donnelley and the processors we used for film and printing plates pushed the sheet beneath a spraybar, through a chemical bath, squeegeed it off on the other side, rinsed under another spray bar, followed by a heated blower that dried it. the difference is that film and printing plates are fairly rigid compared to fabric, so to make this work you'd have to come up with a way to splice on a sheet aluminum leader to your fabric. the other issue is that it's only 3 feet wide which is definitely not going to accomodate a full tarp. I'm not sure how many printing companies are still using film these days, so if you watch for when they go out of business you might be able to pick up a Kodak Polychrome film or plate processor for pretty cheap. Likewise for vacuum tables and parts for them such as the pumps. When my local plant closed I came home with a vacuum pump, desk, and a light-table for a total cost of $15.
I haven't personally tried any of this stuff I've been reading yet, in fact I've only just joined, having found my way here via a youtube video from one of you about making a hammock. I've been camping and hiking my whole life, but only with my North Face Cumulus tent which is wearing out and heavy, and never for any extended trips, only ever day hikes and canoe camping where you find a site and explore the surrounding area. For the last year though I've been cycling in preparation for some cross-country trips I want to do, and I've been commuting to work by bicycle for the last 7 months. I'm looking to reduce my pack weight in essentials so and so I thought maybe a hammock or a bivy, and from what I've seen on here, I'm swaying heavily towards the hammock.
Thank you for the recap:)
For drying, daytime temps here are in the mid 40's night , down into the 20's.. Did I miss the window to make myself a tarp?
I don't have an interior space big enough for something tarp sized
croaker choker
02-14-2014, 20:34
So I did it, Used the 3 to 1 ratio, and it works. I was concerned about texture, looks, color to fabric, and most of all, wasting money.
texture-fills and looks just like 1.9oz 70d rilstop silnylon
looks-great,
croaker choker
02-14-2014, 20:42
FAT FINGER
color-not enough change to notice
waste-absolutely not. I will be making another for my son
$5.19 %100 silicone in tube 10.2oz
$13.99 mineral spirits low odor, half gallon
croaker choker
02-14-2014, 20:48
oh yah, did it after dark in the back yard so the mineral spirits would not evaporate so fast. The next day was sunny and all was dry. tested it with the water hose, 100% no leaks. will leave it out one more day, just to make sru everything cures.
Thanks for every ones input, and the forum
CamoDeafie82
02-16-2014, 17:42
planning to do this after I sew up my tarp in March..... I've a question, has anyone attempted to use this product?
http://www.amazon.com/Atsko-Silicone-Water-Guard-10-5-oz/dp/B0001FYL2M
from the product description, it seems more for seam sealing and restoring waterproofness to boots or fabrics...?
croaker choker
02-20-2014, 12:13
I tried it along with 5 other products on test pieces, including seam sealer. sprey it on let it dry per instruction. Putting sample over a cup and fill with water. BUT after crumbling the samples a few times ( pack and set up). All failed within seconds. Spend the $10-20 and do it right the first time.
Apologies if this is repeating information that is already in this thread somewhere, thought I'd post up some quick calculations. It sounds like a lot of people are using either one or two quarts of mineral spirits to one tube of silicone. If my math is right, that gets you either about 2.5 or 4.8 to 1 ratio. It looks like by volume, you would need 40.3 fluid ounces mineral spirits and 10.1 fluid ounces of 100% silicone (roughly one full tube) to achieve a 3:1 weight ratio.
In short, for low-odor mineral spirits and 100% silicone sealant, a 4:1 volume ratio gets you to the desired 3:1 weight ratio. I think Shug once said something like "Bigfoot's not going to care if it's perfect", and that may well apply here.
Hope this helps.
Algonquin_bound
04-12-2014, 22:41
Has anyone tried a silicone treatment for tents like the link below for their tarps?
http://reviews.canadiantire.ca/9045/0765308P/escort-escort-silicone-waterproofing-liquid-946-ml-reviews/reviews.htm
I know I can get that easily locally.... No idea how good it is, wondering if anyone has tried something similiar???
After my hammock build, I will easily have enough 1.1 'pure finish' ripstop left to build a good size tarp. Would be great if I could use the extra material for a DIY tarp.
Seems like it might potentially work better than the silicone caulking and mineral spirits option, but maybe not? Hoping that soaking a tarp in this for a day or so, then drying would give a waterproof finish..... No idea though... looking for some feedback!
Maybe it would still be leaky under tension? Or maybe seal better if applied with the tarp setup under tension, and not just soaked in a bucket??
Any input appreciated... Thanks!
Thanks!
Tlcseven
05-02-2014, 11:13
Looks like we have been at this for 7 years, anyone have a 5+ year old tarp made this way that is still holding up and being used??
Hi I have read almost all this thread and I wonder if anyone try to apply the mixture with a spray bottle?
Zentoast
07-08-2014, 15:00
I would not recommend spray. Using a brush to work the material into the fibers will provide a much better seal. Spray, simply lays the product on top and does not impregnate the material.
I thought of the possibility to apply several thin layers and and use a brush.
Zentoast
07-08-2014, 16:37
I am a journeyman painter. You could spray and back brush, but I would not recommend it. You will get a much better, thicker, even coat if you just brush it.
Thanks I will try only with brush.
Zentoast
07-08-2014, 17:21
move quickly and evenly, and do it when its very cool outside. The harder it is the faster the silicon will set up and dry on the brush.
Camping With Ken
07-20-2014, 05:29
I just put the final touches on a 12'X10' Winter Tarp, following the DIY Gear pattern. I used the 1.1 oz. Woodland camo form DIY Gear as well, simply because I have yet to spot the now almost mythical "Walmart $1 Bin". I'm beginning to wonder if it's the same place where the snipes hang out. :lol:
Anyway, after scouring this forum, youtube, and a few other places, I decided on using the 4:1 ratio of 100% clear silicone and odorless mineral spirits. I mixed this in a 5 gallon bucket with a little gadget I made out of wire coat hangers that looks just like a whisk and a cordless drill. I mixed this concoction for a good ten minutes.... until I had a 3 inch layer of foam I had to let settle, and then I dunked and very thoroughly worked and kneaded the tarp for another 10 minutes or so.
I make a lot of stuff and actually constructed somewhat of a testing area in my backyard that doubles as a campsite when I get the urge. So I hung the tarp and pitched it taut. I wiped the excess off using a foam brush, and let it dry... which took all of about 4 hours in the Arizona sun.
I brought it inside and let it 'cure' for another couple of days then rehung it for the test. The wifey-poo hit me with everything from 'fine mist' to 'shower' to 'jet' and not a drop. I was quite pleased.
Upon closer inspection, I had some white build up in a few places that seems to just flake off without affecting the water-proofing in that area.
I added tarp-tensioners from Just Jeff's page, http://www.tothewoods.net/HomemadeGearTarpTensioner2.html
and I'm ready to take it out for it's maiden voyage sometime this week.
Next tarp, I'm going to try letting the silicone/mineral spirit mixture to sit in a jar for a couple of days, shaking it up every time I walk passed it.
I really do believe the secret to success with this method is the making sure the silicone is completely dissolved in the mineral spirits before soaking or applying.
My question at this point is would sealing the ridgeline seam be over-kill?
89722
FJRpilot
07-20-2014, 08:13
I just put the final touches on a 12'X10' Winter Tarp, following the DIY Gear pattern.
and I'm ready to take it out for it's maiden voyage sometime this week.
My question at this point is would sealing the ridgeline seam be over-kill?
Looks really nice, great job! I personally wouldn't worry about the Ridgeline. I think you got it...
Lead Farmer
09-21-2014, 13:52
as far as the mineral spirits goes, does it have to be clear? i saw a you tube video and the guy had the green mineral spirits, which is white instead of clear. he had issues with water seeping through. watching the video i noticed that it didn't look like a consistent coverage but can't be sure what mistakes were made.
becomingamountainman
12-14-2014, 14:01
I just put the final touches on a 12'X10' Winter Tarp, following the DIY Gear pattern. I used the 1.1 oz. Woodland camo form DIY Gear as well, simply because I have yet to spot the now almost mythical "Walmart $1 Bin". I'm beginning to wonder if it's the same place where the snipes hang out. :lol:
Anyway, after scouring this forum, youtube, and a few other places, I decided on using the 4:1 ratio of 100% clear silicone and odorless mineral spirits. I mixed this in a 5 gallon bucket with a little gadget I made out of wire coat hangers that looks just like a whisk and a cordless drill. I mixed this concoction for a good ten minutes.... until I had a 3 inch layer of foam I had to let settle, and then I dunked and very thoroughly worked and kneaded the tarp for another 10 minutes or so.
I make a lot of stuff and actually constructed somewhat of a testing area in my backyard that doubles as a campsite when I get the urge. So I hung the tarp and pitched it taut. I wiped the excess off using a foam brush, and let it dry... which took all of about 4 hours in the Arizona sun.
I brought it inside and let it 'cure' for another couple of days then rehung it for the test. The wifey-poo hit me with everything from 'fine mist' to 'shower' to 'jet' and not a drop. I was quite pleased.
Upon closer inspection, I had some white build up in a few places that seems to just flake off without affecting the water-proofing in that area.
I added tarp-tensioners from Just Jeff's page, http://www.tothewoods.net/HomemadeGearTarpTensioner2.html
and I'm ready to take it out for it's maiden voyage sometime this week.
Next tarp, I'm going to try letting the silicone/mineral spirit mixture to sit in a jar for a couple of days, shaking it up every time I walk passed it.
I really do believe the secret to success with this method is the making sure the silicone is completely dissolved in the mineral spirits before soaking or applying.
My question at this point is would sealing the ridgeline seam be over-kill?
89722
Great setup... Making one now myself in preparation for JMT
JJBrewbus
12-22-2014, 05:21
I read about 20 pages of this thread but didn't find what I need to know.
I'm in a third world country and there is no such thing as "Odourless mineral spirits", let alone Silnylon.
Does anyone have any suggestions about a simple chemical, available the world over, that would dissolve silicon but not leave a kerosene-ish stink?
Would medical alcohol do it?
J
I read about 20 pages of this thread but didn't find what I need to know.
I'm in a third world country and there is no such thing as "Odourless mineral spirits", let alone Silnylon.
Does anyone have any suggestions about a simple chemical, available the world over, that would dissolve silicon but not leave a kerosene-ish stink?
Would medical alcohol do it?
J
Not sure, but here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_spirit) is a link to the Wikipedia article on mineral spirits. It may help you find a similar domestic product.
Hope it helps!
Algonquin_bound
12-22-2014, 22:15
Given your location, probably will just have to use whatever is available. I've never seen 'odorless' mineral spirits here in Canada, but have seen 'low odor' being sold. I suspect they are the same, as I have a hard time believing that they could make paint thinner actually odorless. I could be wrong, but I'd be surprised. Turpentine, varsol, mineral spirits etc. would all work. Maybe different names where you are? Would think any available general 'paint thinner' would work, but don't use lacquer thinner.... I doubt that would be available for you anyway.
Use what you can get, and just let it air out or wash a bit until the odor is not an issue. You wouldn't be the first to use 'non' odorless mineral spirits on their tarp!
JJBrewbus
12-24-2014, 02:48
Use what you can get, and just let it air out or wash a bit until the odor is not an issue. You wouldn't be the first to use 'non' odorless mineral spirits on their tarp!
Hmm... I heard and read in a few places that normal turpentine / white spirit / thinners, etc should all be avoided because that kerosene-like smell stays with you 'forever'! But, is that just an exaggeration?
Maybe medical alcohol would be better. I shall have to experiment. Thanks :thumbup1:
Algonquin_bound
12-24-2014, 10:16
That is quite possible..... I've never tried it myself.
Maybe washing in peroxide and baking soda, (or just baking soda??) would help with the smell?? Best of luck!
You know, when silicone cures, it "off gasses" a distinct vinegar odor.
I would try some white vinegar on a test sample? You never know until you try.
Good luck. I've done this process, and am happy with the results, (Not with vinegar though)
Take it easy,
gmcpcs
corrumpu
12-31-2014, 11:55
Can you keep this mixed in a sealed container for use whenever you need it?
Also can you change the ratios for use as a seam sealant?
Algonquin_bound
12-31-2014, 12:53
I imagine you could, just give it a shake once and a while. Might be some length of shelf life on it though, but maybe not... I really couldn't don't know either way.
Seam sealer is just straight silicone... no thinning.
WalksIn2Trees
04-29-2015, 14:58
The ideal method of application would be to find, clean, and use a printing plate processor if you could find one wide enough. Granted this would be expensive... unless you DIY i. The basic components are: a drive roller-set, soaking bath tank, a squeegee roller-set. If the bath isn't enough, add a spray-bar after the squeegee rollers, after which would need a second set of squeegees, finishing up with a drier blower. I doubt youd need a rinsing spraybar stage before the drier but most of the commercially made processors will have that built in
Algonquin_bound
04-29-2015, 23:23
The ideal method of application would be to find, clean, and use a printing plate processor if you could find one wide enough. Granted this would be expensive... unless you DIY i. The basic components are: a drive roller-set, soaking bath tank, a squeegee roller-set. If the bath isn't enough, add a spray-bar after the squeegee rollers, after which would need a second set of squeegees, finishing up with a drier blower. I doubt youd need a rinsing spraybar stage before the drier but most of the commercially made processors will have that built in
Which, uh......(no offense.....)..... takes this way out of the realm of DIY. Even for those with the space and resources to DIY a small industrial complex. Seriously not trying to be insulting, but that is just crazy....not DIY gear stuff. (sorry!!! but thanks for the reply!) Detail for those wishing to refine i guess!