Shamu IX UQ Tryout

[KefWalker]

It's been a few weeks since I've received my Shamu IX UQ and I finally had a chance to try it out this weekend. Night temps here in ABQ have finally dropped into the 40's and high 30's *F so I decided to test the Shamu plus one insert. Friday night the temps got down to 46*F, and with just the Shamu, I was comfortable. I wasn't "toasty" warm, but comfortable enough to sleep the night through. I'm an average to cool sleeper, so I reckoned 45*F or so is the limit I'd want to take the Shamu.

Saturday night the temps got down to 36*F and with the Shamu and an IX insert, I was comfortable and felt the same warmth as Friday night with just the Shamu. So, for me, I can go down to 45*F with the Shamu and down to 36*F with the Shamu + insert.

On both nights I slept with my WM MegaLite used as a TQ, and dressed in poly bottoms, mid-weight wool socks, and a light-weight fleece long-sleeved shirt. My goal is to get down to the teens, 15*F or so, so my next test will be a down UQ, alone and combined with the Shamu. I just have to save up for that one...:). Here are a few pics:

Shamu with insert:
http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/files/8/6/3/0/wbbb-shamu-1.jpg

Shamu packed (10 oz.):
http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/files/8/6/3/0/shamu_ix_2_layers.jpg

Shamu + insert packed (12 oz.):
http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/files/8/6/3/0/shamu_ix_3_layers.jpg

[Buffalo Skipper]

Good information. Thanks a bunch. I hope to hear more on these products as the seasonal weather approaches and they are used more often.

[BillyBob58]

Thanks for the report. Please clear up something for me: How many layers of IX are in the basic Shamu? You have the nylon outer shelln then obviously at least one layer of IX. Then is there an additional layer of IX, plus an small area of IX called an "Insultube"? So, if it does, the Shamu has 2 full layers of IX plus the small butt/torso area IX?

So when you say "PLUS insert", are we talking total 3 layers of IX plus the small "insultube?

[KefWalker]

Yes on all counts BillyBob58...:) The Shamu comes with two layers of IX plus a small piece of IX sandwiched in between the 2 layers in the back area, and a ripstop nylon outer cover. I also added a separate IX insert to bring the total to 3 layers of IX.

Further observations: the Shamu, and insert, comes with grosgrain loops sewn in each corner and shock cord as suspension. The Shamu fit very well along the sides of my WBBB, but the head and foot ends gapped down. To snug up the head and foot ends, I was faced with tightening the suspension so much that I lost a lot of the air gap underneath because it was snugged too tight. The alternative was to loosen the suspension so that the differential cut could work, but that would leave gaps at the ends. I think an improvement to the design would be to add channels, or at least a few loops, along the ends for shock cord to be threaded through and easily snugged up without having to overtighten the whole UQ. My sewing skills are modest, as in none, or I'd make that mod and try it out myself. I think I could have gone down to the mid-30s*F with just the Shamu if I could have gotten the suspension just right. Testing continues....

[dejoha]

One of the mods I'm going to make on my IX UQ is to add shock cord and channels on the ends so I can get a better seal on the head/foot sections.

I like the sil cover -- is that now standard? Mine doesn't have it. What does that add to the qualities of the UQ?

[KefWalker]

Yes--that's what I think the Shamu needs to help snug up the ends while allowing the bottom to hang without undue pressure. The sides seem to hug the hammock just fine. TTTGear sells a 2-layer IX UQ with a nylon cover (Shamu) and a 2-layer IX UQ without nylon cover. The nylon cover keeps the outside of the UQ clean of twigs, leaves and debris, although it's probably not a major issue without it I imagine. It also adds a bit of wind and rain resistance and maybe ups the insulation value a smidgen.

[BillyBob58]

Yes on all counts BillyBob58...:) The Shamu comes with two layers of IX plus a small piece of IX sandwiched in between the 2 layers in the back area, and a ripstop nylon outer cover. I also added a separate IX insert to bring the total to 3 layers of IX.

Further observations: the Shamu, and insert, comes with grosgrain loops sewn in each corner and shock cord as suspension. The Shamu fit very well along the sides of my WBBB, but the head and foot ends gapped down. To snug up the head and foot ends, I was faced with tightening the suspension so much that I lost a lot of the air gap underneath because it was snugged too tight. The alternative was to loosen the suspension so that the differential cut could work, but that would leave gaps at the ends. I think an improvement to the design would be to add channels, or at least a few loops, along the ends for shock cord to be threaded through and easily snugged up without having to overtighten the whole UQ. My sewing skills are modest, as in none, or I'd make that mod and try it out myself. I think I could have gone down to the mid-30s*F with just the Shamu if I could have gotten the suspension just right. Testing continues....

OK, Ed, thanks for the info. It sounds like your experience so far has been exactly the same as mine. When I first got mine last spring ( not a Shamu, but the very 1st model Mac made which was cut to exactly mimic a HHSS pad), even with 2 layers I was struggling to stay warm into the 50s( NO shell at all, just 2 layers of IX). Then Mac added Insultubes, I could tell an improvement, but I still wasn't going much below mid 50s. But with use, I guess I figured out how to better hang it so that I had it as loose as possible but not so loose as to have any gaps. So now I have successfully been just barely warm enough into the mid-40s once ( added a torso pad about 0400 when the wind really picked up just to get some luxury warmth). I think if I had adequate wind block from a big tarp I would have slept right through. At 39*F and no wind, again at about 0400 I was not really quite warm enough. Once again added the pad. So looks like about mid 40s for me, so far. But those last two times are a whole lot better than I did at first. The learning curve continues! ( Even though I have not been able to get to freezing, I really like these quilts when you consider weight)

(BTW, it is always my back that gives out first, my butt and legs are always fine- kind of reverse CBS)

[KefWalker]

Yes--a mirror image of my experience--back cool, butt and legs fine. I really think the key is the fit at the ends. The stock suspension of shockcord tied at the corners just doesn't do the IX UQ justice. There needs to be a better method of snugging up the ends.

Dejoha plans to add a channel mod to the ends so I'm very interested to see if that makes a difference. I think there's a trade-off between getting the suspension right and the amount of time it takes to get it right. I think channel mods to the ends will speed up hang time and improve the UQ's cold weather performance--at least that's my theory anyway...;-).

[MAD777]

Thank you very much, Ed, for your valuable insites. This being a new revelation in insulation, all the feedback is we can get is particularly valuable.

I'm sitting on some IX and comments like yours has me planning on sewing about an 8" strip of nylon to the ends with channels in that for the shock cord. I think the nylon wil cinch up better than the IX and therefore create a beter seal.

[BillyBob58]

Thank you very much, Ed, for your valuable insites. This being a new revelation in insulation, all the feedback is we can get is particularly valuable.

I'm sitting on some IX and comments like yours has me planning on sewing about an 8" strip of nylon to the ends with channels in that for the shock cord. I think the nylon wil cinch up better than the IX and therefore create a beter seal.

I think if I had some raw IX and had a sewing machine and skill to run it, I would have take an INNER layer of nylon of a certain size, and sew to it an outer layer of IX which is a bit bigger. Then maybe sew another somewhat larger layer of IX to that, and so on for however many layers desired. That is just something I would love to try. Then maybe add an even larger outer layer of DWR/wind resistant nylon, or not. But I just "feel" like this would be a good way to maintain a small gap even after cinching up the ends and edges nice and tight, and I'd like to to try it out.

Or I might do it like I do my WB Climashield "Yeti". An inner layer of nylon with a ~ sq.yd ( torso size ) of Climashield sewn somewhat loosely to it. Then I drape it (inside out) over several pillows to simulate the shape it assumes when I am using it. Then I add a piece of same size CS draping it loosely over the first layer, and sew it on. Or, I just do as WBG recommended and sew the edges of the 2nd layer ~ 3/4-1" form the edges of the 1st layer. This prevents compression of the layers, even though all layers are the same size.

[MAD777]

I think if I had some raw IX and had a sewing machine and skill to run it, I would have take an INNER layer of nylon of a certain size, and sew to it an outer layer of IX which is a bit bigger. Then maybe sew another somewhat larger layer of IX to that, and so on for however many layers desired. [/U]

That sounds like a perfect approach to optimixe the efficiency of IX (maintaining the air gap) and provide for a pretty failsafe setup! I think you're on to something there, BillyBob!

[WLMiller54]

I just purchased a IX UQ from Mac a couple of weeks ago and started to ponder some of the same issues. I have the following points to add.....


It is warm and light
The air gaps at the top are very difficult to seal
it NEEDS a outer shell (Too delicate) - I will be adding one this week


I am pondering if this is really a UQ or a UQ add on. I think it would be great to add to my existing UQ.

I am also pondering adding a Nylon \ Syl-Nylon header and footer to help seal the gaps. I theorize that adding a channel directly to the IX might bunch it too much and actually hurt the seal. However, if I add a 6" insulated seal channel to the top \ bottom it may form the seal without bunching the IX adversely .

I am also pondering adding a light insulation when I add the outer shell.

[BillyBob58]

That sounds like a perfect approach to optimixe the efficiency of IX (maintaining the air gap) and provide for a pretty failsafe setup! I think you're on to something there, BillyBob!

Of course, the down side is that the inner layer of nylon would provide essentially NO insulation, adding ONLY weight. About the only benefit of the added weight would be allowing the inner layer to be pulled snug against your back without also pulling the IX snug. The question is how much benefit would that provide. I suspect a good bit. At least an outer layer might provide some additional wind and moisture block, depending on what material is used. Now, you could just use another layer of IX for this inner layer. But, when pulled tight against your back, would that provide any more insulation than the plain nylon? And if it did not, or was only very slightly warmer, what would the cost and weight be compared to a piece of nylon? Just thinking out loud. ;) But TeeDee has done some projects of this nature, and they have been very warm for him.


I just purchased a IX UQ from Mac a couple of weeks ago and started to ponder some of the same issues. I have the following points to add.....


It is warm and light
The air gaps at the top are very difficult to seal
it NEEDS a outer shell (Too delicate) - I will be adding one this week


I am pondering if this is really a UQ or a UQ add on. I think it would be great to add to my existing UQ.

I am also pondering adding a Nylon \ Syl-Nylon header and footer to help seal the gaps. I theorize that adding a channel directly to the IX might bunch it too much and actually hurt the seal. However, if I add a 6" insulated seal channel to the top \ bottom it may form the seal without bunching the IX adversely .

I am also pondering adding a light insulation when I add the outer shell.

For some reason, I have had no trouble getting an excellent seal at foot and head with mine, as long as it is adjusted so that the top edge is an inch or so below my neck/shoulder intersection. It really seals up good. The only thing is I wonder if it is then a little snug under my back for full benefit. It is always plenty loose from butt down. I hang it as loose as possible and still maintain a seal, hoping to minimize tightness under my back. The experimentation with adjustment is probably why I can now get into the 40s, but when I 1st got it high 50s seemed to be pushing it.

So far, my no-shell Mac IX UQ has proven remarkably durable. Considering it appears to be tissue paper! It is certainly about 10 times more durable than my original HH SS OCF pad, though I have managed to keep that beat up rascal going for 3 years now. I am not yet sure if the 2 layers of IX are as warm as the HH OCF pad plus space blanket. But it might be once I test it inside the HH undercover as a HH pad replacement. So far I have really only used it by itself. I am also looking forward to testing it as HH pad augmentation, or inside a PeaPod.

The major advantage of trying to get by without any shell is weight. With my HHSS style IX UQ, both layers are only ~ 8 oz, FULL LENGTH! Even if I am dissapointed that I have not yet been able to approach freezing with both layers, if I can only consistently do mid to high 40s, is that not great? For full length, 8 oz? Plus with apparently pretty good wind and water resistance and quick drying built in?

So, I am really quite happy with the IX all things considered. But I do wonder if I could get more out of it by adding that inner layer to allow a "pull snug/seal tight around edges" approach hopefully while maintaining a small full length air gap.

[MacEntyre]

One of the mods I'm going to make on my IX UQ is to add shock cord and channels on the ends so I can get a better seal on the head/foot sections.


Yes--that's what I think the Shamu needs to help snug up the ends while allowing the bottom to hang without undue pressure.
Folks, before you do that mod, try tightening your suspension. You might be pleasantly surprised at the results. :)


I think if I had some raw IX and had a sewing machine and skill to run it, I would have take an INNER layer of nylon of a certain size, and sew to it an outer layer of IX which is a bit bigger.
All Molly Mac Gear IX UQs, whether covered with nylon or not, are constructed with a differential cut. That's why I suggest tightening the suspension as a way of closing the end gaps.


I like the sil cover -- is that now standard? Mine doesn't have it. What does that add to the qualities of the UQ?


TTTGear sells a 2-layer IX UQ with a nylon cover (Shamu) and a 2-layer IX UQ without nylon cover.
The Shamu and Baby Orca have nylon covers on the outside.

All TTTGear IX UQs are Molly Mac Gear products, designed by yours truly. :rolleyes:

[KefWalker]

I tried tightening the Shamu as much as I could and I got the ends somewhat snug (the foot end better than the head end). The problem was the bottom of the UQ was stretched tight against the WB and didn't have any air gap despite the differential cut (which is substantial and really well-designed).

Now, I may be laboring under an apprehension here in that what I think is too snug on the bottom may not be too snug after all. IOW, having the UQ really tight against the bottom may be OK. I'll test it that way and see if it makes any difference. I really want to get this dialed in because the weight saving is terrific--only 12 oz for 3-layers (Shamu + IX insert + stuff sack)--and even when I had gaps at the ends, I was OK (not toasty warm) at 36*F. If I can seal it up properly, I think it will be even better. Testing continues....

[MacEntyre]

Another tip... make sure your head and neck are not in the UQ. Your shoulders should be spreading out the head end and closing the edge gaps.

[KefWalker]

MacEntyre, I tried to set up the Shamu the same way it shows in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5nNNnMXl-c

I pulled the head end down to my shoulders but still got a gap there. I'm wondering if attaching the shockcord over the gathered end of the WB might not be the best way. I'll have to play with attachment points like over the ridgeline, spreading out the shockcord at the ends a bit, etc.

I really want to get the most out of the Shamu--I think it has the potential to offer the best weight/warmth ratio of the synthetic options (maybe even down). I just want to make sure I'm deploying it optimally.

[MacEntyre]

...wondering if attaching the shockcord over the gathered end of the WB might not be the best way.
That's how I do it on all hammocks. It works well on the WBBB.

[dejoha]

Mac, I think my desire to add the channels on the head/foot is based on my experience and observations when I've set up the UQ for other people and made adjustments for myself. My kids, especially, need this mod since they aren't big enough to flatten the sides. I think these are excellent quilts for them since they are so light to pack, but I want to be sure the ends seal. A smaller version might work, but when I spend the money, I want something that will grow with them and the full length is perfect.

Also, fiddling for a perfect fit on something like this often takes a second person, which I don't always have on hand. Getting up in the night further complicates the issue because I'm not awake enough to fiddle. Just a little shock cord would be enough for these instances, I think. No hassle, no worry, no fiddling or adjusting.

[MacEntyre]

My kids, especially, need this mod since they aren't big enough to flatten the sides.
Good point. I've recommended 3/4 UQs for many people shorter than 5'5".

[WLMiller54]

In my testing, I have tried for quite awhile trying to get the seal right. No luck. I am actually getting pretty frustrated with it. The best seal I have been able to make has been using "Triangle-things" to pull the suspension forward and change the angle of the suspension. However, if I do get a seal on my shoulders I quickly loose it again if I move.

I have not been able to seal the feet at all.

At this moment I am adjusting the suspension using cord locks at each end with suspension directly over each hammock end.

I was pretty excited to get this, the reviews and videos look pretty straight forward and easy to use. My experience is a lot different.

I am using a WBBB, and am 5'11, 200ish pounds.

Thanks for your input.

[MacEntyre]

If your IX UQ edges are so sensitive to leakage that cold air pours in when you move, it's too loose. Try tying a knot in the shock cord to shorten it several inches, and then hang it on the hammock whippings.

[lizzie]

Good point. I've recommended 3/4 UQs for many people shorter than 5'5".

I am 5'6" and have had no problems at all with my 3/4 Baby Orca's fit on my Eno DN.

That said, for those having trouble with open ends, wouldn't attaching a velcro strip along the bottom of the hammock and on the quilt solve the problem? For those who do not want to sew onto the bottom of their hammock, fabric glue should work, wouldn't it?

[dejoha]

I just did another hang last night here in St. George, Utah. The low was 48 F, calm conditions. I was wearing shorts, a light fleece top, bamboo socks, and a hat. My top quilt was a burrow by stormcrow and I had the IX quilt on the bottom. The hammock was the GT Nano 7.

I had a family member help adjust and get the quilt to fit and these are my observations:

The quilt fit fine around my shoulders, but we couldn't get a solid seal around my feet. My feet didn't bother me too much, but if I rolled or shifted too much on my back, I would lose the seal around my shoulders. In other words, if I could sleep in the same position all night, I could get a good seal around my shoulders, but not around my feet.

The trouble is that I don't sleep in one position all night long. Last night I shifted to my side a few times and I could tell when the seal was broken.

I think that the addition of shock cord in the ends would help make the IX UQ a little more flexible in adapting to shifting positions during the night.

In my test last night, I slept okay, but there were times I was tempted to get another UQ. I am really hopeful I can take this UQ to lower temps, bit right now, I can only get to the 50s because of how I gain/lose heat through the night.

I'll see if i have time this week during my trip to make some mods to this very promising quilt to see if i can get it to lower temps.

[dejoha]

That said, for those having trouble with open ends, wouldn't attaching a velcro strip along the bottom of the hammock and on the quilt solve the problem

Last night in my delirium, I thought about sewing the IX directly to a hammock. It would make a great seal 100% of the tome, and if you wanted more insulation, you could always add another UQ.

Hmmmmm. This sounds like a new hammock in the making...

[KefWalker]

Ah, I wish I had a sewing talent! Please let us know how that project works out. I just finished watching Doctori and Bonsaihiker's terrific video and I noticed that the IX UG had multiple loops at the head end and was cinched up pretty snug. The Shamu that I have only has a loop at each corner and none in the middle of the ends. I'll fuss with it this weekend and try MacEntyre's tip of shortening up on the shockcord first, and then other cinching combos to see what works to get a better peripheral seal.

[dejoha]

In my experience, shortening the shock cord has a limit in the overall effectiveness because you also can diminish the pocket of air between the hammock and the IX. The IX UQ works differently than most UQs in that there needs to be a gap between the hammock and the quilt to work most effectively. Too tight and you snug the UQ right against the hammock.

[Hanson]

Last night in my delirium, I thought about sewing the IX directly to a hammock. It would make a great seal 100% of the tome, and if you wanted more insulation, you could always add another UQ.

Hmmmmm. This sounds like a new hammock in the making...

I was thinking of this idea as well, but the guy who runs our local gear shop thought that sewing through the hammock would diminish it's integrity and ability to support the rated weight.

Does anyone have any thoughts on that? Because if this could work, I would definitely do it...

[MacEntyre]

In my experience, shortening the shock cord has a limit in the overall effectiveness because you also can diminish the pocket of air between the hammock and the IX.
That's why we make them with a differential cut. Only the inner layer is snug against the hammock, but it has the Torso Heater hanging underneath it to mitigate compression from the snug fit. Compression is what you want to avoid.

Thing1 and I are two very different sized people, and neither one of us has had a problem hanging IX UQs. We hang them pretty tight, so that when wind gets under the tarp, it won't get under the IX UQ.

I don't mean to argue, Dejoha, but my experience has been the opposite of yours!

[BillyBob58]

That's why we make them with a differential cut. Only the inner layer is snug against the hammock, but it has the Torso Heater hanging underneath it to mitigate compression from the snug fit. Compression is what you want to avoid.

Thing1 and I are two very different sized people, and neither one of us has had a problem hanging IX UQs. We hang them pretty tight, so that when wind gets under the tarp, it won't get under the IX UQ.

I don't mean to argue, Dejoha, but my experience has been the opposite of yours!

MacEntyre, is it possible(within reason anyway) to hang them too tight?

[MacEntyre]

MacEntyre, is it possible(within reason anyway) to hang them too tight?
Of course, but I believe the differential cut significantly reduces the risk of losing insulation value from pulling the shock cord too tight. The required air gaps are maintained by the Torso Heater and the outer layer of IX, regardless of how tight you hang it.

[MacEntyre]

After reviewing the pictures in Rat's posting, it appears that some Molly Mac Gear IX UQs are not made correctly. They are supposed to have darts in each corner, and two more darts in each end between the corners.

Do any of you have IX UQs that lack these darts?

- MacEntyre

[dejoha]

I just saw your other post. I'm going to check my UQ in a few moments.

[dejoha]

I don't mean to argue, Dejoha, but my experience has been the opposite of yours!

Oh, no argument here. It seems clear that I am either doing it wrong and/or my quilt lacks the darts on the ends. I think my understanding was different in that this quilt needs a little gap between the hammock and the IX. I've never been able to achieve that in practice very well, but that was my impression.

I am eager to try the quilt again over the next few days. I'm running out now to check the quilt for darts.

[MacEntyre]

About the gap... forget about the gap.

The construction of the IX UQ makes certain that there will be a gap, no matter how tight you hang it. Just focus on eliminating openings along the edges, on the sides and at each end, so that no air spills in.

[dejoha]

About the gap... forget about the gap.

The construction of the IX UQ makes certain that there will be a gap, no matter how tight you hang it. Just focus on eliminating openings along the edges, on the sides and at each end, so that no air spills in.

Thanks Mac. I'm going to try this again and worry less about the gap. My real worry now is the gap on the ends. I'll get some photos back to you tomorrow.

[MacEntyre]

Folks, I just spoke with Darby at Tree to Tree Trail Gear. We agreed that it would be best to make a design change.

We will use a 1.1 ripstop nylon channel at each end, adding only a few grams of weight.

That will provide the solution for those who are not able to make the ends of their IX UQ close up.

[KefWalker]

I just got back from vacation and just catching up on this thread. I had a chance to really spend time with the Shamu in an effort to adjust the hang and no matter how I adjusted it, I still ended up with a gap at one end. The temps are low enough now to feel the effect of the gap and when it is open, there is enough of a difference in warmth to be felt. I tried tightening the UQ to close up both ends, and got it so tight at one point that, although both ends were closed, the effect of the differential cut was negated and I could feel the cold through my back and butt.

My Shamu is one of the first from TTT Gear, and it is well made with the darts in each end, so that aspect of the design can be ruled out. I really think end channels would improve the hang and if I could sew, they would have been in by now. MacEntyre has designed a lightweight UQ with plenty of potential to go lower than the mid-40's--I just think it needs a design tweak to make it even better.

I'm glad you're trying the end channels, MacEntyre. I think they will make a difference in hang, by letting the Shamu's differential cut work at optimum while allowing the UQ ends to close up. Please let me know if I can get them added to the Shamu I have.

[MacEntyre]

I'm glad you're trying the end channels, MacEntyre.
First, we are trying Draft Dodgers. They are a lot simpler.


Please let me know if I can get them added to the Shamu I have.
Hold tight, Ed! I'm not certain under what circumstances they are necessary.

Let's wait to hear from the half dozen folks who have dodgers.

[KefWalker]

I'm holdin'...:) I truly believe the Mac IX UQs have not been tested to their full potential. I think the Shamu, for example, can get me down to the low-40s/high-30s without a problem if I can only get the hang/fit right. With the IX insert that I have and a good fit, I should be able to get down to the low-30s, maybe low-20s for only 12 oz. plus maybe an ounce or 2 for mods--that's an excellent weight/warmth ratio!