View Full Version : Question on garda hitch with rings
Sorry if this has been asked to death. I searched and saw a few references, but no definitive answer, I don't think.
Does anyone have experience using the garda hitch to attach their hammock support ropes to a pair of rings?
If so, do the rings have to be held close together, i.e. sewn into a small loop in one end of a strap, or could you have one on either end of a long strap that would meet in the front (hammock side) of a tree that you could then tie your rope to with the garda?
Thanks in advance for any help.
NCPatrick
11-06-2007, 11:21
Patrick, here's a link (http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php?p=24869#post24869) that talks about the garda hitch...
Three minutes? Let's try to speed it up next time.
That thread is what got me on this. I certainly may have missed it, but I don't think there was a definitive answer on whether it was a rock-solid way to go was there?
NCPatrick
11-06-2007, 11:25
No, I didn't see the answer to your question there either, just thought it may be there somewhere...
Thanks. I think I went through the whole thing without finding anything concrete. Hopefully, someone will chime in with real experience and crazy garage test photos.
NCPatrick
11-06-2007, 11:49
Are you talking about something like this?
http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/files/7/0/0/hangingwithringsandrope.jpg (http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=1952&catid=member&imageuser=700)
Yes, thank you! Does that work? I was a little skeptical before, and seeing this makes me more so.
The difference in what I'd like to try is that my rings would be sewn into the straps. I'm curious to see if having a ring on either end of the strap and having them meet in front would work or if the angle there would mess things up. My thought is for the minimum amount of strap possible.
NCPatrick
11-06-2007, 11:56
That's a pic from TreeDweller's gallery. Hopefully he/she can answer this for you.
Interesting idea... what happens if you get to a really big tree?
NCPatrick
11-06-2007, 12:00
Here's another related(?) image...
http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/files/7/0/0/hangingwithonlyrings.jpg (http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=1953&c=member&imageuser=700)
Yes, that's what I was thinking. I'd love to put a ring on the other end of that strap so that you could lark's head it around the tree. I guess you'd need smaller rings for the "buckle" so that they'd fit through it. I've seen it done with a biner, but the ring would be lighter and simpler, obviously.
Even better would be a ring on either end like I was saying, but I have no idea if that would hold the garda properly.
I suspect it would mess up the system. The rings need to be able to "lock" together and stay reasonably aligned. Pulling on them with two separate ends of webbing isn't likely to do that very well.
But you can try it out and see. If you don't want to sew them in just tie them on with a larkshead or girth hitch to see if it works.
The whole point of the using a biner is so you don't have to thread the one end through. If you're going to do that just use a sewn loop on the end. No need for a ring.
NCPatrick
11-06-2007, 12:13
Oh, ok. That answers my "big tree" question. Very interesting idea!
Yeah, I haven't ruled out the loop in the end of the strap. I'm a little concerned about the wear on the strap, though. Seems like I've heard I'll get longer longevity with a piece of hardware in there. For 11g, I wouldn't mind doing that, but I guess the problem of finding small rings that would fit through the big one is a significant one. Maybe I'm overcomplicating that part of it.
Another idea that appeals to me for simplicity is the double rings attached to the hammock line and just a straight piece of webbing using Ed's four-wrap knot at the tree, then threading through the ring buckle. That would require no sewing of the strap at all.
The only drawback to that is that you wind up with kind of a lot of webbing.
NCPatrick
11-06-2007, 12:26
You might as well go with the 'biner, if you're going to do all that. Maybe less webbing required (no four-wrap) so the weight would balance out?
So many choices...
Seems like the goal is minimizing the webbing and the hardware.
I also spent forever reading that huge thread on the Nite Ize gizmos for this.
I really thought I'd be able to log in and do a search on "perfect adjustable suspension" and have a single, brilliant diagram.
LOL!
:D
We're still working on that... But the Fig 9 thread is the place where it'll happen.
Also you're REALLY unlikely to have significant wear issues with webbing on webbing (through a loop)... The wear issues reported have all been fine rope lines on webbing. Personally I like the biner (or C from the fig 9 thread) as the best option for convenience and short webbing. Then use line from the end of the webbing to the rings/hooks/slider on the hammock.
There isn't a big wear problem with the line on the webbing since its tied once and never moves again. Then you get a complete fully attached system that you only adjust. The problem comes in what you use for adjusters and who you have make them. The production of the hooks is on the new product list for my company, but we can only develop and introduce so many new products at a time and there are several in front of them.
Here's my setup:
http://lh5.google.com/mike.beganyi/RytSjSfwIAI/AAAAAAAADY0/yCwX_scD5xQ/s800/IMG_4255.JPG
Stock HH huggers larksheaded to rings. Biner for easy on / off the tree - this could be a larger loop to pass the rings through, but a biner isn't a bad thing to have around - makes getting the height correct after setup easy, and for the weight I'll diet first before I worry about it.
I run the line through the rings and I do a stopper knot - but I think with Tree Dwellers method I could forgo the stopper.
I'm going to sew some straps with larger loops - it will move the stitching further away from the rings - and I'll be able to pass the rings through the loop if I want to ditch the biner.
Rapt, I loved that thread and can't wait to see what you come up with.
bmike, that's almost exactly what I had in mind. Do you use this setup while hanging over broken glass and hungry crocs? I'm looking for a very secure solution. Could you expand on what Tree Dweller's method is and how and why you use the stopper knot?
I think what I'm starting to like the most is like what bmike has pictured, but maybe with just the sewn (or tied) loop instead of the biner and either the rings or some variation of the figure 9 for adjustment.
Rapt, I loved that thread and can't wait to see what you come up with.
bmike, that's almost exactly what I had in mind. Do you use this setup while hanging over broken glass and hungry crocs? I'm looking for a very secure solution. Could you expand on what Tree Dweller's method is and how and why you use the stopper knot?
I think what I'm starting to like the most is like what bmike has pictured, but maybe with just the sewn (or tied) loop instead of the biner and either the rings or some variation of the figure 9 for adjustment.
Pics are worth more than words, I think.
http://lh3.google.com/mike.beganyi/RzCzhifwIGI/AAAAAAAADaU/TuNKxvW6Ttc/s800/IMG_4258.JPG
http://lh6.google.com/mike.beganyi/RzCzgSfwIFI/AAAAAAAADaM/C6IHkBdsFMs/s800/IMG_4259.JPG
http://lh4.google.com/mike.beganyi/RzCzeyfwIEI/AAAAAAAADaE/rozQOWAWsLU/s800/IMG_4260.JPG
http://lh4.google.com/mike.beganyi/RzCzdyfwIDI/AAAAAAAADZ8/4WZPiOFVENw/s800/IMG_4262.JPG
http://lh5.google.com/mike.beganyi/RzCzdCfwICI/AAAAAAAADZ0/Zc-HBcFUSVI/s800/IMG_4263.JPG
http://lh5.google.com/mike.beganyi/RzCzcCfwIBI/AAAAAAAADZs/8bbZRi7NURU/s800/IMG_4264.JPG
I spent my first night in my hammock set like this... never worried about it. It slipped the first time I got in, so I added the additional wrap through the rings. That would probably hold on its own... but I added the stopper for security.
That's awesome, thank you. Can you still pull it tighter after the fourth picture (before the stopper)? I wouldn't mind tying the stopper after I'd gotten everything set up, but I'd like to be able to fiddle with everything, including sitting in the hammock, before doing so.
That's awesome, thank you. Can you still pull it tighter after the fourth picture (before the stopper)? I wouldn't mind tying the stopper after I'd gotten everything set up, but I'd like to be able to fiddle with everything, including sitting in the hammock, before doing so.
this is a bit different than treedweller's, i think.
yes, a bit.
but you need to unload the line, so i grab the line on the hammock side and pull towards the ring while i work the line through the rings. when you put any tension on either side of the line it wants to clamp down the rings... i usually undo the extra wrap - it takes a second and stays put when you let go.
Sounds perfect, thank you again. I'll search around for Tree Dweller's set-up.
I'll be messing with this as soon as all of my stuff comes in and I'll post a bunch of pictures and whatever info I come up with.
TreeDweller
11-06-2007, 18:33
Found your concerns about the garda hitch. I can confirm that using the garda hitch and rings is a wonderful way to hang. I find it really easy to set up. I have a HHUL and added SMC descending rings (I picked mine up at REI. They are cheap, light, and strong) to my stock tree straps with a simple girth hitch using the loop at one end of the strap.
The loops in the strap are too small to pass the rings through so I simply made a new loop using some 5mm accessory cord (again strong and from REI--strong because ropes lose up to 50% of their strength when knotted and because the forces on the line are much stronger than your own weight. The cord I used is rated 5.5kN or 1,250lbf). I used a double fisherman's knot to tie the loop (very strong).
I took the hammock out just this past weekend. I wanted to try my fleece/emergency blanket addition for cold weather hanging. It was the first time I tried the rings using the loops. I loved how fast it was to pass each strap around the tree, put the rings through the loop and then run the line through in the garda hitch. I then pulled the hammock from the stuff sack as I walked to the next tree to repeat the process. The hammock was up in no time and it never touched the ground. When I used to use the Hennessy knot I was always having the straps fall off the tree while I tried to get the line threaded through the loops.
The garda hitch easily pulls tight and since it is used in rock climbing and rescue I had no trouble trusting it with my weight. Just try pulling it from the hammock side and you'll see what I mean. You don't have to add any extra knot for safety and unlike running straps through the rings you don't have to worry they'll slip from misalignment. Thankfully after a night of hanging the lines have pulled enough to make releasing the hitch easy enough. (And yes, the rings have to be tied together on the side opposite the garda hitch for things to work.)
I like the site www.animatedknots.com for nice clear descriptions and examples for tying knots. If you don't have straps with loops sewn on the ends you can find other knots to use. A girth hitch could still hold the rings to one end though you'd need some kind of stopper knot too. A water knot could be used to make end loops perhaps.
I'll have to carry longer straps with me though (and since the rings aren't sewn on I can easily switch them to different straps). This trip was to a park full of redwoods. I was lucky to find two trees small enough to hang from. If the trees had been a little larger I would have skipped passing the rings through the loop on the other end of the strap and ran the line through the loop to the rings. A lot of the trees though were too big even for that. At several feet in diameter I'd need help even wrapping webbing around one.
Here are pictures of both ends of the hammock using the rings. As well as one of the hammock. The short one in the picture sleeps with dad in a tent.
http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/files/7/0/0/gardahitchandstuffsack.jpg
http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/files/7/0/0/gardahitch.jpg
http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/files/7/0/0/afteranightofhanging.jpg
hangnout
11-06-2007, 18:36
I have been using this type setup with no problems after seeing this on the original thread. I started out with the rings on the tree strap then changed to rings attached to hammock. I used Warbonnet's idea of attaching one end of the rope to my tree strap with a sheetbend and a loop in the other end for the biner (optional). This is basically the same thing as the webbing & rings just less webbing, more rope and the garda hitch in the rings.
hangnout
11-06-2007, 18:52
Also as you can see in Treedweller's pics when the rings are on the tree strap no modifications are needed to the hammock. You can take advantage of the rings and not cut the original ropes. That works for a little while and then you get the DIY bug and out comes the knife and scissors:D
Thanks, TreeDweller. I picked up four of those same rings from REI on the way home tonight and look forward to giving it a go.
I'm using homemade tree-huggers now, but I'm going to make some larger ones and sew in a loop big enough for the rings to pass through. In playing with the rings, it looks like you can attach them to one end of the strap with a sort of lark's head that doesn't need to be sewed into an actual loop.
I'm using a homemade hammock with some of that thick blue Byer rope right now, but I have some 2.7mm spyderline on the way, which should be here in a day or two. I'll give the setup a whirl with both and post some pics later on.
Thanks again for all the help. Assuming I feel confident enough in the garda, I think this is a great setup. The four rings are about all that's different than a normal rope and tree-hugger setup and they weigh under 2oz. which is fine by me.
nickelanddime
11-06-2007, 19:23
http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/files/3/7/8/gardahitchgonewide.JPGHey, just got home and decided to test your idea of separate rings. I started with a normal garda hitch through two separate rings then pulled them apart and as their relative angle changed the knot deformed a little but if you use your imagination you can still see it there...
It works great, the cord pointed directly at you would be the support and the end off at an odd angle is the excess you'd pull to tighten it. When tightening the rings do a funny little butterfly thing.
From the way the rings pinch down on the excess cord you can see it would work with any angle but I would suggest constructing the hitch as you see in the pic as it is much easier than trying to keep everything held together and tighten at the same time.
I was trying to attach the pic but I've had too many beers with dinner and it's not making sense right now:confused: , please just check my gallery and it should be the only pic"garda hitch with separate rings"
hangnout
11-06-2007, 20:37
:D
I was trying to attach the pic but I've had too many beers with dinner and it's not making sense right now:confused:
And when are you going to test that version? After dinner?:D :eek:
nickelanddime
11-06-2007, 21:50
:rolleyes: Yeah, after fiddling around all over my apt. complex trying to think of a good way to test it(no big trees) I decided to just wrap the strap around the end of a parking tie and run the rope up my arm like a mover's strap... worked pretty good, not very scientific but the rope had ample opportunity to slip while I drug the tie back and forth:D
The separate rings are more of a novelty anyway, I've been thinking about ways to do away with rings altogether... should have some time soon to machine a couple prototypes
nickelanddime, awesome! I didn't get a chance to play with my rings tonight, but I'm going to spend a couple of hours tomorrow.
One thing I did find and I don't recall seeing it before. If you're doing a lark's head to attach the rings to the strap, if you do a half turn in the loop before you sew it, the finished lark's head comes out much cleaner, kind of like a windsor knot.
I'm looking at making something a la warbonnetguy's modified figure 9 from scratch. I was just asking over on that endless thread if anyone knew a good place to get some decent aluminum stock to start from.
nickelanddime
11-07-2007, 13:21
thanks for the info on twisting the webbing, very useful.
as far as aluminum goes, the big box hardware stores usually carry something for a jacked up price(still under $10 though). I work for a machine shop so I get all the scrap I like, I'd suggest checking out a scrap yard for selection's sake if you can't find what you want at the stores(it's cheaper too)
I tried Home Depot at lunch. They had some AL bar, but it was too narrow or not thick enough. I found what seems like a good place on-line last night: http://www.onlinemetals.com
I ordered several feet of 3/16" 6061 T6, which is supposed to be very strong, for about $18 delivered. Should get here next week sometime. I think I'm going to make a homemade cleat that has two slots for threading the strap through.
I'll play with the rings in the meantime, but I really like the idea of the cleat. It seems more secure to me and, even over-built for peace of mind, I think I can do it lighter
i've been using online metals for years. they aren't cheap but they are extremely convenient for small quantities.
i have other sources for 7075 blocks for milling (milling 7075 is like milling steal compared to butteryness of 6061)
Ah, I'm glad they're a reputable place. My only concern is that they're in Seattle, so it'll probably take forever to get here. I'm not so good with the patience.
I thought it might be a bit expensive, but anything under $20 pretty much slips under the radar anyway.
Maybe I'll grab some 7075 to mess with next time. I was considering it, but everyone seemed to be using the 6061 and I thought it might be tougher to work with. My poor Dremel's already going to get quite a workout, I'm guessing.
6061 is more common and less expensive than 7075. As well as slightly less tough and strong.
Most high strength applications use 6061 since its easier to source and less expensive.
wow. thats nice. I think a mooring hitch would work well, they cinch apun weight, and release easily.
nickelanddime
11-09-2007, 11:23
wow, after looking up the mooring hitch I think I might need to replace my normal quick release knot(expoding half hitch? see gallery) with it. I've never had my usual knot come undone but it's nice to see that the mooring hitch has twice the pinch points
Just Jeff
11-18-2007, 21:04
This is crazy - I hadn't read this thread or the other one, but I have been thinking of ways to use cord with a quick-adjust, but w/o making a new gadget. The garda hitch looks like it'll work great.
Found another easy way this weekend using one ring and the Spectra...I'll post pics in another thread when I download them. Not sure it's any easier than this method, but it only uses one ring.
Question - does the type of cord matter with the garda hitch? I'm thinking high-friction stuff like braided sheaths vs slippery stuff like the BPL Air Core.
hangnout
11-18-2007, 21:12
I have been using the garda hitch for a while now. It does work better with a cord that has some grip. I have tried it with my bare spectra and I have to put the stopper knot in for sure. It works great with the stock HH line.
hangnout
11-18-2007, 21:15
Found another easy way this weekend using one ring and the Spectra...I'll post pics in another thread when I download them. Not sure it's any easier than this method, but it only uses one ring.
Looking forward to the pics. I have thought about using one ring on one end to cinch up too and leave the double rings on the other end for small adjustments.
Love the Garda Hitch! Keeps me with lightweight stock HH rope (way lighter than webbing), quick and easy set up with the rings. TreeDweller's pics show it tied correctly . . . I use a bight on the last part of the hitch between the rings for quick release. Have been tying a half-hitch with the tail for peace of mind.